One Reason Why There Are So Many Anti-Loop Killers
Amongst other things, possibly because going round and round in circles and constantly spinning in first person is kind of unpleasant to experience. It's disorienting (obviously); no fixed frame of reference.
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The real reason is that M1 killers have been power-crept so badly by survivor perks that they can no longer function at a viable level anymore.
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Hey, I said one reason. Not all of the reasons. 😁
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While I can't deny War's mention of power creep, I do have to acknowledge how disorienting killer can be.
Sometimes I don't even have the stomach to play Twins because survivors running around me when I'm Viktor is so nauseating. Loops less so for me, but I could see it.
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There are no "anti-loop" killers. There are killers with strong chase powers, that happen to be good against Survivors that attempt to loop. Anti-loop implies that running around the same tile over and over and over and over again was an intended game design that the developers built the game around.
They didn't.
That is why so many survivors get pissy when they can't loop a killer like say, Nemesis. They think they are entitled to a looping playstyle and therefore anything that threatens that is somehow bad design on BHVRs part.
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They still deny looping and are therefor “anti loop” just like DS is “anti tunnel”.
Whether or not looping is intended is irrelevant
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It is relevant, because the Survivor complaints act like BHVR is somehow screwing them over on purpose for a mechanic they themselves didn't create. BHVR has actually acknowledged tunnelling as a mechanic. I've seen developers actually refer to DS as an anti-tunnel perk. I've never, EVER seen one say that running around the same rock fourteen times is a factor in ongoing game design.
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Yea there's aren't any Anti-Looping Killers
But there are Killers that force Survivors to Loop differently
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It is. Why do you think they make loops the way they do. Or during the most recent QnA during the MMR section they directly mention looping has no Impact on MMR
They are well aware and design the game around it
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I think you're misunderstanding the MMR section. They're referring to time spent chasing. You could empirically quantify time spent in a chase, you can't quantify "Looping".
Also, @WesCravenFan is right.
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Time spent chasing is directly related to time spent looping. Killers like clown are designed specifically to stop people from running around pallets multiple times therefore are “anti loop” by design
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DS is not anti-tunnel It's I'm bad at this game and need an extra LIFE LOL or I like to hop in lockers and troll killers build!
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The devs have literally balanced it to be anti tunnel
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And they could stand to... Balance it to be be a better anti tunnel perk.
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This is actually completely false, because 1) Clown's power works in an open field as well, for a net gain, and 2) 'Chasing', or you know, being in a chase, doesn't always happen when a survivor loops tall structures. Depending on the strength of the tile you may not be in a chase for a very long time, even while you work to change their health state.
But this is getting a little off point now.
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But the Clown doesn't stop the loop from happening... he can be looped just like any other Killer in this game
Neither does Nemesis, Hag, Huntress and so on and so forth
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I think you are conflating looping with chase mechanics. Pallets and windows are part of game design. They are map resources for Survivors and some Killers have powers designed to work with those in some fashion, like Clown bottles. What I am saying is that the act of dropping out of a window to then run around a rock over and over and over and over again, losing slight distance with each circle while you milk every centimeter before throwing the pallet, is NOT something that is made a factor of game design. So when a player complains that is being taken away by the most newly made Killer, they fail to understand they were never entitled to that play style in the first place.
The emblem system rewards chase TIME, not the number of NASCAR laps you milked out of one pile of junk on Blood Lodge. This is precisely why people get so mad about the "Hold W meta" (which just a pretentious way of saying "running"). You can have your own opinion of what is boring or not, but many Survivor arguments are steeped in a faulty foundation that they themselves came up with. It's the same mentality that tries to say "Killer tactic X that kills me is not a valid strategy!". Well, yes, it is. And the game is designed around it. But many Survivor Mains view the game the way they think it SHOULD be rather than the way it IS, and that is where the disconnect lies.
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I’ll agree with that to an extent. But these killers from my view were clearly designed to counter looping just like nurse was made to counter infinites
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There are no "anti-loop"-Killers.
There are only Killers who force you to adapt to their power. Take Pyramide Head as an example. Yes he is strong, yes he has a good power. However he has a good tell, his power has limited reach and his controls while chanelling the power is like monster truck. You need to outplay him, outsmart him and not just camp the pallet or try to run the same way 3 times until the window gets blocked.
Same for any other "anti-loop"-Killer. They are not unloopable, they just require more effort than your usual play of running in a cycle and pressing E to outplay...
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Yea... to counter Looping not anti-Loop... IMO there is a difference
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Are they not the same thing? Ds is anti tunnelling but the killer can still tunnel you anyway. It just buys you extra time.
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When Looping... Do you like to vault or throw a pallet?
Do you use DS when it becomes available or do you wait till after the second hook?
Ds is supposed to be this Anti-Tunneling perk but it falls short (unless used at the endgame)
So in a way DS is Counter Tunneling
Buying extra time is countering not anti... in this game
Counter- Stops an action for so long
Anti- Stop an action out right
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Anti-loop killers are extremely displeasing, imho.
I don't mind having one or two, but current DBD has way too many of them.
I like loops. I am from a time when the absolute majority of the cast could be looped in the regular manner, and I would've liked if it stayed that way.
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Yes, because as surv you have so much fun holding shift+w I can’t imagine why survs want to loop killers
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Killer design is not, and CANNOT revolve around what Survivors find fun. Killers do not exist for your enjoyment. They are not hired clowns for your kid's birthday party, even if a lot of Survivors treat them as such.
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And we are not here so you could feel powerful in a video game
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Yes but as an asymmetrical game it should be fun for both sides especially when they are interacting. The only time killers and survivors interact is during a chase
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This is another example of a wrongly adjusted mentality. Dead By Daylight is a game of hide seek (developers own words, by their own recent video).
You are not SUPPOSED to be chased. Chasing is supposed to be the last resort. And is supposed to end in downs (hence the bloodlust mechanic intention).
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You actually are. By math.
4 versus 1. A Killer is by raw math required to be four times more powerful than you.
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Holding W to catch up at 0.6m/s, only to go round and round a shrubbery, very fun. /s
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Then why does the majority of the community want to be chased. Surely if the stealth was well designed then more people would enjoy it?
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Sometimes I use Shadowborn to avoid that disorientation. I think there are too many antiloop as someone who wants to chase, but m1 killers have a difficult time currently.
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THAT is a fair criticism. You are surely allowed to find fun wherever you want. My point is that it is a false argument when a lot of people say things like "BHVR keeps screwing over looping" when looping isn't part of their design.
BHVR made Hide & Go Seek, NOT a game of Tag. Some people prefer Tag, but when BHVR patch something or make a new Chapter and it doesn't further Tag, that is not a design error.
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Then there needs to be meaningful skill based interactions outside of looping. When you go against the Nurse, Pyramid Head, Nemesis and The Artist, the best strategy is to hold "w" and run to the furthest corner away from your teammates and pre-throw pallets. It's almost the same for The Doctor and Deathslinger, although you can somewhat loop them.
Survivors only have 1 thing they can do, that's loop. Unless another mechanic is added, then for survivor gameplay to be interactive, then killers have to conform to looping.
I would say add perks that temporarily prevent powers from passing through walls. Maybe a perk that prevents powers from passing through walls and pallets in 32 meters for 30 seconds, when you vault a window. Or a perk that has tokens and when you activate a token, powers can't pass through walls and pallets.
Then survivors have meaningful interactions with those type of killers.
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Your idea of meaningful interaction is "force killers to be M1 killers that have to loop". That's definitely not a non-looping form of interaction.
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Well, blame the devs for not fixing maps. While maps like Cowshed and Badham are still a thing, I'm not letting go of Nurse, Blight, Huntress, Slinger, Artist, etc.
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I think it's moreso that strong anti-loop is a popular mechanic that tends to have average performance in the casual level, being less of a pain for BHVR to "balance." Killers with even remotely good 1v4 tend to get the nerf hammer hard because they stomp the casual level coughFreddycough coughPinheadcough.
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As long as DS, BT and Dead Hard exist in their current form I will play nothing but Nurse and tunnel/camp/slug shamelessly. Because they're effective tactics. You want Killers to stop tunneling? Make other strategies viable. Until then, the first time someone DS's me or bodyblocks me with BT, I immediately start making the game unfun for the survivors in that match.
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So, as long as you can't effectively tunnel, camp and slug with the only tools the Developers gave survivors, then your going to camp, tunnel and slug. Doesn't that seem kind of redundant to you.
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As long as I can't win by playing nice, I'll play mean. I want to have fun and my fun comes from winning.
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None of this is meaningful interaction, it's just yet another way for Survivors to control when and how Killers can use their powers. No; get better.
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To be honest, from a developer stand point, this is a massive void where meaningful perks of this type could be added to the game. There are no survivor anti-loop perk counters in the game. Its a perfect place to add meaningful perks into the game for survivors, to counter something that doesn't have counters yet.
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A perk that lets survivors make killers be m1 killers who have to loop and can't use their powers anywhere near a loop is not the perfect place to add anything. It's just a giant middle finger to killers because it's one more random ass perk to be played around until you know it's not there that shuts down the only thing you can really do.
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Have you thought any of this through from anything but a Survivor point of view? Do you even play Killer? I don't believe so, because if you had done either of those things you would have never put forth this idea. You want perks to counter a counter, which happens to be the only thing that makes Killers unique and would in fact completely cripple some Killers like Nurse, Hag and Deathslinger?
This is the kind of crap that makes Killer mains think the Survivor playerbase is just entitled. Zero comprehension of how the other side actually works.
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so many people play killer to feel powerful in a a video game for a while. You’re not alone!
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A hide and seek design intention isn't reflected in the scoring mechanics, though. Hiding offers little reward; the scoring system pushes you toward getting into a chase, staying in a chase as long as you can and ideally, winning the chase by escaping. To get an iridescent Evader emblem, you need to accrue 880 points. Hiding, you can gain a maximum of 6 points a second, if you are hidden within 5m of the killer. The further away you are, the less you get.
But get into a chase longer than 15 seconds, and you can easily score 15-30 points per second. Make it last 30 seconds and you can score 36-72 per second. It goes up again at 45 seconds and 60 seconds. If you don't win the chase, you lose half of those points. So the scoring design here says survivors should run the killer for as long as possible, until the killer gives up and moves on to someone else. I know that's often not how it works out, because of Bloodlust and other assorted mechanics, but that's what the scoring system tells a survivor they should be doing.
It's a similar story with BP. There's no BP reward for hiding; the category is even called Boldness. Beyond the killer specific interactions that earn you Boldness BP (like cleansing demo's portals, disarming a trapper's trap, etc), it's basically down to chases and totems. Since there are only 5 totems in a match, if you want a decent amount of BP you have to get into chases, extend each chase as long as you can, and ideally stun the killer with some pallet drops.
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This perk already exists. It's called Cringe Harder.
Oops, Dead Hard*
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I play both sides. However, I do think that there is definitely a untapped market for survivor perks that counter anti-looping powers. There's only so many "healing" perks the developers can make before survivors stop buying new survivors, they need to start making original "useful" perk ideas. Here is a totally need area to explore with survivor perk development. Don't you agree?
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And here you prove exactly the problem with DbD today, survivors dont want to adapt or learn new techs, they want every single killer to be loopable all day, run around like headless chickens around a structure with little chance of the killer to do something about it.
Anti loop killers nowdays are a must, survivors need to be literally kicked out of their confort zone and try new things, much like killers who constantly have to adapt to new perks and metas. If anything whe need more killers that hard shut down diferent aspects of the game to make each trial more interesting aside from "hi hi ha ha i loop killer all day".
Whe need more anti loopers, more anti gen rushers, more anti stealth ones and so on, killers that can put heavy preassure on every diferent tactic, THAT would make the game way more interesting as every trial would have a diferent flavor and way of be played.
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Then you'll always play in whatever manner gives you the win. 'Nice' and 'mean' are redundant to you, as someone pointed out already. You want a game that caters to you winning. That's the motive behind your demands. Not any notion of fairness.
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We already have enough of them.
It is alright to have a few killers with the "anti-loop no mobility" kit, but this should've stopped after Pyramid Head's release.
Now it seems to be the only thing that we are getting, and this is definitely not good. No wonder why people call many recent killers "boring", myself included.
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