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Why the game directions arent clear and we may be playing it "wrong"(Tunneling - Meta Perks)
First i apoligize for any mistakes since english is not my first language, i neve write on forums but since i like this game im going to raise what i think is the right discussion that includes both survivors and killers together as players
I started playing the game a couple of weeks ago and I've been on the forums for quite some time now.
The first and most thing i see on the forums are the survivors mains complaining about tunneling and camping and at the same time killers mais complaining about the meta perks(Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, etc) and the "hold W meta". Which is weird since usually on a game one side should be clearly stronger or both equal, but here is a different case, which i will elaborate further bellow
I study law and love to read all kinds of books and things such as lores, i have not been in depth in the dbd lore but from the things i have seen the entity itself is not only about killing the survivors but the torture they suffer ( hence the emblems that award for using the killers powers and chasing) but the game dont give clear directions on that and make someone playing as killer think that "killing" is the main and only goal.
"Like a deity, it surrounds the area, closing in on me as its Killers hunt me. It does not seem to be dangerous in itself. Not until you are caught and the Killer hangs you from one of the abhorrent Hooks. I have ended up there over and over and every time I yearn for both release as well as escape. Pain melts with fear in a most horrid way. Yet I return to it, more or less every night. Once on the Hook, Entity takes over, pulling one upwards to something else." ~ Benedict Baker's Journal, November 1896
The rule for the killers is on a clear way "kill and kill" without looking into the "torture" part of the game that means "and endless cicle of torture and pain" like seen on the text above from the in game journals that says "i yearn for both a release as well as escape" as release being death on hook, this shows that it doesnt matter if the survivor dies on hook or escapes, what matter is the pain and suffering they have while being stuck there with the killer but that isnt very clear on the game, and because of that those who play killers think that killing is the main goal of the game and that if they dont kill everyone or with all 4 escape its considered a loss (i used to think like that) and because of that they start opressing the survivors with tactics such as camping and tunneling when almost all gens are completed and they only have a few hooks and because of that the devs need to create ways to counter them (the killers tactics) and end up adding perks like Decisive Strike and Borrowed Time, it makes the game "toxic" in both ways, killers that face those perks and survivors that need to use them to not be tunneled just after being unhooked.
The survivors want to escape and not "survive" and the killers simply want the kill without the "torture" part. But this is a big problem, the killer perks were made for "torture" and not simply killing but because of the new enviroment of only sacrifices the devs have made the survivors perks for escaping and not simply "surviving" and that is the source of the problems we see on the forums. Killers complain about the looping and perks because they want just "kills" and survivors complain about camping and tunneling because they want just "escapes"
The main point of this is to get the players together on the main problem of the game that is in its core
If the devs make a more clear path on what the game is supossed to be it will benefit both sides
For those who came all the way here thanks for reading all of this, hope to have a nice debate with you all on the points that some of you might desagree with me and wish that in the end we can come up with suggestion to the devs to make this game good for all players.
Comments
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The lore stuff aren't related to actual game balancing.
Feels like you had superficial understanding and treated the end goals of both sides black and white, Survive or kill.
Never really understood the major issues with the game. Why are killer complaining with the looping? Maybe they don't have the time to deal with it. How do we give them time to deal with it?
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i didnt have a superficial understanding, its quite the oposite, sorry if it came that way, what i said is that the players are playing the game as if the objectives are kill and survive only and that its why everyone complains about tunneling and camping, as they are ways to "secure a kill". My point was just that the goals are not black and white and the game is meant to include everything from the mindgames to chases as the goals and not just as means to get a kill and survive
When it comes to looping it was just an example not the main issue, killers compain about the "god windows" in some maps that allow for constant looping.
Now on how to give time for them is one of the point i raised this talk, im not simply giving answers to some problems but trying to get everyone together on the general issue instead of the regular "killers bad" "survivors bad" treads on the forums
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i replied but it dissapeared._.
What i said in the erased comment was that i didnt mean to say that the goals are "kill" and "survive" but that the players are seeing them as such.
Things like mindgames and looping and chases are treated like means to a goal(that is kill or escape) and not goals themselves
I dont want simply to give answers to the small problems like "make bt 3s only" but im looking to discuss with others the core of the game and what are the goals for the killers and survivors in game or what they could be.
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Interesting read, and a different perspective.
My take. Regardless of what the developers "want" the aim of the game to be (and how/if the rewards reflect that), people playing the game see it as an "us versus them" (maybe they should), and want to "win". I'm willing to bet most people would take a fun 4k game with minimal BP, over a sweat fest 0k with a ton of BP (Yes I know that wouldn't happen but hopefully that articulates my point).
There really isn't any "torturing" on the hook if you have 4 survivors teabagging and clickety clicking at you from the exit gate.
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yes i get your point and it is right, the clickety click survivors comes from what i said before , the killers have the tools to torture but since they started going for the 4k only the devs gave the survivors more tools to escape then simply "surviving" and thats why a good survivor is stronger then a good killer and why there is even a possibility within the game for survivors to make fun of the killer
Indeed it is hard to fix it since like you said people will go for the "win" always , what i look for is to change what the win means as to instead of simply getting a 4k as an end goal , making all the things within the match goals themselves, thats why i used the term "torture".
I have seen people complain (Im not 100% sure if its right or wrong) that the game is design only for new players not taking into account the high mmr like a competitive game like league of legend does (making changes and explaining in which "elo" they were necessary), this might also be part of the problem.
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Yeah I understand. I've heard a few people say its all about the entity wanting to offer survivors hope, then take it away.
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Do not worry, I make them suffer so much that they ragw quit even when in a swf. Rofl.
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Getting out looped, find someone else to chase. There's a reason gens take time to do, but map designs also play a part in this and some maps are large disadvantages for some killers.
If I can't catch a survivor who is very good at looping or a God loop area is still perfectly usable, I look for someone else and get the survivor to pallet drop. Sometimes pallet respecting isn't the best option, take take stun and the pallet is gone if you break it.
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The problem is that in the game (especially in higher MMR, and before that with emblems to reach the "red ranks") you need to get a lot done, and this is still an achievement, even though it means nothing as you can stack points pretty fairly. If they would update some old designs they could overhaul the game to make it feel fresher, the old blood web? refresh it!
Perk system? We don't need 3 tier perks. we need more interactions for survivors after a certain amount of time it gets stale and people only want to loop the killer, as it is rewarding to do successfully, the killer can only apply pressure, but he is more of an antagonist to this whole game.
You don't want to farm X-hours just to unlock that one perk on your main character because it already has the other ones you unlocked, to buy a perk that is literally "necessary" to compete. If you read ANYTHING on this Forum, see on youtube or hear it from someone who plays the game, they will all tell you "just use ___, and you win" but the truth is, I'm not willingly playing 200h just to unlock a perk, and maybe i get lucky and it comes in the weekly store. I want to play to become better, adapt, and have a feeling I became better.
The current meta is "run these perks, or play only 3 killers who are super strong, or you lost" and this mentality has to change. Same with survivor, what if I don't have the survivor unlocked that has the perk "Decisive strike" shouldn't I be able to still win my games without it? Or is it considered Pay to win?
Everyone can argue "you can unlock everything with play-time" but the sheer amount of grind this game has to unlock something isn't fun... offerings and items? 100%, that makes me adapt and try to use new stuff. but abilities that should be there for everyone?... idk. I can't make a viable build if I don't want to pump more money in this game to compete with "meta".
Before this game came out there were others, no game stood long in its pride, the best example was this monster hunter game that had such a cool concept, but the gameplay loop was horrible. The lore was cool but had nothing to do with the game itself.
league of legends, you have rivals on the same team, is the lore awesome? HELL YA, is the game good? 'eh, i mean im not really playing anymore...
Lore and Gameplay never work in a multiplayer game like in a single-player game, and even there are limitations "oh i took 404299 bullets, but in the cut-scene, i get kicked once from the main villain and now I lost everything".
The "being scared of the killer" is barely an argument, especially since most survivors don't look like they get tortured, they look they get ready to go to the comic con. My best example is "trickster" every killer is like "yeah he like is this dark twisted person" and the trickster be like "yeah he's good with knifes".
Lore is often just a deeper mechanic for people who are interested, but it shouldn't be taken seriously for such a game, especially with the addition of remembering that it is just a game, and the lore kind of is "half-assed" (and i mean it in a good way) where they probably didn't expect the game to get that big, it was a killer who kills humans, that was it. The lore is build around the game, not the other way around
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The Survivors goal is to escape (either Personal, or to facilitate the escape of others depending on Player personality), and the Killers goal is to Kill them. The "torture" the Entity (BHVR) (should) wants is the engaging struggle between the two sides to achieve their respective goals.
As this game is asymmetrical, it's expected that not all Survivors will Survive, and the Killer will not always Kill all Survivors in a "balanced" match.
However, a 2K/2E can feel especially different for each side (if it's "fair and balanced"):
The Killer might feel like the entire game was a sweatfest and they only reached 50% of their goal.
The Survivors that escaped of course escaped, but the Survivors that died had to have at least helped the Survivor team reach 100% of their Generator goal.
The reason that camping and tunneling is so prevalent is because it's the easiest method to at least reach 50% of the Killers goal and more effective for the Killer to reach 100% of their only goal.
Outside of adding mechanics that punish the Killer for trying to camp/tunnel, what needs to be done is to give them another "core-objective" that they can try to 100%. Which IMO should be some kind of Hook-chain count for a reward. (The answer is neither Kills or Hooks, but a combination of the two)
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It’s interesting you bring the lore of the game, but I don’t think the lore is to blame when it comes to the “core” issues with the game.
I would actually say some of these “issues” players have is from their own interpretation of what a balanced game looks like. (I.E. SoloQ sucks because of it’s lack of comms, yet there you sit with kindred while they crouch behind a rock watching you reach phase 2… in which no comms would have trumped that scenario). That’s just one of many examples.
I see many people on these forums claiming that Camping and Tunneling are strategic (because a developer said it is) as a means to excuse the type of Camping that some killer players use where they are only doing it to grief and have made it very clear because they are not interested in winning.
So in reality the problem resides in the fact that that specific player never got to play/engage in the game. THAT is the reason why those survivors complain, not because the killer used the tactic to try to “win”. There are no mechanics to combat a mechanic in which is so easy to accomplish your goal.
I think it’s very important to distinguish the difference because yes while survivors want to “escape” more than anything they want to play the game whether they die at the end or not. Not hang on a hook the entirety of their trial.
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oh no, i never used torture as to say "scarred" i know that after a couple of matches the game loses its "fear" factor , what im saying in torture is the parts of the game like the chases, the mindgames, the killer using its powers and the survivor running away from him, that is the "torture". i agree with you with the meta problem about going with X killer and survivors going with 3 meta perks ands thats why i raised this topic as to find the root of the problem.
You raised a good point about the lore not being part of a multiplayer game and thats it, if we look at the exemple of league of legends, it got an awesome story but it does not affect the gameplay itself ,tthe lore is just to built the world and the character that are part of the game, to explain where they come from and their powers, unlike a game like skyrim where the gameplay is tied with the lore, on that line dbd tries to make both of them and thats the problem, the gameplay is in a direct way connected with the lore where the entity , the killers and the survivors are all there and what they do is dictated by the lore, thats is the problem that you pointed as a multiplayer game isnt bound by the lore, but dbd is , and either the devs should go away from it or go with it, cuz if not we end up with the high mmr problem of a game that is design in a "theatrical" way of a killer going after a survivor and the gameplay that is of a competitive game where everyone is going for the meta and the survivor arent really "afraid to die"
I dont know if i covered your main points but i hope i did, and thanks for bringing those things up
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i dint say the lore is the core issue, i said that a interpretation of it causes the isse, the devs made the game more like a horror movie and not a competitive game, the kill and escape i said are that part of the game where both sides are looking for a win even tho because of the "movie" characteristic i mentioned , there is no "win" , even the devs said that a couple of times but for the balancing of the game made as the win to be 2k.
And i also agree with you on the problem being that the player dont get to play the game if he is simply tunneled and killed and thats why people complain, and thats part of why i raised this topic too, i said that the game should be about the "torture" as in the chases and all the things that happen in the game being ends themselves and not simply means to and end, in other words, every interaction of the killer and survivors are meant to be goals and not simply ways for the killer to kill the survivor, and the mentality that they are is the reason why people camp and tunnel, to secure kills as the "end goal" of the game.
Thank you too for point that part that i agree i wasnt clear about in the main text. This isnt about survivor or killers but both as players playing this game, so both sides views are to be taken here as i want to go deep into what are the roots of the game issues and not the issues themselves
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Yes , thats whats i was talking bout , the lack of the torture element as a goal and not just as a way to get a kill.
The killers is aiming for the survivors both as to torture and to "try" to kill that survivor , because the entity is bringing that survivor back either he escapes or dies in the match , so both ends are the same, what matter is the pain that the survivor went in the match and this is not covered at all in the gameplay goals which comes to killers players as simply "kill all the survivors".
I agree with you in the addition of more core objetives of the game for both killer and survivor as ways to make the match longer and at the same time make the killer the power role again as to prevent survivors from holding the game hostage and at the same time making different ways for the survivors to escape to prevent the killer from taking the game hostage, of course this would mean a major change in the game but still is in the realm of possibility.
The game was never meant to be as competitive as it is today, but since it already is like this the sugestions i made is one to handle both the "lore" point of view (there is no "win" - devs) and the competitive multiplayer one (2K 2E is a win -devs).
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Yes these are problems in the game. I just did a TL;DR version because going into specific details on the problems in the game isn't my point.
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New players: so if killing everyone is my objective, if I kill them as fast as possible I am the winner, right?
DBD: Yes. But actually no.
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