Should a high skill killer win consistently?
I wanna know people's take on this.
Should there be a level of skill a Killer can reach where they consistently win or should Survivors always be at a power level where they can overcome even the strongest Killers?
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I mean survivors should have a chance but a high skill killer should have a massive reward.
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Killers should be able to reach a level where they win consistently and survivors are already at a level where they can overcome the strongest killer* (just not as an individual)
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Considering the skill ceilling of killer is much higher than survivor, yes. They should not be unbeatable, but losing to unskillful things like spreading up on Haddonfield feels cheap.
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If we're talking about a specific killers skill ceiling, I personally don't think they should necessarily have more power just because they are harder. I've never minded Pinhead's chains being so weak and his passive being so strong, as an example.
If its an individual persons skill, it's tough to say. DbD is such a crapshoot of a game in the first place. On the survivor side, it's not a rare story that the one actual good guy on the team, who has expert game sense and great looping skills, ends up angering the killer because he looped him for longer than 30 seconds and for that he must be face camped to death and everybody else escapes. Sometimes as killer, even though you're against weaker survivors the deck is just stacked against you for whatever reason.
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As in the player, or the character?
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By Win, do you mean killing a survivor , or a complete 4k sweep? There are too many variables in this game to leave it up to 100% Skill, so I can see a master killer securing 2ks/10 hooks every round without any problem.
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In a 1v1 it's a necessity.
1v4 it should probably be a coinflip, since there's more room for skill in teamwork there.
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I mean when you reach a level of skill with nurse at the highest potential she’s pretty much unbeatable unless played in competitive against coordinated teams like oracle, agony etc…
My take on skill is the satisfaction you get from downing good survivors due to the amount of time you invested developing mechanical skill with the particular killer you’re playing. Like for example double engravings billy, very very satisfying curving good survivors around gyms and truck/car pallets..
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In a better universe they would.
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This is tough to answer but I'll try, I'd say No because the survivors have to at least have some chance at escaping even against the strongest build and add-ons otherwise why even play the game? Every killer would play the same thing and you might as well back out if it were a guaranteed victory for the other side based off getting good with one character , I feel like the game is balanced when top tier killers are being played because then it's more skill based for the survivors and more mind games are involved where the smallest mistake can cost you, I think more killers in the A tier level should be created or lower tier killers buffed to that point so that way at high ranks we don't feel like there's only a few options to choose from to stand a chance against a 4 man squad that's actually good, but at the same time I understand why the lower tier killers exist because new players have to start somewhere that's basic and easy to understand, but even if you're the best survivor in the world you're only as good as the team you have so why should the killer be able to get to a point where even a squad of the very best stand zero chance at escaping? It wouldn't be healthy for the game if that existed
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I agree that more top-tier Killers should be added or lower tier Killers should be buffed. Having a couple basic easy to pick up Killers is necessary, but the variety at the top level needs to increase
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Mmr looks at it as 1v1 and not a 4v1.
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Why should any side win consistently at all?
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The only skilled killers are the ones that don't camp and tunnel no matter what, even in the EGC
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Unpopular Opinion: The 1 should not be easier than the 4 if the 4 work as one. Why should the solo role be easier than the one that requires 3 others to play well for you to make it?
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Short answer, yes.
Long answer:
1 v 4 it very much depends on the skill of the survivors as a team. body blocking, distractions, map RNG, situational awareness where the survivor being chased leads the killer away from gens being repaired, etc. A bad team will be wrecked by a high skilled killer. a high skill team should struggle against a high skill killer and be a close game (whatever this means to you).
The killer should be the power role, especially high skill killer players. There is almost no fear of the killer on the side of skilled survivor teams. It doesn't feel right for a horror theme game that survivor teams are stronger and are in the power role against killers.
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They should but that isn't how the game is designed and it's clear it's not how the devs want the game to work.
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It should always be 2 kills 2 escapes, no matter what.
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There should be a level of skill attainable by both survivor and killer that makes the other side look like children. Currently it only works that way for Survivor -> Killer interactions and any possible tool a killer has for skillful interaction is either nerfed or ignored.
Like take a look at the artist. They had a really amazing opportunity to turn her into a long range sniper type killer by making crow swarms landed from a distance take longer to take off, which still wouldn't have been OP mind you because it would have taken 4 crow hits for a down. But no, thats too much fun.
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High skill killer players do consistently wipe the floor with average players when they’re matched up. Just look at the top streamers, for example Otz, who consistently has something like an 80% win rate because he always beats the matches which have average survivors.
I think the less clear question related to this is, when a killer and the survivors are both playing extremely well, what should be the result? The devs goal is apparently to have some survivors live and some die be the median results, with 0 kills and 4 kills the outliers. But there are a number of killers who post who seem to think that the goal should be a 50/50 split between the generators being done and not being done, which conflicts with 1-3 kills being the most common outcomes. Assuming the devs aren’t changing their goal then the next question is what is the statistical spread of results in matches where all players have very high MMR. Does that fall in line with the 1-3 kill goal? Or is it skewed toward one end? Unfortunately there’s no good data that I know of to look at toward that question, but I’m guessing that’s the type of data the devs are pulling.
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Unless you want to learn all killers at once, playing survivor requires more skill.
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There's far too much RNG in this game that takes a bite out of skill...for both sides.
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lol, since when?
just 1 is enough.
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The Nurse says hi from her skilll ceiling that's so high it has made a bridge to mars.
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Survivors don't have to choose which killers they want to play against, so automatically while playing survivor you have to learn how to play against ALL killers with different powers and different addons. At the same time survivor is just a skin without any abilities, so you can pick 1 killer and master him without even touching others, because every game you play against the same opponent.
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I can see your logic behind it, but it's not really true.
Learn how to play against a killer is usually way easier than learning how to play that killer.
It's like few simple rules for each killer. Break line of sight, predrop pallets, etc.
But easiest way? Hold W... That works against most killers.
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Funny joke.
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>Learn how to play against a killer is usually way easier than learning how to play that killer.
That's true. What I'm saying is that killers not necessarily have to learn all killers, while survivors forced to play against all killers and it's mandatory to learn counterplay to each killer
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Lol, survivor takes zero skill. You just need to know enough to stay spread out on gens. Hop on comms with your buddies, run all 2nd chance perks, and insta throw pallets to keep the killer from getting hits/downs and it's ez clap. There are like 40+ pallets on every map with busted structures. You have to seriously try hard to lose in this game as survivor
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When surivors can do it right now, assuming they all play well and are coordinated, why not killer.
Or does anyone think that serious 4 man SWF of good players with meta perks whos only purpose is to win won't destroy all gens each time around the 5 min mark and escape with 3+ survivors almost guaranteed.
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You usually have to learn multiple killers. I doubt there is any player that found his main on first try...
Also you need multiple killers to unlock optimal build and you usually play them.
I don't think there is any player that played only 1 killer from start.
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Killers should fee.powerful. Not necessarily win all the time although they should win the majority in my opinion. It needs to be fun. Right now you feel like a peasant and can't even do anything sometimes which obviously is no fun.
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You don't need to learn how to counter each killer. The base game already favors survivors, so you just need to learn how to use that in your favor. You can be horrible at running a Doctor, but if you just hold W away from your teammates, use some good exhaustion perk to carry you to safe areas and pre-drop some pallets you'll be fine.
Your objective as a survivor is doing 5 gens and opening the gates. You don't need to be good at looping or anything fancy. As killer the objective requires you to be good at chases, because there's no other way to kill survivors (well, maybe basement Bubba).
Also very few people play only one killer. There's 26 of them right now and I'm pretty sure the majority of the playerbase plays at least a handful of them.
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Its honestly more of a tough question than people realize.
Lets look at other games in which professional players play in a ranked game mode (that is pro players who are on actual pro teams and not just solo queue heros)
I cant use a similar genre game because it doesn't exist. So i'll use other common ones. League, CSGO, WoW.
League you see pro's in the highest of the high of solo queue ranking. Challenger. They get there with somewhere between a 52 and 55% win rate. This is just above 50/50, so what we would call a 2k 2 escape match most likely.
CSGO. Pros are never really in ranked solo queue they do private servers/scrims so this one is harder to say. But of the pros that smurf and do play solo queue all are 100% the highest rank in the game and generally (depending on the player and what it is they specialize in) they will high or top frag (that is carry)
WoW. This one is by far the most obvious. Pro WoW arena players will absolutely dominate the arena ladder. So much so as having upwards of a 95% win rate until the highest of high ratings.
So if we ask ourselves. Should the literal BEST Nurse in the world be able to 2k every single match or 4k every single match. The answer generally, SHOULD BE, that the best Nurse on the planet should be able to routinely 4k if they put full effort and use a meta build. Now if you take an above average Nurse player they should probably 2-3k every round. With occasional 1k-0ks and occasional 4ks.
Then you have like. Clown and Legion and Deathslinger. In an ideal world nearly all the killers would be viable at higher MMRs but they are not.
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The reality of public matchmaking already is that a highly skilled killer player will win consistently. Prior to MMR, highly skilled killer players boasted win streaks of hundreds of matches in a row, and even now with MMR in place good killer players still win some 80+% of their matches.
In fact, skills are much more rewarded on the killer side because in order for a survivor side to be "skilled", four skilled players have to come together. A highly skilled survivor player in solo queue won't have 3/4-escape matches with nearly the same consistency that a highly skilled killer player will have 3/4-kill matches. In reality, the solo survivor's 3/4-escape matches will be a tiny fraction of the killer's 3/4-kill matches. To have decisive wins like that as a skilled survivor with any consistency comparable to that of a skilled killer, you need at least 2 other skilled survivors to queue with.
I don't think it should be possible to have ridiculous win streaks like killer players used to be able to have, but good players winning more often than not is okay, it doesn't actually have to be a perfect 50/50 split. MMR has improved things in that regard, ridiculous streaks do seem impossible now, and while the better and best killer players are still only seldomly really challenged, the incidence of challenging matches is probably around 1 in 10 now, rather than 1 in 100, a tenfold increase as compared to the free-for-all chaos that was rank-based matchmaking. (Likewise of course, MMR has made things much tougher for 4-SWF teams that used to be able to achieve similarly as ridiculous streaks, now they will much more frequently encounter strong killer players using strong loadouts and strategies.)
MMR was a step in the right direction, from here I would want for the system to be made more strict (much harsher rating decreases for losing) such that the MMR brackets are more strictly separated, and for the matchmaker to perhaps be a little more strict as well, at least when looking for pairings for highly rated players, even if that results in somewhat increased queue times at high MMR. I would rather have queue times take a few minutes longer at high MMR than for players on either side to get shafted by ridiculously lopsided matchups as frequently as they still do now where BHVR seems to have relaxed the rating and/or matchmaking logic so much that the size and frequency of skill and experience disparities are on the rise again.
And hell, perhaps they could introduce a "casual queue" alongside the "competitive" one after all, although I'm not entirely sure how that would be set up such that players don't simply go there still using the strongest stuff and playing their hardest, just because they want easier wins. Maybe disable DC penalties in that queue such that "sweaty" matches can just be skipped if players don't feel like it. That way players that often play in such ways in the casual queue will have non-games too frequently for them to continue to do so.
Post edited by zarr on0 -
I would say yes but survivors low skill ceiling along with massive maps and gen speeds say otherwise.
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Look, at least half of killer roster have very simple powers and are easy to play. Wraith, pig, hag, legion, myers and so on. So unless you want to master a bunch of really unique killers, overall learning killer should be easier than learning survivor.
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I get it, you're a killer main and don't play survivor.
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I actually play 60% killer and 40% survivor, but nice argument.
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A high skill kilelr should not always win or 4k, but he should feel like he can make use of his skill to achieve good results (shorten chases, apply good map pressure to gain more time etc).
As survivor, it feels very rewarding if you have good position, camera movement, you run the loops close and achieve the fast vault. You get rewarded instantly for your skill.
As killer?There are a few killers that have powers that help them in the chase, those are the ones that can make skillful plays and get rewarded (and they are the fun ones to play), the other ones? nope
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I can aggree with Wraith, Legion and Myers.
But you really think that Pig and Hag are easy killers?
Using Pig's crouch + charge effectively is not an easy task and Hag has just completely different playstyle compare to any other killer.
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Yes, they should. There's nothing less fun than playing well but always losing, as killer against survivors no less.
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I reckon killer by design should be threatening enough that in the hands of a hilghly skilled player they should have no problem clean sweeping.
My motivation for playing this game though is that survivor is scary and killer is powerful. But often survivor is boring because most killers aren't that powerful and killer is often frustrating because you just face cocky bold survivors who have no fear of the killer.
It kills the theme for me and as such the fun.
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Everyone on this forum is high MMR, yet they say they lose every match ever because killer is impossible right now. I wonder how they are still high MMR?
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It takes a lot of skill to master nurse, and most people who main nurse and have been able to master her, seem to be doing just fine.
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