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Survivors have gotten stupidly efficient at holding M1 and Hold W
Anyone get that feeling? It's just not possible anymore on certain maps and you're an M1 killer lol.
I'm not even doing anything wrong really, Fast chases and sometimes survivors just not bothering looping just drop pallet then run again, Generators are just popping left and right. Even as a hit and run Wraith it's pretty much pointless with Circle of healing now(revert his nerf pls), Everyone's running around healthy to hold W to another safe pallet when they get injured and it's obnoxious. Generators are designed that each one takes at least two minutes hence you don't get anymore xp after 10 minutes but when your early game is so non existent with your first chase popping three generators if you got awesome RNG then you might as well open the gates.
Guess I just have to bust out my dusty Nurse and Blight now.
By the way Overcome might be a sneak peak of M1 killer's futures if you have no snowball potential.
Comments
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Honestly this feels like the product of years of anti-loop killers biting back. When they first started releasing the anti-loop no mobility killers, survivors complained and were told to just adapt. Then when more were released, survivors complained and were told to just adapt, again.
So they finally adapted and everyone can see how boring it is to play this way, but it's the most effective style of playing so a lot of people will do it, especially because a lot of powers right now seem to follow the philosophy that looping = bad and is then counterbalanced by an inability to actually pressure generators without stacking slowdown on top of slowdown.
It's incredibly frustrating but I can't say I'm shocked. Survivors just finally adapted.
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And all that because BHVR didn't want to fix the fundamental design flaws with their game.
They'd rather band-aid fix things with perks and keep pushing it down the line.
Post edited by Pulsar on25 -
Eh I think survivors have adapted long ago it's just that COH just doubled overall efficiency I reckon I wouldn't have gotten stomped in that match as much as I did if the people I hit were actually still injured when I got to them. Like I arrived to interrupt them healing on their boons but they were fully healed already to do any actual damage and pressure lmao.
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I wouldn't mind this too much if they didn't suddenly have infinite heals that take half the time to heal yourself and others, and can be re-used any number of times.
Now you get punished for chasing, and you get punished for hit-and-run.
Feels like all you can do is hard commit and hope they mess up.
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wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
You see that? It's just that easy. Watch I'll do it with my big toe.
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Killers don't stand a chance.
...but yeah for a lot of killers now running loops can be a death sentence. Just gotta do one loop around a place, leave the pallet up and go to the next one.
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It’s kinda the issue with new killer designs. Why even attempt to loop an artist if holding W is way more consistent?
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Welcome to Survivors being "nerfed" and welcome to Survivors "adapting". but its alright you killers adapt too Ruin+Undying+Pop+Corrupt
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Can you really blame us? With anti loop killers making looping a bad idea we have no choice but to hold w.
Sorry killers find it boring but untill the core issues is fixed I'm not going to kill myself by staying at the loop. I'm going to run.
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Honestly something I've been noticing lately is that killers will chase the first guy they find for too long so really what can you do besides gens
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Nah, its always been here as the depip squad showed years ago. It's just survivors never had a need to push gens so hard because the game was way more broken and they could waste more of the killers time and play more relaxed.
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Well, survivors have just adapted to all these anti loop killers, the devs have created. Ever since Deathslinger (with the exception of Blight) all killers released has had a ranged attack that can attack through pallets and windows, so looping is barely an option anymore. The optimal play is just to hold W and drop pallets early. It's boring, but that's the kind of playstyle the devs have begun to encourage with their recent killers.
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I really don't understand what anti loop killers have to do with this when holding W is just as effective if not more against M1 killers.
People are just naturally learning to be more efficient in general as the game gets older.
The average survivor of 2021 is much better than the ones in 2016.
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I'm gonna agree with this honestly.
The devs have created overall issues for the game, we all know that. However, killers have been saying for years 'just adapt' so now that survivors have, there's an even bigger issue at hand for killers to deal with.
There is issues but now I just imagine all the survivors telling killers to 'adapt' to how things are currently. Which imo, they kinda deserve lol.
I'm not a killer or survivor main but lately seeing all these whiny killers complain about everything, it's just making my survivor bias showcase.(I would actually usually see the killers perspective).
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I've been a DbD player since 2017 and it's kinda funny to see how killers view on chases have changed. It went from "Looping is an exploit", to "Looping is an unintended game mechanic", to "Looping is OP", to "Looping has no counterplay", to "Looping is boring", to where it is now with dropping pallets early and holding W has no counterplay and is boring.
It's beginning to look a lot like the killer equalivent of survivors complaining about said killers that encourage the early drop and W meta, where they just get told to "adapt" and it's "balanced cause they lack 4v1 pressure"
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Survivors used to use looping as a way of wasting time, allowing for many killers to counter it with mindgames, doubling back, bloodlust, or perks like Enduring, Bamboozle, and Spirit Fury.
With the many, many anti-loop killers in the game survivors have been less and less willing to loop anyone, instead insisting on holding W and pre-dropping pallets, making all killers that don't have mobility suffer. Anti-loop killers have made survivors realise that they could be doing something which has the potential to go wrong for them (looping), or they could be doing something which is almost guaranteed to be safe (holding W and pre-dropping).
Anti-loop killers forced the survivors into discovering, learning, and using the pre-drop plan. That's what they have to do with it. They were told to adapt and adapt they did, hurting every killer outside of Blight, Spirit, Nurse, and Billy in the process (then the devs took out Billy anyway).
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If let's say Pig slaps you, do you use your sprint burst to run around a loop and wait, or you hold forward as much as possible and go to the nearest loop when she's getting close to you? That's the exact same thing you do against Doctor, Pyramid, Nemesis whatever.
Funny that you mentioned Billy, because i saw a double engravings main streamer using Brutal Strength because he was starting to get sick of smart survivors pre-dropping pallets in order to not give him a chance to stay in a position where they can get curved.
This idea that survivors suddenly change behaviour based on what killer they're going against is extremely silly. People who want to win don't give a ######### about who they're going against, they just play efficiently and leave.
@GoodBoyKaru Forgot to quote you lol
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The problem is
Killers: There is too many safe or unmindgameable pallets.
Devs add antiloop killers.
Survivors hold W
Devs keep doing big maps.
What they need to do is shrink maps like 30% add pallets that killers actually have a chance of mindgame
And if they wish they can nerf antiloopers.
If they dont eventually we will have and anti W killer or perk and antiloop killers gonna stomp surv.
As I said balance around skill not newbies.
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Consequences of anti-loop killers.
They need to stop releasing this type of characters. We have enough already.
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I have experienced this in my games. I think this is caused by both map designs and the amount of antiloop killers in the game now.
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Yeah, holding W is a very boring but great tactic. For now you could try using Save the Best for Last more, it really helps
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Anti looping killers made the game boring, basically there is not much to do as a survivor that would be more effective than holding W to avoid another hit against an anti loop killer.
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Survivors can effectively mobilize their human and material assets.
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"If let's say Pig slaps you, do you use your sprint burst to run around a loop and wait, or you hold forward as much as possible and go to the nearest loop when she's getting close to you? That's the exact same thing you do against Doctor, Pyramid, Nemesis whatever. "
Yes, however it's what's after that that changes. You get hit and hold W to another tile. Vs non anti-loop killers, you could then try to greed another tile or stay at that tile and loop it. Vs anti-loop killers you'd just drop the pallet and run to the next tile.
At least from my own experience that's what happens, and is certainly what I do (but I also try to loop anti-loop killers because that's funny to me so idk it my personal playstyle really matters).
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In a game environment where gens need 80s, 47s or 38s to be done when there is/are respectively 1, 2 or 3 survivors working on them, survivors clearly don't need to be good loopers.
From my experience, if a trial lasts around 12 minutes or more, average survivors will loose most of the trials, only really good survivors would win.
But fact is trials are lasting 8 to 10 minutes top at high MMR. The game design (gens speed, pallets, windows, semi-infinite, DH, Lithe, hit boost etc...) allows the survivors to do all gens without the need to have any skill.
Only survivors that would fall down in 20 seconds cannot win a trial. Any survivor pre-dropping pallets, holding W and not failing skill checks is good enough to win most trials against all killers beside Nurse. And when you face great survivors, your trials end up with 2 hooks, they all escape.
That's the way it is.
With such a state, at high MMR, 1 hit down should be the normality.
In L4D1, survivors were so strong that all the changes below have been made to balance the game at high level :
- no more T2 weapon (all auto weapons removed, only standard pump-shotgun + uzi)
- no more medkit and no more pills hidden on the map, only 1 pills box/survivors at the start of the round
- 1 tank on every map, random spawns
- no more molotov nor pipe bomb
- Hunter pounce deadstop disabled, you had to one shot them mid-air to prevent a pounce
All those changes came step by step with the level of the community increasing. First everyone played the CEVO mode (1 tank per map) then it was Frustian (CEVO + medkit at start, only pills on the map, only T1 weapons) and then Rotoblin mode (Frustian + pills only at start).
And the game was greatly balanced at high level in Rotoblin mode only.
BHVR should also balance their game depending the MMR level (less pallets, less windows, slower gens, some perks disabled etc...).
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Less pallets eh? *cries in shelter woods*
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Yeah, less pallets to force survivors to optimize their usage, they would be forced to mindgame and to choose wisely the pallets they drop.
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Short of reducing the base terror radius or making other wholesale changes to the core design, there's not much that can be done.
You can make tiles less safe to counter pre-dropping, but good killers will win every single exchange due to the asymmetry. Tiles in this game are almost completely safe or playable for all of 10 seconds at most before the survivor gets hit. And then survivors W and stealth even more.
It's not a unique problem for a live game to encounter, but it presents itself uniquely in DbD because DbD is unique. Players have, in some ways, become better at the game than the devs ever anticipated when they built it.
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The best change would be one hit down and removing Iron Will.
Staying injured would grant the killer extra information with noise you do, that would be the only downside of staying injured.
And with the good loopers around and so many pallets/windows, one hit down would not be too much i guess, reducing chases from 1min30 to 40 seconds.
Also, injure hits could be done when you take hit around a hooked survivor. For protection hits, you would need to use a medkit with a Skyptic agent.
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But again, if you know your team is rushing gens, pre dropping pallets works regardless of the killer.
The real problem isn't that the killers have changed, the problem is that survivors are getting better as the years pass in a game that's not evolving past running in circles and holding a button on static objects while staring at a progress bar.
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Why not make them all spawn on hooks already with a 4% chance to unhook themselves in order to actually play the game?
Srsly some people need to 'git gut'. The game is way more balanced than back in 2016. I play both sides (around 60/40) and have a variety of P3 killers wth all perks. I mix up my builds and don't only run meta..Yes, holding 'w' and pre dropping pallets is annoying but most of my games I still 2k, which according to the devs is the balance they want. The only change they should make is hooks counting more than kills. Getting a 4k is easy but going for 12 hooks is not. They should increase the points you get for hooks and make the actual kill effect pipping less.
I agree some map sizes should be looked into but killers for sure don't need a 1 shot mechanic to be able to "win".
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Do you camp/tunnel ?
At what MMR are you playing ?
I play both sides aswell and did a post with my stats on 16 games in a row at high MMR as a soloQ survivor :
Personal escape rate = 75%
Average # of hooks the killers did = 3,8
Hook rate = 32%
Average # of kills = 1,3
Kill rate = 33%
We are far from 2k average and far from a balanced game when the average # of hooks per game is 3,8 lol.
So you should "git gud" as you say and go play killer at high MMR :). You clearly have no idea of what it is.
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Exactly, with my high MMR killers (Plague, Blight, Doctor, Pinhead, PH), my trials last 7 to 8 minutes max. The gen rush is huge, i'm even wondering if they cheat sometimes as it is lightning fast even though one surv is on hook etc...
It's like you check a gen, it is at 0% progression, you go away see 2 other gens, the first one you checked popping...
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"What MMR are you playing?"
How is ANYONE (including you) able to tell what MMR they have when its hidden (and probably non-existant anyways)
If I play duo or full SWF we ascape like 90% of our matches. Yet when I solo queue I still get matches with people who don't even know what a gen or a pallet is and how to use those.
MMR is a lie, prove me wrong.
Fact is when I play killer I always go for 12 hooks. No tunneling, camping (proxy) only when I know someone is near the hook right after I hooked someone (saw them or see their scratchmarks)
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Holding M1 is Boring, Holding W or Z in my case is boring. SoloQ is Boring.
as Killer i try to have Fun i do my best sometimes i get 1 kill or 4 , i try to not tunnel or camp but sometimes its needed when i understand it s a swf i do what i can but fun is primary Goal before Kills and i try to make survivors's game the most enjoyable as i can but i admit sometimes its very hard XD
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It's not only problem of the amount of antiloop killers released lately, also the size of a lot of maps is simply too much big for a low mobility killer (the majority of the roster), a lot of maps are simply too big which means more space for W and wider space between generatos difficulting the patrolling and downing a survivor at same time.
I've said this several times in this forums, but in my opinion the maps should be reworked to have the size of Coal Tower or a bit bigger (no more than 140 square tiles) and of course the maps which already have dead zones in the edges with some stuff for balancing in favour of the survivors too.
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No point in even trying to loop some killers nemesis, legion ,slinger, trickster. Doesn’t matter if you mind game them when you have to drop the pallet they’ll still get a hit on you
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There is also a problem in regards to maps - some have ridiculously strong loops/layouts that neccesitate playing a killer with enormous mobility or the ability to bypass these loops, especially at higher MMR where survivors will know how to 'play' these loops and turn them into incredibly safe pseudo-infinites.
The notorious 'House of Pain' loops, the wonderfully named 'POGlog' on swamp maps etc.
What's going to have to happen is a rework of these maps. Right now were in an arms-race between killer mobility and anti-loop, and survivors chaining together strong vaults and pallets. Something is going to have to give.
This.
The meta has shifted from trying to mindgame pallets/vaults to running larger, stronger loops where it's very difficult to catch up.
I'm not sure if there's an easy solution to this.
I recently saw a video where a single survivor looped an excellent killer player for around 5 minutes on the Haddonfield HOP. He was playing Nemesis.
Legion is vulnerable to predrops. Trickster and Slinger both fall apart when survivors know how to LOS.
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No room for STBFL.
Ruin, Undying, Tinkerer, Corrupt are basekit perks for most killers. I don't play killer once without bbq for points.
Currently playing Freddy with fake pallets, BBQ, Spirit fury, Enduring, STBFL with massive success because no one expects chase perks in this day and age.
Add ons: Red paint brush to confuse survivors at the get go and obviously Garden rake.
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I think killer movement speed needs to be increased. It will help the hold forward problem and cut down on BS god loops.
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I find this build a little 'streaky' personally. CI can be waited out, Ruin/Undying can pop seconds into a match.
I've got a weird little build that I run on most non-stealth killers:
Retribution+Plaything+BBQ/Lethal Pursuer/Discordance+Pop/Surge (will be replaced by Pain Resonance in the next patch).
For more stealthy types, I go:
Monitor+Retribution+Devour Hope+BBQ/Discordance/Lethal Pursuer
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This is an extremely disingenuousargument. Other than CoH existing, holding w has never been buffed in years of DBD. In fact it arguably has been nerfed with the removal of infinites/pseudo infinite loops. The argument that 'hehe survivors had an IWIN button for years but by their own grace never used it due to killer design but now that PH and deathslinger exist survivors are DONE holding back' is an extremely flimsy argument.
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I can't say I really blame survivors in this, bhvr sure.
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To be fair loop was an unintended game mechanic the game was supposed to be more stealthy. there was literally infinites in the game were the killer couldn't hit the survivor no matter how l long the ran around the loop. Most loops don't have counterplay once the pallet is dropped is safe and the only thing the killer can do is break the pallet. Instead of fixing these issues (other then most infinites) they just started throwing out anti loop killer. It all comes down to busted game mechanics that the devs ignore and act like balancing for casuals is the reason.
To be clear they don't balance for casual they balance for bad players. Even casual player will get better.
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I think chase mechanics should be more precise instead. Like it should trigger when you're directly looking at a Survivor like let's say 3 seconds and it's frustrating you have to get some specific distance to even trigger it.
Triggering chase mechanic is more important than you think if you played enough Survivor and you play around this. You can basically Hold W even further because the killer is struggling to catch up. On maps like haddonfield where there's a lot of line of sight blockers I have dragged slow movement killers around the map twice before they got a chase.
The only problem with making chase mechanics more lenient is killers might be really strong with Bloodlust going around so maybe it needs some tweaking.
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It was actually that they realised they were playing a video game so went with the more fun and resource saving option of looping until it wasn't an option anymore but gj
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Well yes, survivors tend to do this. I would say that you should try to play an insta-down Killer to get the upper hand. I started playing Hillbilly a while ago and have a blast because every survivor that "just holds shift+w" is an easy meal for me. Same goes for Wraith, Spirit and Oni. Now it is the Killers turn to adept here and find a way to play around this.
I also have quit some fun with my usual Ghostface build (Whispers, Surge, BBQ and Safe the Best for Last) as safe the best is doing fine work. What kills me are Spine Chill, Shadowstep and open maps like Shelter Woods and Ormont. However with his buff indoor maps are a piece of cake and holding W is not as effective when you approach from the right angle.
Hillbilly just invalidates the holding W with his power as you can get easy downs with his chainsaw when somebody tries this. I had quit a few smart survivors who tried to run in the open just to get a chainsaw in the back. I would advice against a build heavy on slowdown perks as they hinder your performance overall. You get better results with BBQ + Infectious most of the time.
It gets even better with Oni. Sure you need to get a few hits in but as you are using your first chase to get your power this is no problem. A survivor running leaves blood and once you get your power holding W is no problem. While Billy can bump into things Oni just dashes at you and clobbers them down. His problem is of course Cycle of Healing and finding the first survivor which is why I would always advice for Leathal Pursuer or Discordance. Also on Oni you have no room for tons of slowdown as you need tons of snowballing: BBQ + Infectious are a must, with 1 info perk that only leaves 1 slowdown spot usually Pop.
The thing is that survivor spawns now hit you even more: 4 people spawning on 4 generators is a huge problem. You can count these games as a loss right away and I would advice to do so. A 2-2, 3-1 or 4-together spawn is manageable and fun but 4 people split is pain especially if they are communicating.
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Players are getting better at doing everything because of design choices
Skillchecks- Thanks to old Ruin being a thing some Survivors got really good at hitting Greats... which was changed
Looping with antiloop Killers Survivors had to "get good" at running loops... But now they see that holding W is more efficient
Gen speeds- Killers run new Ruin with Pop... Corrupt became a thing
Survivors running loops- Mindgame (goes both ways)
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I feel like I'm the only survivor that refuses to just hold "W" because it's so boring. Even if I know that I will die, I stay at loops because it's more fun to die looping, than just running.
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They actually didn't. Killers were NERFED even more and to add cherries on top, more second chance crutch perks were introduced for survivors. Eventually, all killers will be nerfed hard.
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Lmfao
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