Dead Hard promotes looping
Dead Hard is the only exhaustion perk that actually encourages looping.
Sprint Burst, Lithe, Smash Hit, Balanced Landing and Overcome all basically just promote gaining distance holding W. They’re either for playing in unsafe positions or leaving loops.
Head On basically just promotes coordinating meme plays with SWFs.
Dead Hard is the only exhaustion that promotes traditional vault and pallet play at loops before and after the perk is used.
Without Dead Hard, I fear the hold W meta would be the only strategy for good Survivors because the other exhaustion perks encourage it.
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... traditional?
Has Sprint Burst not been in the game even longer?
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The original version of Sprint Burst was the most broken perk the game has ever seen.
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I sorta agree. But the other exhaustion perks can be used for both looping and holding w.
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Yeah which is why it is used more often than the others. Because it is literally a chase-looping perk.
The other perks are different in their own way. Yet people keep claiming DH is used more because it's better. 🙄 Right, better for LOOPING. Not for gaining distance.
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Sure. And my tapeworm helps me lose weight. That doesn't mean that it's a positive thing.
The current incarnation of Dead Hard, when used appropriately is like an extra health state on a 40 second cooldown that also feeds the killer wrong information and sometimes futzes with their power.
If the latter can't be fixed, then DH is going to have to be balanced around this (ergo: nerfed).
Mettle of Man.
OoO was pretty bogus in SWFs too.
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I just find it funny to see the word "traditional" used in the context of a video game perk, especially when contrasted with perks that were in the game even longer (but have been nerfed earlier).
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Agree with this post. DH is fine.
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If anything Dead Hard is unhealthy on teaching looping to survivors. I used to run Dead Hard when I had like 300 hours in the game and I thought I was good at looping. When I finally took it off was when I started improving.
You don't need to learn things like chaining tiles or lunging distances when you have a button that teleports you to the nearest pallet or window. Also things like learning how to dodge hatchets and Blight rushes. It's incredibly funny when those "loopers" start camping pallets after they spend their Dab Harder.
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So holding w should be encouraged?
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On low/intermediate MMR, it's okay.
Against people who know how to use it effectively to cause 'fake hits' and immediately drop chase/stop you from breaking a pallet on Nemmy, it's decidedly not fine.
It was the most meta of meta perks before the 'fix' (see: buff). Now it can be overwhelming.
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I disagree. I have no problems with it as killer.
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You must fall into the low/intermediate MMR category then mentioned in the quoted post
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I mean, I'm definitely in the low/intermediate category (I hope), and it's still super annoying when it gets used for fake hits. It's just not constantly used for that.
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Even Dead hard promotes holding W...
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I’m not in low MMR and I agree with them.
Also, funny how MMR gets brought up the moment DH is talked about. Yet no one talks about it when the killer has high MMR but the tile set ups are still trash for survivors.
But since that isn’t the topic of discussion if you are falling for window fakes you are a bad killer and you probably shouldn’t be facing that survivor’s MMR.
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"You have no problems with DH, so you must be low MMR"- Nope. DH just isn't an issue.
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No one even mentioned window fakes, go and re-read.
Nearly every streamer I've ever watched are in agreement that DH is too powerful in the right hands, particularly used for distance.
It's not even up for debate if its strong or not, literally every Survivor and their dogs are running it.
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I never said it wasn't strong. Streamers can be wrong.
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Seriously, there's having 'an unpopular opinion' and there's thinking a pretty obnoxious, occasionally game-breaking bug is perfectly okay.
Either they need to fix fake hits (likely impossible) or DH will have to be rebalanced accordingly. It's too strong for it's cooldown at present and artificially reduces survivor builds as a consequence. Playing without DH is just playing the game 'wrong' at present, and that's a sign that balance is squiffy.
EDIT: That was probably a little mean, but I struggle with people who defend obvious bugs and broken stuff.
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Nothing else I can really say. It's perfectly fine in my opinion.
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No but you bothered to reply to a post they responded to where they did.
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So can random dudes on forums, so I guess we'll leave it at that.
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No one mentioned window fakes. Go back and read, slower.
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Yeah DH by itself you can play around as a killer. Even 4 survivors with dead hard is not too strong. It's the combination of the strongest perks in the game, which 4 survivors can stack without any limits. That's the problem in high MMR.
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Lol nice one.
@StarLost replied to his post with what I just mentioned. You replied to @IronKnight55’s response to it.
I tried to explain it in the most simple way to get you caught up. Since it was bad of me to assume you actually follow conversations instead of just jumping at the next thing that is mentioned. Even when it was not originally directed at you.
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No, it's DH that ties the whole mess together. It's a zero risk, massive reward 'I-Win' button frequently that amounts to a near permanent third health state. And that's before you factor in the fake hits.
*Rubs temples*.
Okay, explain this to me.
How is the 'fake hit' bug okay?
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DH is an overpowered crutch. It's a third health state every single chase and it absolutely promotes bad play, I say this as someone who quite literally never takes the perk off when playing survivor, every "build" I use involves having DH because it's a crutch and I know it. People can argue that it should stay the same or be nerfed until kingdom come but lets stop pretending the perk is any sort of balanced because it's not.
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Bro why are you still saying I'm the one who needs to get "caught up"
You said I am a bad killer because I don't know how to play around window fakes, but you were the first person in the thread to even mention window fakes, in that same post.
I guess you misread the guy mentioning "fake hits" and your mind went to window fakes or something.
So yeah thanks for trying to catch up, maybe catch yourself up first.
(BTW if reading is too slow, you can do CTRL+F and type in "window fake", and you will see the first person to mention window fakes was you)
Good luck out there!
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Just because you and a handful of people deemed it unbalanced doesn’t mean it is.
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I never said bugs were fine (at least not that I remember). I was only saying I believe DH is fine, that's it. All bugs need to be addressed.
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Then...
Explain why it isn't.
Asserting "I disagree" and "Just because you think something doesn't mean it's right" is not a reason for you to be right.
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bro I was gonna respond to this same post you responded to, but I just can't even anymore
Can't tell if people are just trolls at this point, or if this is genuine logic people have
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Because it is easy to bait out. Many times when a survivor is about to use it make it very obvious because they are baiting your swing.
If you want to focus on the portion where survivors get a “free get out of jail card” as many of you call it. There is a plethora of perks and playstyles on the killer side which have a significant lack of balance that I don’t see changing anytime soon… and they won’t. Because perks are just that PERKS. An advantage in a given specific scenario which you wouldn’t have had if you didn’t bother to slot it.
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Yeah if this was a trolling competition you’d be first in line. Trust.
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Yeah but you still didn't respond to my last comment where I absolutely obliterated you on the last page? But yeah keep talking
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Yeah I'm trying not to lose my fluff with this gentleman.
Seriously, he pops up in a ton of threads going 'no I main that killer, x is totally fine/needs nerf'.
This isn't Pulsar or GBK or someone who will actually try and defend his perspective either.
Okay.
Let me see if I can rephrase this, because I'm not sure if you are understanding.
Shifting the validation of Dead Hard now means that, if you time DH perfectly, the killer will get the 'hit' visuals and audio cue and will lose vision of the survivor. However, no hit applies.
Because the killer not only gets the vision-obscuring 'hit' graphics but will immediately behave as if they hit, you will almost always be able to easily break the chase. You can watch some recent Otz/Tofu streams to see this being abused heavily.
It can also be used to interfere with some killer powers - for example, you drop a pallet. Nemesis uses his tentacle strike. Without Dead Hard, you'd either get smacked or the pallet would be broken. However, if you DH at the correct moment, the 'fake hit' prevents both.
This likely cannot be fixed, because it's just the old 'exhausted on ground' problem but with the issue shifted to the killer. Thus, Dead Hard has to be balanced around the 'bug'.
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Ok let's stop with the insults and rudeness and get back to having a civil debate
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I didn't hijack someone else's comment, you did.
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One does not simply have a civil debate about DH.
You can't bait out Dead Hard used to gain distance to extend a loop.
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Problem: with the fix to validation, it's now regularly possible for the survivor to use DH only when an attack would otherwise connect (hackers with auto-Dead Hard scripts show this off the most, though unlike most hacks it's humanly possible). Then we get the additional problems with fake hits etc. on top of that.
The more general consensus, here and from streamers, seems to be that it's not balanced for a perk to be something you play around (by sacrificing time in not attacking to try and bait it out) whether or not it's there, and then even if you do that it can still be held in reserve for a last-second dodge.
Which is the normal complaint about other survivor perks; not just that they're good second chances, but the part where their very existence and common use requires playing around when they're not there, essentially giving everyone not using them a ghost perk or two.
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I think that does need fixed. Not sure if they can though.
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Responding to a comment is hi-jacking? No it's called participating in a discussion, that's what forums are for right. Then you started going on about window fakes, totally off topic.
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There is no way to fix it, because it's just a latency conflict.
Previously, Dead Hard would sometimes seem to have been timed correctly, but would fail and you'd be 'exhausted on ground'. That wasn't ideal - but the perk was still the most common survivor perk by a mile. It was strong enough to be meta, even with this quirk.
You could even argue that it was balanced around this, somewhat.
Which is what I've been trying to explain to you. An unfixable bug can be considered as a 'feature' for balance purposes.
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I mean I have watched both sides tell a story when it comes to streamers. There are those who think it is fair and those who do not.
Bottom line is that most of the complaints I see on here are "You cannot bait it out in a specific loop". Ok? That IS how the perk is supposed to work. You aren't suppose to be able to counter every single scenario out there. What is funny is that the same one keeps being brought up when like I said previously, there is an array or perks and playstyles (something that doesn't require to be part of the load out) that is instance specific for them to work.
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Stop beating a dead horse. I am no longer discussing with you.
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yeah but you just called me a troll out of nowhere, after not even apologising for your earlier misunderstanding. Its cool though bro, water under the bridge.
It's nothing to do with a specific loop or tile.
If a Survivor is close enough to a window or a pallet, where they can use Dead Hard to reach the pallet before you are in hitting range, there is no way to "bait" that, because you can't get close enough to hit them.
Used this way, a skilled looper can DH to a pallet, drop it, and then if positioned well (near another pallet/loop etc), they can loop you for another 30 seconds or so.
You can't bait DH used for distance, because it's already used out of hitting range.
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This.
DH, due to it's quirks, was something you had to time right and had an element of risk to it, to slightly offset it's ability to give a defacto third health state on a ridiculously short cooldown. This created a fun mindgame scenario - killers would try to bait it out, survivors tried not to get baited and had to time it more carefully.
Now, there's no risk. You don't really need to time it all that carefully either. Just wait for the lunge to start and boom, third health state and potentially fake hit to let you completely vanish.
The biggest indicator that DH (and COH but that's another discussion) need a nerf is that they change the entire meta of the game simply by existing - whether they are present in the game or not. Hell, survivors without DH can be even scarier, because of the 'ghost perk' situation you mentioned.
Both of these perks need to be adjusted for the health of the game. Survivor queues are getting longer and longer, and once Overcome is in the mix...yeah. Get ready for mayhem.
Find me a credible streamer that thinks DH is fine, factoring in the 'fake hit' issue.
I'll wait.
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Well couldn't the solution be to just scrap the dead hard validation and make it so that your not immune to damage and just keep the distance use. This solution solves the fake hit issue and "fix mistakes" issue.
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This is what a lot of people have been suggesting, and would likely be the most common-sense approach.
It would still be a really, really strong perk but wouldn't be a combination third health state/flashbang.
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You could also add more of a downside to the exhaustion status effect which could nerf dead hard to an even more balanced state
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