Since when did the whole forums start saying survivor "takes no skill"?
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A lot of players have said survivors take no skill since the start this is nothing new. I'd agree that survivor is stupidly easy compared to killer but that's a necessary evil admittedly.
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lol both sides require skill, of couse if you switch to survivor after being a killer main 24/7 its easy, thats because you're in the lower mmr lmao these birdbrains man.
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This. 100%.
I fit this criteria where I was like 90% killer, 10% Survivor. Since switching mostly to Survivor, the game literally has shifted genres for me to a game I can play after work to relax.
Killer is so damn stressful and they just keep making it more and more stressful every patch it seems... that I can't ever see myself playing it again consistently.
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Don't act like scum and you won't be referred to as scum. The players are taking about the bad mannered ass dancing survivor players, not every survivor player. I do play survivor alot. About half and half. I play solo and I know solo survivor sucks. It's no fun. I think most of the issues are with the SWF groups that act like pieces of #########.
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I remember when the joke back a couple of years ago was always survivor entitlement and that killers were usually the bigger person, taking more skill, and being more humble but man has that taken a turn.
It sucks because the big thing killer players used to always say, both sides really, was to rewatch your matches and try to improve. Even during a time when the game was way more sided to survivors trying to improve was what you wanted. Now if you lose, it couldn't possibly be your own fault, it was the dirty 4 man comp team, when in reality it was because you didn't pressure and just played poorly. That isn't a mindset anymore.
It is so sad the community praises killer mains like Otz, Ohtofu, Dowsey etc. and talk about how good they are at the game, but then when they say "the game isn't THAT lopsided, you can be good if you just improve" oh suddenly now their opinion isn't viable anymore lmao.
Not to mention that a majority of the "killer mains" on the forums or subreddit will complain about the game being horrible and impossible, and then when you ask how long they play, it is almost always a newer player lol
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"the game isn't THAT lopsided, you can be good if you just improve," proclaims 10,000 hour streamers who make their living by playing game for 8+ hours every day.
Did you know that the level designer in the game "Catherine" ended up getting so good at playing the game, that he ended up making levels that nearly no normal player could beat? They had to move those levels over to a special arcade challenge mode because the man had lost sight of a typical user experience. That is what it's like like professional streamers talk about "oh comms don't help survivors THAT much," or "any killer is viable," or "well THIS power definitely has be be nerfed! Look how often I 4k with it, despite 4k'ing with every killer every time because of my overwhelming experience advantage."
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Survivor does require skill; it just requires less than killer does to be good and experience with one survivor is directly transferable to another survivor. Killer experience is not 100% transferable.
I do play both; I'm not going to play half a game and killer is the harder role. Also, playing both sides does give a better understanding of where each side has a point and where they don't. Survivors do have some legitimate complaints; as an example, killers do have more power to wreck a person's gaming experience (eg just because you can end a game with five hooks or less in the early gamedoesn't mean you have to. Kill them mid-game and instead of getting 3 to 5K BP per survivor they get 10 to 15K each and instead of 10K BP you get 30K). An SWF bullying a killer, though, is worse because at least a killer ending the game quickly is ending the game quickly as opposed to dragging the experience out.
For survivors, why tbag? It's just annoying. If it's a new or severely outmatched killer, don't humiliate them just to wreck their day. Either end the game quickly or lead them on some chases so they can get some BP out of the game. And also the game mechanics favor survivor more and more as MMR increases; don't be toxic. I know this doesn't apply to the majority of survivor players but there is a sizeable minority that is toxic. Call out the toxicity and try to reduce it.
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Great post, exactly how I feel watching videos from OhTofu and ScottJund talk about how SWF doesn't give any advantages and isn't a problem
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Yay, this again.
See: here's the thing.
You say 'echo chamber'.
I say 'when one side of your APvP game is making 90% of the complaints, chances are that there is a problem with that role'. The majority isn't always right, but that doesn't mean it's always wrong either.
Killer complaints seem to come in 5 broad topics.
- Balance. Keep in mind that more than half the maps are strongly survivor favored, and several either have absurdly strong loops, too many freebie gens, stupid hook spawns, pseudo-infinites or are just too big and dense to really contest against strong groups. When the results of a trial so often feel determined by which killer is sent to which map - that's a problem. And that's before we dip into stuff like Boons, Dead Hard and the like. I'm not going down the 'the devs hate killers and love survivors' hole, but I don't think that even you could argue that balancing killers and balancing survivors isn't handled...very differently.
- Meta. This is related to the above, but essentially - only a handful of killers are really viable at high MMRs unless you enjoy getting slapped by map offerings and coordinated groups. Not everyone wants to play Blight or Nurse and tons of killers either have terribly outdated kits or have received bizarre, often too heavy-handed nerfs because they were doing too well at low MMRs without any regard for viability outside of these matches. Slinger, Wraith and Cenobite are my best recent examples.
- SBMM. It's an improvement on ranks, sure - especially since under ranks killers had their matchmaking protections almost entirely removed. But you'll still be thrown to high MMR SWF groups with 10x your hours played on their lowest member if they happen to wait in the queue for too long.
- SWF. This has been a contentious topic from the get go, and it's just so strange to me that SWFs don't have an MMR adjustment (as they do in...basically every other game). Taking a solo/killer matchup at an MMR that is designed to be an even match and then turning that arbitrarily into a SWF/killer matchup - that's where you get stupid stomps.
- Toxicity. The crowning cherry on top of all of this is just how filthy survivor groups can be without any provocation. It's one thing to lose a game, it's quite another to have the other side stall it out for half an hour to meme on you/play hide and seek, or gloat at you by teabagging/flicky flicky from the exit gates. This is the stuff that gets under your skin and makes playing killer all the more frustrating. And beyond this, you have the SWF groups who are both already good at the game and have a huge advantage from voicecoms/coordination who can then add on a Badham offering, a further hook offering and stacked addons and perks - these are the groups who don't just want to win, they want to stomp. They want to hurt the killer at a fundamental level to demotivate them - and I know this because I've had groups tell me in postgame that their goal is to make killer players uninstall.
It often feels like a role for masochists, who are there purely for the entertainment/as a punching bag for survivor players and yeah - it gets old, both due to bizarre balancing/mechanical decisions and the actions/attitudes of survivor players in general.
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Around the time the devs balanced the game around hold w, drop pallet, and made looping inefficient in comparison to that. I'd like the game to return to being more skilled for survivor but right now a 5 hour newbie can run a 2000 hour clown for ages by simply running to every single pallet and dropping it.
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Because survivor takes no skill just to win. Get on comms with your friends, hard split on gens, run all 2nd chance perks, and insta throw every pallet because there are 40 of them on every map and you will 3+ escape no matter how good the killer is. Real skillful
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Both roles are easy imo.
The problem I'd say, survivor's skill is simple and repetitive.
And killer's skill feels like it doesn't matter.
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Because it's true. After you overcome the initial learning curve as a new player it's a breeze.
But more importantly it's relaxing and stress free, to the point of being boring. You can watch TV or eat food, chill out and read chat etc.
People who say SoloQ is hard because of bad teammates clearly never played a real "competitive" game where it's standard practice to hard carry randos. DBD is easy by comparison and since the win condition is vague/non existent escaping hasn't mattered for most of DBDs lifetime anyway. It was always about farming bloodpoints or emblems by goofing around. I guess now with MMR escaping sort of matters... but not really.
If the Killer plays sweaty, picks a top tier killer, uses the best addons, tunnels, and disregards all of the "survivor rulebook" it can be brutal for SoloQ, but that's rare imo. Worst case scenario you take a quick L and move on to the next stress free game. However if a Killer is badly outmatched they're trapped entertaining a bunch of premade clowns until they decide to end it.
It's crazy to think just how Survivor sided this game was with vacuum pallets, more safe loops, more pallets, infinites, god loops, BNP...
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This. I couldn't have said it better; poor sportsmanship ruins the fun for everyone and kills immersion.
And this. I have friends who are Survivor mains that actually listen to music while they play then they try that as a Killer (on the rare occassions they play it) and realize that sound is super important and oh yeah you have to actually pay attention as a Killer or you get stomped and teabagged at the exit, kinda like how they do to Killers when they're on the other side. It's always glorious to see, but the point is - Survivor is easy mode. Indisputably. Simple, never changes, once you learn it you learned it and you just refine a specific skillset. Killer is a different animal - each Killer and perk combo is a different game, each map affects how you play as a Killer, every little thing matters. Survivors can just throw on a meta build and a flashlight and go; no further thought required.
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Amen. Even my measly 3k hours puts me leagues ahead of the average player barely hitting a few hundred and it shows. Now imagine that but multiplied many times by someone who plays DbD for a living. You develop game sense after a while and you can tell the top DbD streamers have it in spades. Same reason why Survivors love to call hax when an experienced Killer just finds them despite their brilliant hiding spot out of the blue with no perks or powers to do so; it's just experience and game sense, but to them it looks so impossible they assume it must be cheating.
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The forums wouldn't seem so full of killers except that survivors always pretend to be killer mains. "I mostly play killer but survivors are the only players I seem to sympathize with. Let me tell you why survivors are right about everything."
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FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT
Killer mains have been pissing me off lately with their constant whining.
All well said my man
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Now I'm not one to complain about survivors. Yeah they have some Bs perks and items, and yeah they are easier to play, but I don't really care.
However, there is some merit to people's feelings towards survivors.
Oh I played bad and everyone is at the exit game. Ill just go use the bathroom... K back, oh they're spam vaulting a pallet at the exit gate with 20 seconds left... Okay...
Okay everyone is waiting at the exit gate. Oh they're waiting so I can get free hits! How nice! Oh, nope they left as soon as I swung... Okay...
Let's play blight! Ive never done him before. Oh damn he's hard, and I'm getting clicked at a lot whenever I miss? Why I'm I playing against decent survivors when I've never touched him? Oh well maybe they'll go easy since I'm clearly really bad and they seem to be having fun. Oh guess not; all the gens are done and I have 2 hooks
Don't get me wrong, there are some mean killers as well, but I've never seen a survivor give a struggling killer a kill. Meanwhile, I see plenty of killers give hatch or even let survivors finish the gens and escape
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Survivor is too strong because killer is too weak. So people will say survivor take no skill. However, there are many potatoes in the sack.
It’s like my guru says:
The highest levels of performance come to people who are life-affirming, sublime, enlightened, and spiritual. People who know to see a problem as a resonance cascade.
In DBD, most survivors don’t even know what a resonance cascade is, so how are they supposed to play optimally? But it doesn’t change the fact that the game is balanced in their favour. Therefore, no respect.
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It is by definition Victim Blaming.
Cyber harassment is a thing that exist and well I don't think I need to tell you why going out of your way to taunt/harass the killer would count as that.
Even if its only minor Cyber harassment its still Victim Blaming to go after the killer for reacting to being harassed.
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I don't mind survivors or anything.
I mind people who say being in a stack isn't an advantage. There's nothing wrong with playing w friends, but don't act like it's not the strongest thing in the game. You know?
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There has been a lot of killer players switching over to survivor and discovering the game is pretty easy on that side of the fence. Personally, I've had far less stress to deal with and doing the standard survivor things like looping, gens, saves, etc. hasn't been particularly hard to pick up.
Survivor is just isn't mechanically intensive and that is ok. Not everything should be, but also keep in mind a lot of killers have hundreds or thousands of hours playing most that specific role. So by default if they've been playing the game that long then they already know how maps run, where deadzones are, how killers would approach dealing with different types of loops. Having that knowledge makes it easier to just play the game in general. Also being a survivor means you're not carrying the entire burden of what is happening in the game alone. Frees up more brain power to think out what to do and how to do it. You aren't really stuck just reacting to everything since you have people you can mostly depend on.
Getting good at survivor if you've already been playing the game a long time, is going to feel like it takes very little skill since unless you're trying to master something like hitting only great skill checks the game isn't really pushing you to learn anything you didn't already understand.
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You're...exaggerating.
But I think others have also put it inelegantly.
Survivor and Killer are different roles with different difficulties, and survivor is certainly the easier of the two - but that's an oversimplification.
The roles are just so...incredibly different.
- Survivor has a much lower skill floor. It's a far easier role to learn, both as every single survivor plays the exact same and the majority of survivor perks are almost entirely non-interactive. The role is basically 'do gens, survive'. Everything else is just a complication of this role.
- Killers, on the other hand, have a lot more going on. You have to defend/patrol generators, chase survivors (and catch them), down damaged survivors, find other survivors and - most importantly - constantly make massive, high-impact decisions with imperfect intel and almost no time to choose. Chase or peel off and pressure elsewhere? Hook or slug? Kick the gen and risk wasting important time or leave it and risk losing it? Tunnel or spread pressure? Proxy camp or patrol?
- The mistakes of one survivor can be compensated for by teammates. Any mistakes a killer makes can quickly snowball with no way to recover.
- Killers have far less intel on survivor locations than survivors do on killer location, both in terms of perks, feedback and voicecoms.
- Killers have a lot more going on mechanically than survivors - on top of different speeds, terror radiuses etc. they also have to learn an often very complicated power.
- Survivors win by default.
Now, I would say that at intermediate and 'advanced' play survivor 'difficulty' and killer 'difficulty' on a one-on-one level aren't too far off (I'd say killer still takes the lead, but the delta is much smaller). At an 'expert' level however, the two separate out again due to just how incredibly strong SWFs can be.
Taken as a whole, survivor is much easier to go from 'new' to 'intermediate' on than killer is. I know that I've played maybe 40 hours of survivor and 270 hours on killer and it feels like I'm about equally decent on both roles now. Being a 'good/advanced' survivor and killer aren't too hard solo, but factoring in SWF and expert level play, killers really struggle.
It's like...
Survivor: New--->Intermediate------->Advanced----------->Expert
Killer: New----------------->Intermediate--------->Advanced------------------->Expert
I could...name a few. Someone that rhymes with 'LionSight' springs to mind immediately. And it's always 'nah, killers are fine, I main Pig and 4k tourney comps all day'.
I did it for archives.
Survivor is definitely easier, especially when you are starting out. Going from killer to survivor it felt like I had so much more room to make small mistakes, waste a bit of time here and there and man was it easier to pick up.
I just found the role...dull. Perks are dull, there's no special mechanic or power to learn and it's always 'hide, run or greed'. There is some mechanical skill at being a good looper...but nowhere near as much as it takes to CATCH a good looper.
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Tbh. most forget that SWF's aren't in every game.
Often its not 4 vs 1, its 1111 vs 1. Your mates can ruin your game aswell.
For example, a game is mostly lost, if you play solo and someone disconnects instantly.
But the thing is, its just wrong to say that survivors dont have any skill at all. Of course on the high ranks its survivor sided, when you have SWF's who all can play good.
Oh and...
"You're...exaggerating."
Like most killers on the forum?
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In any ranking system that works properly, premade groups will gravitate towards the top because they win more. That's why so many games have separate queues for solos vs teams. Coordinated teams are always stronger.
So yes, if you are an above average killer (or you just play a lot), logically you should see more SWF than a new or below average killer.
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Play as solo to 4 escapes could be as stressful as killer. The problem with killers with so many hours in this game is that they think they deserve 4k, and that’s not true
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Nope survivor is not stressful at all.
And why would a solo care about 4 escapes?
If you only care about escapes, it should be 1. Yours.
If you want to fool around with endgame saves or sacrifice yourself for others because it's fun, then do it. Still not stressful.
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