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Killers Can Be Just As Powerful
I see so many people leaving killer and I can see why, the role is much more stressful than survivor, but where did people get this idea that it shouldn't be?
In any game that is 1v4 or etc., the role that is by themselves will obviously be more stressful because you are your whole team. I really don't know where this idea of killer needing to be super easy win mode came from, the game has always been rough for killers and right now, killer has much less to worry about than they used to.
I get complaining about survivors being strong but here is something I always think about. If the 4 survivors are using their 4 strongest perks, and you as killer are not also using your 4 strongest perks, why is it a shock when you lose? If you aren't putting yourself at the same level perk-wise, why do you beat yourself up when you lose? They have an advantage over you and losing is definitely more in your favor.
This isn't bad though, that is how games work. What I don't understand is why this is complained about so hard. I do believe killer needs some basekit buffs, but acting like killer's get steamrolled super hard every game just isn't true. If all you care about is winning as killer, 4k etc, then it is super possible. You can play scummy, you can throw on the best perks, you can throw on the best killer, and use map offerings all you want, just like they can do. All is fair and part of the game.
It isn't fun to me to do that lol and if it isn't fun for you and you want to use stuff you like, then do it. Play and have fun, don't care about winning or getting a 4k, a 2k is perfectly fine. If you aren't playing hard to win like they are, don't be upset when you lose, be happy when you can beat them despite the advantage. If you only want to win, then you most certainly can, I promise that.
Comments
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Because you still get matched against people trying their hardest and using their best perks. There is basically no level where people seem to stop using some meta survivor perks, it's just slightly less likely that it'll be a wave of identical ones (still happens, though).
Also, the idea that one role shouldn't be more stressful than the other is common sense? Yes, it's 1v4, so the 1 should have as big of an impact as the 4. At the beginning of a match, it should be equally stressful for everyone. Not "killer is immediately under a ton of pressure to achieve anything at all", and Survivors only get some pressure once someone's actually dead early.
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Except just like I said, if the killer wanted to add that same stress they most definitely can. I get it is annoying to get matched up against people using only the same 4 perks over and over and tryharding, that is about all I can go against on the killers I am great at and enjoy, but if I wanted to win and play tryhard like them it is certainly possible to do so, that is the point of the post.
Also how is it common sense that one role shouldn't be more stressful? A role that has to be their entire team would, in common sense, be more stressful than the role with 3 team members and then yourself.
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I want to be able to at least get 2ks with non meta killers. This game in its current state and my mmr feel impossible to have good games. Sure I can play nurse or blight and get 3/4ks all day, but I really don’t want to play them all the time. I’m done with the killers mainly because the imbalances between killers powers.
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Have they not said perks, add-ons, etc should not HAVE to be used/depended on? So running the top 3 killers with the top perks and add-ons to be consistent is not how it should work and honestly you shouldn't have to. I agree you shouldn't care only about 4k's but it's a game.....Most like to win games and most importantly have fun. I find lower tier killers more fun and I like the challenge. There is not one killer I don't use so the power differences are easily noticeable.
I mean I have had games with Clown (as example) and was putting survivors into the dirt left and right (having another hooked by the time first was unhooked) and still had all gens completed and 2 escape. Now sure if I tunneled, ran all meta, etc probably would have 4k'd but shouldn't have too. If you play great as survivors you 4E and t-bag out the gate. if you play great as killer you still might get dunked on is what I believe is the point most killers mean.
Overall I am with you I just believe you shouldn't have too. Also survivor is just fun to me right now killer is not.
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Play 20 trials as the Demogorgon, PH, Trapper and Clown with META perks at high MMR, and come back here telling us the game is fair and that the killers have a chance to win.
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The fun strong things are only fun for so long, people like to have fun and win but this game has limited tools to do so while still not being trounced 24/7 by 3-4 average of meta perks, the problem is the killer side strong stuff gets boring faster for most people than the survivor side so people just leave killer to the easier to play for longer side
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Whilst I can empathise with those who feel they can no longer play killer, as with you I still really enjoy killer and it's probably because I maintain blissful ignorance of some of the regular complaints (meta, swf, etc..).
This ignorance is actually one of the best things for killer, I've found. For a start, the meta builds: I'm very much of the impression that a perk is as good as you can make it. I've 4k'd swf with Monstrous Shrine and Unrelenting selected. I've been smashed with PGTW, NOED and such. It's how the game goes - swings and roundabouts. But refusing to use anything other than randomizers, as well as proving to myself the meta is often overhyped, has given me a freedom which vastly adds to the enjoyment.
I also treat the game as levels of difficulty. Sure, I don't necessarily get the choice as to whether to try medium or nightmare difficulty, but I treat it like it is and play through until the end.
The bits I don't like are the endgame insults, but that is really exceptionally rare! Granted, this morning I had 2 in a row from survivors I killed, but just blocked them and moved on. Also, their insults weren't reportable - no attack on ableness, race or such - just basic "trash" comment. But mostly, any comments are nice, and I only ever instigate communication post-game with positive comments.
But yeaj, killer is still enjoyable a lot (especially Billy), so long as you play it your way and understand you will not win everything.
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Woof.
Okay, let's dig in here.
- Don't strawman. Nobody is asking for easy wins. They are asking for aspects of the game that they feel are unbalanced to be fixed.
- About half of the killer roster has serious problems; be it boring, undercooked addons, a playstyle that is countered by boons or an inability to handle strong loops. About 2/3 of the killer roster is not considered viable at high MMRs. That's a massive problem.
- There are 3 maps in the game that are somewhat 'killer favored', and even that's debatable. More than half the maps in the game are survivor favored. There are still infinites against certain killers. This is not acceptable.
- 2ks are rare. This game is snowbally by it's nature. You either stomp or get stomped.
- In typical 1v4 APVP games, the solo role tends towards being the 'power' role. This isn't the case in DbD, which is jarring.
- Survivors are incredibly toxic on a pretty frequent basis - whether it be DCing or teabagging. A big part of killer frustrations isn't so much losing, it's losing and being gloated at. This gets under your skin.
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Ah yes another survivor main topic where the point is "killer just accept that you lose".
Survivors constantly ask for everything strong killers have to be nerfed and then wonder why killers don't want to play anymore.
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Nobody is asking for free wins, just a change in the meta that isnt stupidly broken like it is at the moment.
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It's not that I want a 4k, it's that I want to stand a chance and have fun while doing so. I could equip only meta perks and only play the most powerful killers, but that'd be repetitive and boring. I could camp and tunnel survivors out of the game early to make the rest of the game easier, but that's unsatisfying and boring. I could try to play non-meta and non-meta killers, but then I'm vulnerable to being stomped. I'm fine with losing if there's a lot of back and forth and the survivors happen to come out on top. Getting stomped however, is discouraging, frustrating and boring.
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I think what your missing here is that the theme of the game should have the fear and pressure on the survivors to survive rather than the killer to kill them.
So killer power should be equivalent to 4 survivors in power. Meaning 1v1 survivors should expect to be screwed but as a coordinated group they have a chance. That's largely true but not entirely.
While a lot of map layouts were fixed, survivors are still in a really strong place 1v1 with the killer.
You'll notice the META perks are all mainly perks that improve the 1v1 element of the game, DH, DS, Ironwill, Adrenalin, Sprint burst. Its possible to extend a 1v1 chase for so long that half the survivor objective can be complete before 1/6th of the killer objective is complete. That's a totally disproportionate ability to build pressure.
Also survivors virtually never lose time investment where if the killer is dropping chases constantly to apply pressure elsewhere then all the time spent chasing is lost investment. It takes killer intervention to stop survivor investment by regressing gens, but gen regression is often so small compared to the speed survivors can heal up, and tap gens, to reset killer pressure.
Its now even easier to heal up and reset pressure as survivor because most of the time you don't need a second survivor to help you heal. You can reset killer pressure solo further increasing survivor 1v1 power.
This is where boons become problematic because they create a fairly powerful group wide ability to quickly reset 1v1 killer pressure. Reducing even snowball spread damage tactics that a large number of killers rely on to be viable.
Yeah killers in many ways are stronger then they've ever been but it could also be argued that survivors are stronger 1v1 then they've ever been, so most of the killer strength is rendered mute 1v1 and potentially uselss against coordinated 1v4. It takes some mad killer skill and a lot of luck to apply high pressure against coordinated survivors who can compete evenly 1v1.
That just feels wrong within the context of a suvival horror game where the goal is to escape the big scary monster.
It also leads to killer players applying to most valuable and consistent pressure they can which is remove a survivor as quickly and early as possible. So everyone complains about tunneling when by very design you can't find a better way to apply permanent pressure than to remove one survivor ASAP, as often other efforts are too easily reset offering little to no value objective wise.
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4 survivor with their strongest perk and comm will beat every killer exept nurse this could be a close match. Remove nurse from the roster and the survivor are going to dominate and thats if 4 survivor are of equal skill to the killer meaning the game is unbalance. The only reason another killer exept of nurse can 4k its because they outskill the 4 survivor by a lot its 4v1 balance around the 1v1 ofc the game wont be balance.
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I am not a survivor main, I have been playing mostly killer for about 4 years, just saying that even with bad killers, you can play scummy and get wins using the best addons and perks, just like how survivors do. Not asking for anything to be nerfed, just saying killers can definitely play oppressive.
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Oh yeah totally agree, I really don't like playing meta, they are just boring perks to me and it feels much better to win against good teams using my own skills I've grown to play this game for so long.
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I hate to regurgitate info here but I feel like the point here is sorely missed. After finally getting into higher MMR games, where almost every group is some number of SWF teams.... with or without the strongest perks in the game you still have an exceptional chance to get 0ks -- consecutively, not just once or twice.
I am so burdened with my favorite killers that I'd much rather simply only play Huntress because at every level of play she is strong. That is the only chance I have. That or face multiple frustrating defeats before being placed in what can only be considered "my real MMR" due to the fact that SWF teams are too strong for this game.
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I fully agree, I'm not saying there aren't things that killer needs buffed, killers have needed better gen regression as base for 5+ years now, and some survivor things are just dumb imo, I firmly believe Prove Thyself is the worst designed perk in the game, dead hard second. My post is basically just feeling annoyed at this mindset that killers join a game and then lose instantly with 0 hooks, while I don't have that happen and I see many other great killer mains also still playing good matches.
Are survivors stronger than killer? Well yeah, survivors don't have variations and differences really like killers do. A trapper will of course be harder, a clown can get smashed harder than a oni, etc, but does that mean killers can't ever win? Not in my eyes, I have seen some of the lowest tier killers dominate high level survivors. It isn't impossible
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Again I don't think I missed the point, I truly still think killer is weaker in the broadest span, and that killer needs base kit gen regression buffs like 5 years ago. The killers I actually do the best with and have fun with only go against people with the same builds over and over, it is definitely boring and annoying. The point of the post is just that I think it is silly to have this mindset that killer joins a game and then loses instantly with 0 hooks, while I, and many other good killer mains, don't have that problem. I know it isn't all about winning, but if they use the best stuff then why is it always a surprise when loss comes when you aren't also using all the best stuff? That doesn't make survivors op or their perks broken, it means the base game needs fixed.
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The thing is now the weights are starting to stack up.
Eg, Mori's werre nerfed as they should have been but keys were left for another year.
You mention gen regression hasn't been touched and now Survs have boons, Well hexes can be perma gone in 10 seconds.
Hit validation is prioritising survs over killers.
There has been bugs on maps, were Killer's could'nt pick up surs who moved under certain gens or cleansing stations and they did nothing, but if a totem cant be cleansed they disable a map.
Perma loop maps.
A new map with no cover to use killer powers, think trapper etc.
It's not one thing that is making Killers feel like Leper's but a multitude of things.
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Oh yeah the whole all or nothing "unplayable" argument is usually just ridiculous trash. Only fools deal in absolutes.
I think what I meant by "missing the point" (That's a poor choice of words sorry), was the first question in your post "Where do people get the idea that killer shouldn't be stressfull in a 1v4 scenario", I'm afraid the answer to that is, they get the idea from the very theme of the game.
At the beginning I fully expected a really hard game experience as survivor and a kind of oppressive game experience as killer. That's the games image presented to you from all the promotional material, recreate a horror film experience. For the first few games its like that.
Once you learn the 'ins and outs' of the mechanics, you realise very quickly that the game pressure runs in the wrong direction making the game play experience unlike the horror survival its promoted as and more like a pvp game of loopy chase.
It bums me out because I find survivor boring to play as its rarely threatening or scary when the killer is hard pressured to threaten you. More often than not I sometimes find killer a lil frustrating to play, even when you 4k its often such an effort I'm more just relieved its over than happy about the outcome. If you do 4k (sometimes even if you don't) the salt and vitriol levelled at you is off the scale some days.
I think the more powerful survivors get 1v1, the more players expect to escape and the more upset they get when they don't. That's not healthy for the game either.
Its only a game so it doesn't matter that much but it does reduce my motivation to play down to about 1-2 games a week these days.
DBD is a fun game and its possible to have really thematic, exciting, scary, fun and funny games I just feel like there are less and less of them each gaming session with every new update.
I'd love to have custom game bots, if I want a competitive PVP experience I can have it, if I want to stalk and murder everyone with Myers without breaking a competitive PVP sweat then I can have that too offline.
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Why is it that anytime someone makes one of these posts they always say "where did people get the idea that Killer should be easy/ always get 4K's". No one is saying that. We're saying that it shouldn't be as stressful and shouldn't feel as unbalanced as it is. It's such a stupid strawman argument. Not calling you stupid, but that argument has just been regurgitated just to minimize the genuine frustrations that people have as Killer.
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wasnt minimizing the situation, just saying it is silly to act like killers can never do anything in a match when that isn't the case, they need to stop acting like they have matches with 0 hooks and get steamrolled because if that is happening, it is your own fault.
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Its because you're playing this role that should be this all powerful killer vs survivors but nah they can just loop around 2 things drop a piece of wood and win
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if you are getting looped around 2 pallets and lose the whole match that is on you I'm sorry lol you can most definitely be that scary threat you want to be
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Hmm yes "scary threat" when its the same exact thing for every survivor. Lets say i leave chase to go for someone else. The person I was just chasing goes to work on a gen as I walk towards something else. And with this games generous tile spawns most likely they'll get 2 pallets into a jungle gym/shack/main building. Guess I should have just played better? I don't know every time someone says "well if you lost because you got looped around 2 pallets" with this games tile generation really makes me question them.
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plus most people ######### on the killers few ways to pressure. tunneling, proxy camping, ive even had people complain i was camping gens when they 3 genned THEMSELVES
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They are used to stomping, so it was like a frog in boiling water. That is why they tried to EASE them into mmr. Those delusional killers actually thought they were good at the game and that the roles were balanced. Reality had a different narrative in store for those poor, ignorant fools.
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I understand killer being the more stressful role and I can accept that. What kills every bit of enjoyment for me is that while playing the killer I get artificial brakes put on my ability to kill the survivors. For the sake of their game enjoyment or anything else they try to push I can't play the game to the best of my ability but they can.
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"this mindset that killers join a game and then lose instantly with 0 hooks" no one really has that mindset though so your argument is invalid.
It's widely agreed that against a competent team you can definitely get plenty of hooks, maybe even hook everyone.
Also some interesting part of your post is that, when describing Survivors running meta perks, you just described it normally. But when you got to Killer...
"You can play scummy, you can throw on the best perks, you can throw on the best killer"
Interesting choice of the word "scummy" to use to describe someone who simply wants to win as Killer. Maybe that is one of the issues, any Killer that puts on strong perks or uses strategies like tunnelling/camping is instantly described with quite severe words like scummy. But 4 survivors running DS/IW/UB/DH is just par for the course at this point.
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Except, I separated the wording between playing scummy, and using the best things to win. Not every survivor needs to play scummy because there isn't really a way to do that, unless you count throwing on the best stuff, but for killer there is most definitely things I can do that are scummy playing as a killer. A survivor can't hold a killer hostage and make them leave the match with less than 9k bp, but a killer can. A survivor can play toxic sure, but besides throwing on the best stuff, then scummy isn't super possible as killer, and if you disagree, then both sides can be scummy, but I separate using the best items, perks, addons, and killers; and playing scummy.
Also that mindset is most definitely there. You can look anywhere on any platforms and see people complaining about killer and saying they are quitting because winning isn't possible. Did I overexaggerate? Sure, but is it not true to some extent? The amount of people acting like they need noed to get kills, want noed basekit, etc. Do survivors also do this? Of course, but the community instantly shuts them down while on the killer side people act like any change is good even if it is unhealthy.
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Survivors can absolutely hold the game hostage. It's not difficult to hide on the map and rotate between tiles so the crows never appear.
Any Survivor can do this. You are claiming a Killer can make a player leave the match with less than 9K, that is literally only something a Bubba can do, and even then, you have to down them first, and it's not difficult to loop Bubba.
Then there's lots of very questionable things which are frustrating to play against, but I wouldn't necessarily call them scummy. Such as, body blocking a hook (I get its team play, but if you are body blocking the first hook when a Killer is already losing badly, then its uncalled for), excessive use of flash lights at every pallet (I get its efficient to use them this way, but its incredibly annoying). Then obviously survivors have the ability to BM at pallets, windows, the exit gates (and BM they do). Flashlight clicking is done specifically to try and rile the Killer up often.
How is that not scummy?
Your survivor bias is really showing if you think that only Killers can be "scummy" in this game.
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It's not killer vs survivor, it's SWF vs everyone else. Survivors are weak, it's the comms that let them wipe the floor with the killer.
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You never had a 0 hook game before :D? You are either lying or haven't played against a bully squad yet... ######### mate hehe. Even I personally made a killer get 0 hooks as solo survivor more than once. Being chased from start to finish and he never catches me. This game is SO survivor sided, you just have to know how to abuse it.
So your arguments don't hold up. It does not matter how hard a killer tries to win against such a squad, he will always lose. That is the point everyone is making. Yes you can tryhard, but you will get zero reward in the end. If you were playing in high mmr as killer, you would not have made this post :) no offense. All it does is agitate most killer mains, as they probably don't see things as positively as you do ;)
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Killer is impossibly difficult. You can only play one or two killers if you want to stand any chance of killing anyone at all, and even then you need 10 slowdown perks and sweat a liter just to maybe get 1 kill. It's hell.
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Nice brag. If those are not doctored, deliberately MMR dropped or lobby dodged in any way... You are truly the top 1%. Especially since you did all of them practically perkless and on Legion is highly sus. I doubt that so many people cannot loop an M1 killer :D But if they are legit... respect. But again I doubt it :p
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Look at all those ash and bronze rank Survivors you absolutely dominated! Not a single team there is not rainbow ranks.
This doesn't prove much, I could go and drop my MMR and 4K against SoloQ/baby survivors all day.
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If you are competent at the game, you can do well with much of any killer in public matchmaking. Not saying you will win every game or that there aren't problematic things left in the game, but good killer players win the majority of the time. I'm sitting at like 27 to 2 in perkless Legion 4ks just in the last couple of days. The game is just not nearly as skewed against the killer as people make it out to be.
Keep at it and practice and improve and you won't feel like it's such a nightmare playing killer anymore. There will still be things to complain about, but they'll be more reasonable.
Grades have nothing to do with the MMR value, I'm sure you know that. Rank reset was like two weeks ago, people don't play all the time. I am definitely high MMR, I have been playing killer for years and rarely get beaten hard, and I mean, just in this run I've been 4-killing some 20+ games in a row. Most of the people you see in those shots are 1000+ hour players. Tunnelling/camping/slugging are just very effective, combine that with solid chase game and you will perform well most of the time. Mind you, I usually refrain from abusing those strategies, but even then I still average between 2 and 3 kills comfortably. But sometimes it's fun challenging yourself and trying stuff like winning with the weakest killer in the game without perks.
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Shouldn't have to use the same 4 meta perks on every killer to stand a chance. That's the problem. That kills immersion and diversity and makes the game bland.
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Correct me if I am wrong.
You got a point but a the majority (including me) complains more about the fact that a lot of Killers will have very low chances of even winning at all if the survivors dont do major mistakes. If you play a Clown with the best possible Perks agianst a full team with their best Perks, the Clown will always lose and get at best 1 kill.
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I think survivors have the same issue to a degree. At least with Dead hard and Borrowed Time.
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To what degree? Because I don't believe survivors have to use Dead Hard. BT? Maybe. DS? Sure. But Dead Hard isn't necessary. They use it to get the that 3rd chance and because of the hit validation problems.
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Again, your examples of "playing scummy" as survivor weren't scummy. Bodyblocking isn't scummy, it is team play like you said, using flashlights for their literal intention isn't scummy, and BM'ing is scummy, but it doesn't affect gameplay lol. It isn't survivor bias, it is you targeting a specific thing I said, which I said applies to both sides lmao
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Let me ask you, how many hours do you have played in DBD overall?
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lol read my post again, I even specifically said they weren't scummy, just that they were questionable as they were very unfun for the person on the other side
and you basically ignored all my other valid points
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