Sabo Redesign

thesuicidefox

What if when you sabo a hook, instead of destroying the hook you add time to a survivor's hook? So where you have 2 minutes on a normal hook, on a sabo'd hook you have 4 minutes.

From a lore perspective this can make sense, as a faulty hook might make it harder for the Entity to suck out your... whatever it sucks out of you.

From a gameplay perspective this can have a lot of benefits.

For the survivors the benefit is obvious: more time on a hook. That makes it harder to camp since doing so will result in a LOT of lost time for the killer. Camping someone on a sabo'd hook would basically be a loss since the others can easily do all the gens, totems, and gates with time to spare to save the guy. Note that this would ONLY affect camping killers, as a killer that leaves the hook won't be affected by the time increase.

For killers, it means no more toxic Sabo BS where someone breaks a hook right in your face. It would also mean something killers have been wanting for a while... SECONDARY OBJECTIVES!! That's right, if sabo worked this way then it gives survivors another objective in that they would want to try and sabo a bunch of hooks to protect themselves from potential campers, thus taking time away from gens to basically provide themselves a bit of insurance for the future (in the same vein as doing all the totems to protect against NOED).

The idea here is to make Sabo more useful and less toxic while giving survivors some extra tools to combat camping while not punishing killers that do not camp.

PS. Obviously there are details that need to be worked out, like how the perks Sabo and Hangman's would work or how long until and under what conditions a hook becomes "fixed", but the main idea is that Sabo = more hook time.

Thoughts?

redsopine1

That would be fun I was forced to dc a match because even after they had both gates open all they did was break every single hook for no reason besides being dicks ao the killer cant even try to score a kill

Sblitcher

Mmmh...This is an excellent idea imho. I approve.

Milo

But then make sabo a channelled action like totem breaking. So you can't do the 99% strat

thesuicidefox

@redsopine1 said:
That would be fun I was forced to dc a match because even after they had both gates open all they did was break every single hook for no reason besides being dicks ao the killer cant even try to score a kill

Yes this is the kind of stuff I mean when I say "toxic Sabo" because there is honestly no way Sabo isn't toxic in it's current form. Stuff like this should never happen, and wouldn't with this sort of change.

@Milo said:
But then make sabo a channelled action like totem breaking. So you can't do the 99% strat

Well there would be no point to 99% a hook. You would just sabo it completely or else you don't get the added time. The whole tactic falls apart and you are left with just doing the whole hook. Again details need to be worked out, but maybe a hook stays sabo'd for something like 5 minutes unless you have Hangman's. That way survivors are incentivized to completely sabo hooks, and if you really want to make a "safe zone" you will need to spend the time doing multiple hooks in an area, taking away time from doing gens.

redsopine1

thesuicidefox said:

@redsopine1 said:
That would be fun I was forced to dc a match because even after they had both gates open all they did was break every single hook for no reason besides being dicks ao the killer cant even try to score a kill

Yes this is the kind of stuff I mean when I say "toxic Sabo" because there is honestly no way Sabo isn't toxic in it's current form. Stuff like this should never happen, and wouldn't with this sort of change.

@Milo said:
But then make sabo a channelled action like totem breaking. So you can't do the 99% strat

Well there would be no point to 99% a hook. You would just sabo it completely or else you don't get the added time. The whole tactic falls apart and you are left with just doing the whole hook. Again details need to be worked out, but maybe a hook stays sabo'd for something like 5 minutes unless you have Hangman's. That way survivors are incentivized to completely sabo hooks, and if you really want to make a "safe zone" you will need to spend the time doing multiple hooks in an area, taking away time from doing gens.

Ikr I mean when they was breaking before gens and gate was open good strategy but then breaking and for no points that's just saying f u were not gonna let you even try to safety pip

Milo

Oh you mean they don't get sabo'ed like not be avaible to use but instead increase the sacrifice okay gotcha i didn't understand it correctly

ad19970

I actually really like this idea a lot. Less frustrating for killer but a nice counter to camping.
I'm guessing killers should also not know what hooks are sabotaged and what aren't or they'll just try and avoid those hooks.

NMCKE

ad19970 said:

I actually really like this idea a lot. Less frustrating for killer but a nice counter to camping.
I'm guessing killers should also not know what hooks are sabotaged and what aren't or they'll just try and avoid those hooks.

Then they can make destroying hooks a ultra rare add-on like BNP.

SmokePotion

@redsopine1 said:
That would be fun I was forced to dc a match because even after they had both gates open all they did was break every single hook for no reason besides being dicks ao the killer cant even try to score a kill

slug them, drop them next to the first saboed hook, shake your head at them till it comes back.

thesuicidefox

@ad19970 said:
I actually really like this idea a lot. Less frustrating for killer but a nice counter to camping.
I'm guessing killers should also not know what hooks are sabotaged and what aren't or they'll just try and avoid those hooks.

Yes, but maybe if you run Hangman's you can see which hooks are sabo'd. Also when you hang someone on a sabo'd hook the icon will be different (eg. a broken hook) which would signal to all players that the hooked guy will have extra time on the hook. Then killers know they can't camp, and survivors know if they do camp to do gens.

pureleeawesome

Ooh, I like this idea.

@thesuicidefox said:
Yes, but maybe if you run Hangman's you can see which hooks are sabo'd. Also when you hang someone on a sabo'd hook the icon will be different (eg. a broken hook) which would signal to all players that the hooked guy will have extra time on the hook. Then killers know they can't camp, and survivors know if they do camp to do gens.

You'll also be able to tell from just the speed of the hooked bar lowering.

Nos37

Idea sounds solid. Three questions, though:

Would you rather have the sabotage effect be an all or nothing affair (the hook time is not doubled unless the hook has been completely sabo'd), or have the sabotage effect be based on how much sabo' progress has been made (a hook that was ~halfway sabo'd adds ~1 minute of sacrifice time)?

Would the above effect be something provided by Saboteur (Survivors without Saboteur have to fully sabo' a hook to get any benefit, while Survivors with Saboteur can add time based on sabo' progress)?

If so, what would be the scaling factor (for each tier) of Saboteur? Speed? Bonus Bloodpoints in the Boldness category since this would be a secondary objective, and stealthy Survivors who would prefer to avoid the Killer would now have a way to rack up Boldness without having to interact with the Killer, yet still contribute to the team?

thesuicidefox

The sabo action should stay as it is now. Letting someone 99% a hook might be a way to counter Hangman's if that perk were to show you sabo'd hooks. You could potentially sneak in last second and finish the sabo to get the bonus time, but you should have to do 100% of the hook to get extra time (so all or nothing). Changing the hook time in small increments might be a bad idea because it's inconsistent. Do you have 3 minutes or 2:45? That can mean a lot.

As far as Saboteur I think it should just let you do the sabo action without a toolbox at 50% speed and then apply 25/50/75% sabo to a hook you get placed on such that you could save time by partially sabo'ing a hook but then only get the bonus time for yourself, OR spend the time to do it all the way so everyone gets bonus time. It would also give the perk some value outside of just the sabo action (otherwise just bring a toolbox and don't waste the perk slot).

@Nickenzie mentioned to have a pink sabo add-on to break a hook like you could now and I like that idea because if it was like the current BNP and was consumed on use then you could in theory allow the hook to stay broken permanently because survivors can only break, at most, 4 hooks. With new hook placements that might make a difference if done properly, or might be a total waste. Killer also has Hangman's which maybe can counter this by having all hooks repair/respawn on 60 seconds or something (not 10 like it is currently only because 4 hook limit). Maybe because of that the add-on should require a specific type of action so it's hard to do it right in front of the killer as they carry (to avoid the previously agreed BS we see with current sabo).

Visionmaker

@Nickenzie said:
ad19970 said:

I actually really like this idea a lot. Less frustrating for killer but a nice counter to camping.

I'm guessing killers should also not know what hooks are sabotaged and what aren't or they'll just try and avoid those hooks.

Then they can make destroying hooks a ultra rare add-on like BNP.

That's actually pretty cool. I like these ideas a lot.

Fair and allows the devs to play with sabo without having to balance the "fun" aspect of it because it wouldn't feel as frustrating.

ad19970

@Visionmaker said:

@Nickenzie said:
ad19970 said:

I actually really like this idea a lot. Less frustrating for killer but a nice counter to camping.

I'm guessing killers should also not know what hooks are sabotaged and what aren't or they'll just try and avoid those hooks.

Then they can make destroying hooks a ultra rare add-on like BNP.

That's actually pretty cool. I like these ideas a lot.

Fair and allows the devs to play with sabo without having to balance the "fun" aspect of it because it wouldn't feel as frustrating.

Exactly. And anything that helps against camping is more than welcome in this game.
I do believe they would have to increase the sabo speed with tollboxes a bit, increase the percantages of saboteur perk to something like 75%, 80 and 85%, to make it more effetcive, and then have all survivors be able to sabo hooks even without tool boxes and the saboteur perk, with a slightly higher speed than saboteur allows right now. Like 60% of the normal sabo speed with tool boxes. This way sabotaging multiple hooks won't seem like wasted time.

redsopine1

SmokePotion said:

@redsopine1 said:
That would be fun I was forced to dc a match because even after they had both gates open all they did was break every single hook for no reason besides being dicks ao the killer cant even try to score a kill

slug them, drop them next to the first saboed hook, shake your head at them till it comes back.

</blockquote True but when the nearest sabo hook is also the distance it takes to wiggle out from a open gate makes slugging useless as there gonna just crawl out the gate ds me the second I pick them up and go for a hook or wiggle out I was not going to put up with that level of bs

George_Soros

@thesuicidefox interesting proposition. Can't say I like it, but maybe I would change my mind if I saw it in action. 
Two notes though. One apparent downside is that even though prolonged hook time may discourage camping, it could potentially discourage saves too, meaning survivors have to put up with the boredom of waiting to be saved, or even worse, tapping space.

Second, I think you're completely wrong about a sabo right in front of a killer being "toxic". It's a bold and respectable move, and funny too. Annoying to some extent (we're talking about DBD, duh), but does require a bit of skill and planning, plus it can be done by sacrificing gen time, so not a pure loss for killer.