Franklin's Change - more fun to use
I was playing Bubba this evening and I had a lot of fun using his addon that causes Survivors to drop items when hit with his chainsaw. It got me thinking about Franklin's and how it's a pretty boring perk to use, and definitely makes Survivors feel like they've been cheated out of their items (I speak from experience... always expect Franklin's when I use an item, and my expectations are usually met).
I believe that a fun change to Franklin's would be to remove the item depletion from the perk, but at the same time allow any form of damage (e.g. M2s) to force Survivors to drop their items, like they recently did for Blood Favor and Third Seal. That way, you aren't forced to M1 Survivors to get an item drop, and you can also feel free to use Franklin's on basically any Killer (like Trickster for me!). And while it would no longer deplete the item, I think that is perfectly fine--you are still removing the item from play for the time being, and it is time-consuming to retrieve the item in most cases.
Not only that, but I feel like it would synchronize much better with Hoarder, since the incentive would remain for Survivors to retrieve their item--with current Franklin's, Survivors (including myself) have little incentive to retrieve their item, especially when it's near-empty or completely empty, thus making the Franklin's + Hoarder combo less effective than it should be.
TL;DR : Change Franklin's to activate on all forms of damage, but remove the item depletion mechanic from the perk. That way, more Killers could use it effectively, but it wouldn't completely remove Survivors' items from play, except for when they take time to retrieve their item.
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This will destroy the perk. A very bad change. It's not fun.
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Horrible idea, Would make the perk completely pointless to use. Franklin's is already being used effectively by Killers. Your item loses it's depletion right? That's pretty effective. The perk isn't meant to incentivize survivors, it's meant to keep survivors from being able to use their items effectively by reducing it's charges. Don't rely on items and Franklin's won't be a problem.
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I love how so often people try to frame Franklin's nerfs as "so much better for the killer."
No, losing most of the strength of the perk doesn't make it fun to use, it makes it pretty worthless if their super strong medkit can just be picked up and still be used to heal 4 more time in 5 seconds flat.
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Getting rid of charge reduction ruins Franklins. The perk is meant to counter items, most effective on flashlights and medkits (maps and keys are generally a non-factor and toolboxes are often used at the start of the match.) No, it's not enjoyable to bring an item and be unable to get value out of it, but items aren't the end-all-be-all of the match and knocking an item out of a survivor's hand to be picked up later does virtually nothing for the killer. The medkit is still going to give survivors full heals and the flashlight is going to have as many uses as before, so all your perk has accomplished is waste a little time.
Item removal can be pretty necessary for a killer like Hag or Artist when they encounter a team full of flashlights, or for a split-pressure killer like Wraith when they encounter a full lobby of medkits. Getting rid of charge reduction renders the perk toothless. (Yes, the charge reduction is a recent change, but before that, Franklins would eat your item completely after enough time; it served the same purpose, just less reliably.)
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"a fun change"
-nerf destroyed the perk
hmm, this would indeed not be a poggers change
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The item depletion is what makes it decent. If you remove that it becomes bad.
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It's also what makes it cheap. Killers can run Overwhelming Presence for all I care.
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You mean cheap like pressing a button after you lost the mind game to avoid being downd
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Overwhelming Presence is trash. The only item it realistically does anything to is flashlights, and not even that for Hag, the killer who needs Franklins the most.
It's really not that big a deal if you don't get to use your item in a game. The only issue I have with Franklins is that it bypasses White Wards.
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Items are important, some survivors base their whole build around the item they are bringing. Why run Streetwise, Built to Last, or any other item enhancing perk when Franklin’s just gives a big middle finger to all of it for one measly basic attack? The reward for the input is out of whack. Plus, you mention Hag. As if most don’t play scummy enough, many run Franklin’s and just spin the scroll wheel when you go back for it.
To me, there’s just a certain stigma that is typically true for killers that run Franklin’s. I’ll be out of that match as fast as I can (being cautious how I say this, as I don’t want to break forum rules).
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Hags run Franklins because one dude with a flashlight can completely remove her power. It takes virtually no charge to do and they just have to follow her around at a safe distance. The only other alternative for Hags when they get a bunch of flashlight users is to lobby dodge.
While I see powerful items very often, I very rarely see Streetwise or Built To Last, even with BTL's recent buffs. And honestly? BTL counters Franklins. If your item gets fully depleted because it got left behind in chase, grab it again, jump in a locker, and voila, good as new. If it's a medkit and you don't need to use it yet, you can now perform the old Franklins counter by dropping it somewhere that you can go to retrieve when you need it. The only item that really gets hard countered by Franklins is flashlights because they're meant to be used right next to the killer.
And... sometimes the game just rolls like that. I can bring DS and get a killer that doesn't tunnel. I can bring UB+Flip-Flop+Power Struggle and get a killer that never slugs. I can bring a map and get a killer with no hex perks. Yesterday I brought a gel dressings ranger medkit and the killer was Plague. You are not guaranteed value out of the things you bring.
I dunno. I don't run Franklins as killer (with Hag, I just lobby dodge), but when I end up in a lobby with four items and the killer knocks my item out of my hand the first time I get hit, my main thought is "fair enough." If losing your item mattered to you, then it was a powerful item, and I can't blame the killer for spending a perk slot to deal with it.
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I understand your perspective. I think I’ll just end by saying I would be much more ok with the perk if lobbies worked the same as they do in mobile. Neither side can alter anything, and once all five players are found, the match starts in five seconds. No toxic switching survivors, no killer getting to alter their build based on survivor items, just come as you are ready to play. Along with it showing your item, add-ons, and perks to your teammates in the lobby.
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You know, since you're the only person here not having a kneejerk reaction to my suggestion, I'll say this: I never use Franklin's and I play plenty of Killer (more Killer these days than Survivor, surprisingly. Solo queue sucks). I used the addon for Bubba one time for fun, since I saw they had a medkit and I thought it would be fun to try out the addon. They ended up equipping three other items!
My point is that Franklin's is not a necessary perk for normal gameplay, just like items are not necessary for normal gameplay. Survivors use items left and right in my Killer games and it really doesn't matter to me, and I have good, fair games despite the items. I actually just played this game last night against coordinated Survivors on Ormond (one of them found a toolbox and was constantly trying sabotage plays) and had a great game. It was very fun and honestly, their items affected my gameplay very little (the one with the beamer tried beamer saves a few times but I always look at a wall or fake when I pick up a Survivor... imagine that).
Sadly, I did expect people to have a fit about a proposed change to a Killer perk, despite me ONLY thinking of the Killer when the idea popped into my head. Franklin's activating on any form of damage (like Pyramid Head's M2) actually seemed a bit busted to me, but I thought that removing item depletion would be a good tradeoff. It would be more fair for Survivors instead of just yeeting their item out of the game. For instance, Survivors can't take away Killers' addons, right? Even though they're not necessary to have good games. And Survivors and Killers both lose their addons after every game. Yet Killers can just remove a Survivor's item from play with a simple M1. These are all things I thought of AFTER making this post, and they strengthened my point even more for me.
I would love to see this change implemented, and it would actually make me want to use Franklin's more than I currently do (which is never. I don't even have it unlocked on most of my Killers, despite being a pre-MMR Rank 1 Killer for many, many months).
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I really appreciate your balanced perspective and thoughtful reply! Thinking about it now, Bubba did use his chainsaw in the moment of Franklin’s demise.. so it would be more thematically accurate anyways. 😉
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Truly! 😌
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I do understand that, but at the same time, if I get a lobby that looks like newer players, I'll ease up my build and switch out Ruin for something dumb like Iron Maiden. If there's a TTV, I'll bring a meme perk and a cake or BPS. Build reactivity has some nice applications.
It'd also ruin fun solo interactions like another game last night where I was Steve, another random switched to Steve, another random switched to Steve, and then the last random switched to Steve, and Steve Squad was born. Or the other game yesterday where I recognized somebody's DBZ Abridged reference in the pre-game lobby and they spent the whole game trying to save me, then held a short vigil at my death hook when I turned on spectator mode. There's downsides to the non-instant lobbies, but there's upsides, too.
Also, if I'm killer and I get four Blendettes, you can't begrudge me for wanting more detection perks than usual. Or Lightborn when it's four brightly colored TTVs with flashlights. TotH if there's three Mikaelas. There are a couple of killer perks that are useless if they're brought without considering the lobby and Franklins is one of them. Considering there's four killer perks for sixteen survivor perks, I've never found the premeditation aspect to be that unfair.
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Ok, so how would you change it then?
I don't think it's more cheap than what it used to do, aka it removed the item permanently after enough time and now you just lost something of value even if you escape. THAT was annoying. At least now you can still go back and get it even if you can't use it that match anymore.
Also overwhelming presence is garbage-tier.
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I’m good with OP’s suggestion. Make it work on special attacks and no longer steal charges over time. It should function like it did before: if not retrieved in the specified time, then it takes away all the charges at that time.
That to me allowed for adequate counterplay. Just sucking charges for a basic attack is too easy.
How could we change Overwhelming Presence? Perhaps it can also drain charges in TR, but at a very slow rate. One charge every 15 seconds, cumulative?
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How about we just keep the part where it works on all attacks and drop the part about removing the depletion part of the ability?
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honestly, overwhelming should have passive tr based charge drain.
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I disagree because your counterplay errs way too much on the side of the survivors, to the point where the perk isn't helpful enough for the killer to have any reason to run. Old Franklins was mainly used for dealing with keys, because it was the only way to delete an item and you could waste a minute and a half camping it out. No other item was worth that crippling time investment and so it generally wasn't used outside that niche - maybe a couple of meme item thief builds with Trapper and Hag. Adept Bubba. It could also hinder flashlight plays, but other than that, it didn't have much purpose and it was more annoying than useful. Which is also what the OP's suggested change is - it turns Franklins into a nuisance that just sort of irritates the survivors without actually providing a beneficial effect to the killer. It also counters White Wards even harder by making it where any down except a failed mend timer causes you to drop your item, so you'll always lose the item on death. I kept a god medkit a few games ago because I died to a chainsaw rather than an M1.
I'd be fine with decreasing the rate at which Franklins eats charges on the ground, or even making it eat a chunk of charges on hit but not continue to drain on the ground, but removing the charge-eating itself is just a hard nerf. The main thing with current Franklins is that if a medkit is on the floor for even one second, and it's not a yellow medkit, you've removed the potential for one full heal from it. This is arguably the main reason it's run when it's not a matter of one item countering your entire killer.
I'm also not really convinced that perks need to have counterplay. There are a great deal of perks out there that just don't, in any shape or form, and most of them are fine - take Plaything, Lucky Break, Surveillance, Iron Will, Sloppy Butcher, Dead Hard (assuming it's being used properly), or STBFL. Other perks only have only minor counterplay, like Sprint Burst, Tinkerer, CoH, or Pain Resonance; there are ways to react to the effect, but you can't stop the bulk of the perk. Franklins in its current state has more counterplay than any of those. Other perks have strict, opportunity-reducing counterplays like 'don't slug' or 'don't heal', and this is kind of where Franklins falls. Either place your item somewhere safe and retrieve it later, use your item ASAP, or just don't rely on having your item.
Overwhelming Presence needs a change, but I'm not sure what form that could take. Having passive item eating in TR could be either really terrible or really good with no in-between, and it's not something that can be universally balanced because it hinges on map size and TR modifiers. Legion with Iri Button or Distressing Doc on The Game/Midwich could go 'haha screw your items' pretty hard, without even the Franklins counterplay of dropping your item when you're about to enter a chase. But if you slow down the drainage effect so that these situations aren't oppressive, the perk becomes so underpowered as to be worthless in more typical situations.
Pretty much any change would be an improvement to it, but making it into a good perk is a different story.
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killer perks are allowed to counter survivor things. the special attack thing is really insignificant in my opinion.
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