The Grinds not that bad
Considering everyone seems to be running the meta despite it.
I have always thought that there was value in the aspect of grinding itself. Just seems like it's a great contributer to build variety as early on it forces players to add something to their build that would otherwise be immediately replaced.
For all the threads I've seen on the subject, I think it's odd that at any level of mmr it's the same repeating meta with maybe a 1/8 variable. But I get why it's always the same, so many imbalances that certain builds help the gap for killers and survivors like their safety nets.
Personally I would kind of like it if perk selection capped at lvl 50 and earning all perks wasn't possible until the characters are p3. We would all get more build variety while players burned up offerings and addons before a prestige.
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I can hear Luke's voice in my head right now.
"This is not going to go the way you think!"
Your idea would not create build diversity. It just gates perk collecting behind anyone that started playing before 2018.
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As someone who only started playing recently, yes it is.
Forget having all meta perks levelled on everyone, how about just having them at all? Or being able to do anything in the current game environment with most killers without the additional benefit of perks?
Pretty sure this would also by far harm killers more than survivors, since "screw you, P3 everyone you might want to play to get free perk selection". Can't fall back to one character and get the same play experience.
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The grind actively disincentivizes me from wanting to try anything remotely creative because I absolutely do not wish to clog the bloodwebs with stuff that I might only try on occasion. I've already screwed up my bloodwebs by a considerable amount simply by trying to unlock the taxi build on the Pig. In fact, I realized recently that part of the reason I only play the Pig is because I can't bear the idea of trying to grind a passable build on another Killer from scratch. For me personally, the grind is horrid enough that I feel it actively stifles variety.
If I had to grind to P3 to get all the perks, I'd have stopped playing the game altogether.
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I do think meta perks need to be restricted (if not nerfed) to increase build variety. I would take different a route for this instead though.
Currently it costs about 1 mil BP to get to lvl 37, then another 1 mil to get to 50 or so.
Then it's ~60k per bloodweb at lvl 50+, and you get two perks per web with 303 possible perks for survivors and 270 for killers in the game at the moment. It probably literally costs around 9.3 million BP to get all perks on a single survivor without prestiging once, and 6.3 million BP per killer.
If you're making ~20k BP as a survivor on average per game, that would take you 465 games. If you play a game for ~10 minutes on average, that would 4650 minutes or 77.5 hours of game time to get all perks on - one - survivor.
If you made prestiging mandatory to get all of the perks, that would increase the BP required to get all perks on a single survivor up to ~13.3 million BP. Effectively you'd be increasing the grind in this game by 43%.
I don't know about anyone else, but the thought of that scares me hard.
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Instead, I'd rather meta teachable perks be linked to their respective survivor and unable to be transferred. Then drop the perk tier system to reduce the individual grind per survivor. Now the grind is lessened for specific builds and play-styles you want, but still substantial if you want to max out every character to build around their survivor-specific perk.
This would reduce the grind to 4.46 million BP per survivor while simultaneously increasing build diversity.
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If anyone's curious about the numbers I'm pulling up, here's what I did.
BP to reach to 50 is estimated based on experience, as well as the 60k BP per bloodweb at 50+ and could vary slightly.
The 9.3 million BP cost to get all perks on a single survivor however, was determined with the following steps:
- 101 unique survivor perks in the game currently with three tiers each, meaning 303 perks you can get in the bloodweb.
- You get 1 perk per lvl from lvl 1-40, then 2 perks from lvls 40-50 and onward
- You therefore get 60 (40 + 2 * 10) perks by lvl 50
- There's 243 perks left to get by lvl 50 (303 - 60)
- You get two perks per bloodweb, so you need to finish 122 bloodwebs (243 / 2)
- Each blood web costs ~60k BP, meaning you need 7,320,000 BP to get all remaining perks after reaching lvl 50 (122 * 60,000)
- You spent ~2 million BP getting to lvl 50, so the total BP needed to get all perks is 9,320,000 or 9.3 mil (2 + 7.3)
- Add 2 mil per prestige (the cost to get to lvl 50 each time) to get to 13.3 mil for all perks under your idea
A similar process was used to determine an estimate number of BP needed per killer and to get all perks if tier systems were eliminated.
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"Instead, I'd rather meta teachable perks be linked to their respective survivor and unable to be transferred."
This idea could have worked in theory if it were implemented a long time ago, but by this point, it's WAAAAAY too late to do something like this without pissing off so many people who wasted a large amount of time grinding on a character who can no longer use the build you had in mind.
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The grind is bad. For someone who has been playing it for 4-5 years I hardly feel it because I got the perks as they trickled in. To someone brand new it's borderline EA's idea of progression with Battlefront 2. If I play killer and run BBQ all the time, while doing challenges and dailies. I can get a killer to 50 in like an afternoon of game play. If I'm after all the perks I want on said killer, it takes forever. There are so many garbage perks that exist just to force you to keep playing. Not to mention you need to get the same crappy perk 3 times just to stop it from popping up in the bloodweb again.
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Yeah, I tried suggesting it way back in 2016 and even a few years inbetween then and now.
The argument back then was primarily "everyone would just use Claudette for her stealth and Self Care" or "Everyone would just use Meg for Sprint Burst" and so on, before they were nerfed.
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That said, even though we're definitely at a point where if this was introduced there would be backlash because no one can pile on all their favorite meta perks anymore, I still want to see an innovative solution like this. I think the backlash could also be mitigated somewhat though by fact that not all survivors have amazing meta-level perks and require buffs.
Like, what perk from Ace or Dwight can compete with Laurie's DS or David's DH? None of them really.
So the only solution to these key meta perks being restricted would be buffing Ace and Dwights linked perk (whatever it is) to be pretty dang powerful to make up for the fact they won't have access to DS or DH. Maybe a Bond with infinite range that can pierce blindness? Ace in the Hole that can get rare and stupidly good add-ons, like a key that reveals the hatch once x gens are done regardless of how many survivors are left?
Maybe these examples are too strong, but the idea is that these survivor-specific restrictions could enable the implementation of some really nifty and strong perks. And that is something I think even people irritated with this change might come around to.
Not to mention all of a sudden this opens doors to make otherwise lacking perks have value. Plunderer's Instinct on Ace for example might start looking real tempting.
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Buffing is not an acceptable mitigation IMO. It's not just about making sure your character has meta perks. It's about making sure that your character has the build you actually want. This solution would still very much result in A LOT of time spent personalizing the character's build being flushed down the toilet.
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I like you put time into account.
The average bp gain is probably more around 10-15k. It is rare that I see games where everyone does 20k, yeah i'm not good, but a good average view, haha. 10 Minutes is fine as an estimated average, but only if we count games where you also get caught early. And you can spend WAY more on just unlocking all perks(even if you don't have all characters). And we only talk about one side. If you want to have 2-3 killers ready up (even if not all perks) it's probably even more (i sometimes play killer and only could be arsed to unlock perks and then every perk on my main)
You can spend 1mio points sometimes just to get one perk to level 3.
From what i could figure out (it's only a rough estimation) i spend 25mio. blood points.
And here's the extra thing: Imagine you want to have an item-build, and you need to spend even more blood points just to unlock certain stuff xD.
The Bloodweb is really in need of an overhaul.
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Or, to put it another way, the desire to give long-time players something to grind for with every release is really penalising new players.
And outright increasing the grind in a misguided attempt to increase build diversity is just going to exacerbate it. Why would I want to try and grind to a playable state in that case? I'd never be able to just... try things.
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Maybe, but how many personalized builds would actually be affected by this?
Take a look at my list of proposed linked-perks for each survivor:
- Dwight - Bond
- Meg - Adrenaline
- Claudette - Self Care
- Jake - Saboteur
- Nea - Streetwise
- Laurie - Decisive Strike
- Ace - Ace in the Hole
- Bill - Unbreakable
- Min - Alert
- David - Dead Hard
- Quentin - Vigil
- David - Stakeout
- Kate - Boil Over
- Adam - Autodidact
- Jeff - Distortion
- Jane - Solidarity
- Ash - Mettle of Man
- Nancy - None (license expired, perks are general pool)
- Steve - None (see above)
- Yui - Breakout
- Zarina - Off the Record
- Cheryl - Repressed Alliance
- Felix - Built to Last
- Elodie - Power Struggle
- Yun-Jin - Self Preservation
- Jill - Blast Mine
- Leon - Rookie Spirit
- Mikaela - Boon: Circle of Healing
- Jonah - Boon: Exponential
Now a lot of these perks are weaker than some others currently for sure, but that's not the point. I just wanted to briefly remind anyone reading this that we'd theoretically buff them all to be relatively equal in worth and appeal before going further (which is a great excuse to make a pass on some of the weaker perks anyway).
The main point I wanted to make is:
How many of these perks actually have synergy with each other to the point that more than one is likely to be put into a single build at a time? Aside from the meta perks (Decisive Strike and Dead Hard), which are used together not for personalization or synergy, but because they're just independently strong. In that way, I don't think this change would affect many people.
That said, I don't want to entirely ignore those who run unique builds such as Self Preservation + Breakout + Rookie Spirit + Mettle of Man because they like to, regardless of how rare they are.
In these cases perhaps weaker versions of the linked perk could be transferable, but at a significant penalty. For example you could still use Dead Hard on Laurie under this system to maintain the DS + DH + BT combo, but DH is weaker than if David used it. If Dead Hard were linked to David as it is now, Laurie using it would incur a double cooldown penalty (120s, reset entirely on hook still) to discourage multiple strong perks from being used together.
Diversity is encouraged, builds are preserved to a degree, and the grind is still reduced by half individually and yet still made optional through the encouragement of leveling multiple characters for their unique empowered core perks.
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Yeah, a lot of my estimates were based on personal experience and the real averages could differ. I could totally see games being shorter for some, and BP gains being 10-15k on average for survivors as well. In that case, I wouldn't be surprised if the grind was slightly more than I stated, but I wanted to be a bit conservative. It actually is scary to think about in that light.
Overall though, I agree. Bloodweb does need an overhaul, it's honestly ridiculous at this point.
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Probably a lot? It's less about the number of builds affected and more about the number of people affected.
I am of the belief that it is far too late too do anything to differentiate Survivors from each other mechanically by even a little. It is something that should have been built into the foundation of the game from the start (or close to it).
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That's fair.
I won't stop dreaming though!
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idk how accurate the website is but https://dbd-stats.net/ says i spend around 30 mio points. and i only have 3 dlc killer (not even everything unlocked) and 3 survivor (stranger things and the mikaela).
And i "only" played around 230h
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Ehh, I'm not too far off then.
230 hours = 13,800 minutes = 1,380 games (if ~10 min per game average) = 21,739 points per game (30,000,000 / 1,380)
That does include things like offerings though, which I wasn't intending to include but it conveniently works out I guess!
Handy stats, thanks.
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The grind is abolutely massive.
I have thousands of hours.
I have 2 survivors with every perk maxed out. I have 3 other survivors at P3-50, none of which have particularly good perks. Every other survivor is around P0-40. Even if survivors are "just skins," it's still nice to not be limited to just one because of how the grind works. On top of that, daily challenges and tome challenges mean I often need to use the other survivors regardless, and they are in a much less enjoyable state, especially when there are challenges like "escape with an ultra rare item with Elodie" which force you to either grind a lot of points for ultra rares, perks like Plunderer's Instinct, or just play a lot of games with her and hope you get something pink from a chest AND escape.
On the killer side, every killer is P3-50. Of those, only 3 have maxed out perks. One of them took over 200 perks at P3-50 before I even unlocked BBQ and Chilli, more to max it. Even if you want to have the weak, weak, argument that "iT dOeSn'T mAtTeR bEcAuSe PeOpLe UsE mEtA," if someone does collect teachables the way 90%+ of the community does, the nature of the game means that their meta build is no more likely on their bloodweb than any other perks.
Most of my killers are in a mediocre spot, which is alright since I'm pretty happy to play off meta with most of them, but I'm an outlier there, and I sympathise with people who would want all their killers to have a very specific build. It is of course a choice to prestige, however I see it as wasted points if I spend millions gaining perks on a character if they are not fully prestiged. It means there's always going to be something more I could have for that character, and that's not to discount the very likely option that BHVR reworks prestige at some point in the future. I would hate for that to happen and I have a character at P0-250ish that all of a sudden is missing out on a benefit, and I have to give up 90 perks to get it.
However, all of this is after THOUSANDS OF HOURS. Most of the grind for me has been alleviated by the fact that I started at the Saw chapter when there was only 11-12 characters on each side, and getting them all to 40 was a relatively quick process. Anyone who starts these days has roughly 2120 levels to gain JUST to unlock teachables, and from there decide what they want to do. Even if they only want one perk from a character they have to do almost the whole grind.
The grind only gets worse patch after patch. New perks are added, which for existing players is a small speedbump, but for every new player is another several million bloodpoints in catching up.
So no, forcing people to prestige before they can get a build they want going (meta or otherwise) is not a valid suggestion, it would just add more problems to a problematic system. It's taken me thousands of hours to reach a point where you say I should be "allowed" to make a build.
And no, forcing diversity by locking perks is a terrible idea. It would lose many players because it is actively taking away options we already have, and it would simply result in a preset survivor meta where everyone would run the survivors based on their perks not who they like, and would VASTLY punish players like myself who invest in a character we like (ie Quentin for me) and would then be forced to either spend millions of points to get a new survivor to the same point we were already up to, or use a build which is objectively worse than other peoples'.
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Yeah i tried to take as many codes with me as i could xD And always offerings. I grinded a lot on the killer, so that's where most points come from in the end.
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I honestly do not believe the grind is too bad, if you are a killer main running BBQ consistently offering cakes and the like. The real problem is the lack of BP events, even during freaking Halloween. Doubt we get one for Christmas either.
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I dunno, what do you consider an appropriate amount of time spent BP grinding to have access to meta perks and get them on one killer? Bearing in mind that getting BBQ also means having to spend extra.
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If you ask me, all perks should be available for all killers/survivors from the start. I think we should be grinding for something different. But I don't make the rules.
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You don't need/want all Survivor PERKS what you should strive for newbie is "BUILDS". That should be your goal. 4 PERK combo's.
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You know, I just realized, based off my first post here, that the grind really is nutty.
9.3 million BP to get all perks on a single survivor, and 6.3 million per killer (excluding prestige).
There's 30 survivors and 26 killers in this game, meaning you need 279 million to get all perks on all survivors and 164 million to get all perks on all killers. That's a total of 443 million to get all perks on everyone, excluding prestige.
If you assume you get 20k BP per match on average overall, it takes 13,950 games to do that for survivor and 8,200 BP to do it for killer, or 22,150 games total for both. At ~10 min per game that's 220,150 minutes or 3,691 hours to max out (excluding prestige).
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It gets worse too if you consider every new chapter.
Every time a new survivor is added, they come with 3 new perks with 3 tiers each (total 9 new perks in the web).
Each web gives 2 perks at 50+ and costs ~60k BP, meaning you'll need 270,000 more BP per survivor to get those remaining new perks. Since there would be 31 survivors in that scenario (30 + the new one), that new survivor is basically adding 9.3 million BP worth of grind for themselves, plus 8.37 million BP (31 * 270,000) to grind the new perks on every survivor including the new one, for a total of 17.67 million BP extra grind for a new survivor.
For killer, you're adding the same 270,000 cost from perks and spreading it across 27 killers (26 + the new one) for an extra grind of 7.29 million BP from the new perks alone. Add the new killer's cost to get all perks (6.3 million) and the total becomes 13.59 million BP extra grind if they add another killer.
A chapter with both a new killer and one new survivor would therefore be a total extra grind of 31.26 million BP.
To put that into perspective, if you make ~20k BP on average per match again, that's 884 games for each new survivor and 680 games for each new killer needed to get the required BP to get all perks again. That's basically 150 hours worth of grinding each if games last ~10 minutes each on average, for a total of 300 hours worth of grinding per DLC with both a killer and survivor.
And these grind numbers will keep increasing with more content, since new perks will have to be obtained on more and more characters.
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TLDR:
Excluding prestige, offerings, x2 BP events (that no longer exist), tomes, and lobby/loading wait times, you need ~3,700 hours worth of dedicated gameplay if you average 20k BP per game to get all perks on all characters.
Each chapter with both a survivor and killer also adds ~300 hours worth of grinding.
This is kinda excessively gross, and I'm really hoping my math and/or assumptions are SIGNIFICANTLY wrong somewhere.
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We all float down here, you'll float too!
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Yes, I think the problem is likely assuming 20k average.
If you're playing killer only with BBQ, you're going to exceed that, once you get BBQ. If you only play on characters with BBQ. And always run BBQ.
Survivors don't seem to have that luxury.
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Oh for sure, killers will likely double or even triple that with BBQ.
Even then though, they're still probably going to have to spend 1.3-2k hours dedicated solely to killer to cap out (excluding prestige), and 100-150 hours of grinding per patch with both a survivor and killer.
Those poor survivors though in this case, especially the ones that average 13-15k per game.
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Whatever role you play though, it is legitimately disturbing how big the grind has been allowed to grow to in the last few years.
Even more disturbing is the lack of BP events when it's this bad. How stingy can BHVR be?
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I've always felt like perks should not be teachable to other characters. That's the only way you will find diversity in this game...
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I think Grind is mainly issue considering new players.
To get good teachable perks unlocked, it takes a lot of time.
"Play Killer." "Earn BBQ&C." "Run BBQ&C/WGLF." "Burn Escape Cake/Suvivor Pudding."
These advice are meaningless and helpless for new players compared to those who can earn much more easily.
I know Prestige is grind, unlocking new teachable perks is grind, getting new perks on characters who don't have it is also grind.
But the pressure you get when you start this game from the beginning is the most unbearable grind.
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Its about how hard it is to get meta perks to even show up - and thats after you unlock them all which takes forever. I have spent 8million on artist so far and dont have a finished build on her. I havent even been able to spend points on the new survivor at all.
Theyll need to address it at some point, since as a new player id rather pay $$$ than deal with the grind of being a fresh account. With time itll only get worse.
Simpliest fix is remove tiers.
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Just when I thought I heard everything from dbd's community, I read a suggestion to increase the grind. Amazing.
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Man, I introduced a friend to the game like half a year ago. He's about 400 hours in, he got Kate P3 lvl 50 with her own perks, basic perks, Meg, Dwight, Claudette, Feng, Bill, David King, Elodie, Nancy, Steve and Cheryl perks. (They're all lvl 40)
And they wanted to start playing killer and now have every killer lvl 40, except Legion, which is lvl 50.
400 hours and just finished getting perks enough on all killers and have ONE single survivor with a lot of perks. I truly feel bad for new players, having to endure this grind and time investment they gotta put into the game, just to stand a chance with perks.
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I shouldn't still be grinding at 5k hours.
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Nah, it's not. Do challenges and dailies and play Killer to grind out BP super fast. I got Artist to P3 from almost 0 bp and 0 shards in less than a day.
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I have 5k hours and i like grinding. It keeps me motivated to play this game but this is way too much with all these perks, the bloodweb bp prices and the useless items/offerings.
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They should keep giving out free BP
That way I can continue to gain BP without playing the game lmao good times
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I think my brain might explode.
The grind is one of the absolutely worst things about this game. A bit of grind is one thing. Pouring almost 4m BP into a killer without unlocking the one perk I wanted is tooth-grindingly annoying.
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I agree some useless offerings like fog bottles need to go, or we need a way to refund stuff we don't want for some amount so it isn't a total loss; maybe half value.
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Sure the grind isn't that bad if you have absolutely nothing to do all day. Most days atm I get maybe two hours a day to play some DbD and yeah the grind is the most annoying thing in the world. I'd also love to be able to switch to PC but that's just not going to happen because of how bad the grind is.
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It absolutely is that bad and challenges and dailies don't ######### help. They actually make it worse, because on top of the obnoxious grinding requirements to be able to choose who I want to play and how I want to play them, they tell me "go play a character you don't enjoy or haven't grinded perks on and achieve a particular thing, then you can have your smattering of in game currency". Bonus points for all the rift challenges about playing Trickster that assume you have, in fact, unlocked the bloody thing.
Your ability to no-life grind up one character does not mean that the rest of us have the time or inclination to put up with this misery in an endless game of catchup, even without thinking about touching the utter waste of time that prestige is.
After I've got maybe 250k BP in a day and it all goes into a black hole of levelling some other character to the point I don't even get a teachable but not enough to enjoy playing them or get some build choice, I'm burnt out. I'm the one who's spent money on these characters, so why exactly do I have to turn the game into a job before I can just use them properly?
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