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Dead Hard NERF or change
I remember when we had a Hex: Ruin change, one of arguments for that change was: " every killer, more than 90% killers use Hex: Ruin, so we have some changes about this, for balance". So, my question is. When we'll have same modifications on Dead Hard?. EVERY GAME 4 survivors with Dead hard for distance, for pallet, for window, for avoid hit, and plus this, now we have a hit validation help. Honestly, i play survivor equal Killer and i use dead hard too, but, guys. This game is getting ridiculous, boon totem everywhere, you cant breath playing as killer, if you do that, you receive some cute tbag and toxicity. This game its becoming too much survivor side like was in 2016,2017. plus this, playing SoloQ as survivor is a joke and we need buffs or attention for this, because SWF vs SOLOQ is so much desbalanced.
Comments
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If Dead Hard is too powerful it’s because it is now possible to both use it to react to a swing as the animation starts and 100% avoid a hit AND use it to gain distance preemptively to reach a pallet or vault. Either of those effects on their own are quite good, and both effects combined make Dead Hard one of the best survivor perks in the game currently.
If the data verifies that Dead Hard is too powerful now that it’s working properly, the fix is probably to reduce or remove the added movement distance it grants. Just make it a free miss on an attack with little or no distance. It would still probably be quite good simply if it avoided hits and wasn’t useful for distance. Just my opinion though.
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If the developers thought Dead Hard needed a nerf, they would have nerfed it when they were fixing the hit-validation a patch or two ago. They obviously aren't seeing data indicating that Dead Hard is out-performing other endurance perks.
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I still can't understand how devs thought it would be fine to give iframes to survivors (????)
I know the game is supposed to be unbalanced, but holy #########
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Or they could have fixed the hit validation in order to allow a new form of Dead Hard to work properly when it's introduced. The perk is clearly more powerful than the majority of perks out there and a few of the other changes they have made, Spirit and Deathslinger for example, line up with making a more balanced version of it in the future.
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With the current state. Im not sure if they even look at those data numbers nor how exactly they look at them. Data itself means alot and nothing, especially not in thinking of the purpose of DH usage. intentional, coincidentally or just panic fail
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From a killer's perspective I can understand the frustration.
However, from a survivor perspective (and game design perspective), it's probably one of the most well designed perks in the game. The most fun in the game for survivors is looping. This perk gives survivors another option in chases and makes the chase even more interactive for survivors. It makes chases a lot more fun for survivors because they now have an opportunity to outplay killers. I would be honestly amazed if the developers removed or changed Dead Hard, just because of how much it adds to the survivor side.
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The Perk is nowhere near balanced. It eats up Killer Powers, it grants Survivors a 3rd health state that can't be countered and it extend loops by 30 seconds minimum if the Survivor is somewhat good at looping. A Perk that grants the power role so much time to do their objectives is not balanced, healthy nor fun to play against
Edit: Typo
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Like I said, from a Killer perspective, I understand the frustration.
However, from a Survivor perspective (and a developer perspective), it adds a lot more fun to the game for 4/5ths of the player base, because it adds more options and more chances for Killer/Survivor interaction in chases. Which is the funniest part of DBD.
As for being balanced, if the Developers were seeing data where Dead Hard was outperforming other exhaustion perks, then it would have been nerfed. In fact, when the Developers fixed hit-validation, that would have been the exact time the Developers would have fixed Dead Hard. The Developers do have that data, as shown by nerfs to other perks that outperform.
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So Killers should forget about anything unfun to get balanced just because the Survivors are enjoying it? Smh
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You're right, it does add a lot to the survivor side, but it's not a critical component to outplaying a killer. It's only really needed against Nurse now, all the other killers can be outplayed in other ways that don't involve just get in the killer's face and pressing a button.
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DH validation is super suspect. The other day I hit s survivor vaulting over a pallet. Somehow DH hit validation kicked in as if they had hit DH while still on the pallet. that's more than a 1 sec delay and i'm hard wired in my internet so it wasn't my side that had issues. DH in general i think is ok as a perk. while it is by far the strongest exhaust perk i don't think it's abused nearly as much as BT since it was buffed.
Idk what to say besides i hope someday we see more block chain style servers where there is consensus on these types of conflicts so it isn't all one-sided.
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Devs are looking into it/view it as a known issue.
See my topic for the support message.
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Good to know the devs acknowledged this mess of a Perk
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Because it didn't take them 4 years to nerf the most busted survivor perk in the game?
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Dead-Hard adds a lot of play value to the survivor side.
Sure, getting out-played is always aggravating for the other-side and Dead-Hard offers a new way for survivors to outplay killers.
But if you look at it from the survivor-side (and game designer perspective), there's very few perks to interact with Killers during a chase. Dead-Hard is one of a very-very limited (I would say less than you could count on one hand) perks that adds a new dimension to chases. Getting rid of Dead-Hard would just be insane from a game designer point of view. Why would you want to eliminate dimensionality from your game. In fact, you would want to add more ways for survivors to interact with killers, not remove them.
Also, let me point out that no-one has EVER shown any data showing that Dead-Hard outperforms the other endurance perks. And of course there is the false equivalence fallacy in which people say that Dead-Hard is an "extra health state". The two aren't the same at all.
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You're not getting outplayed when a Survivor uses DH, you get screwed over by a Perk, not by skill.
Interaction with the Killer is only fun for the Survivor, as it doesn't impede their progress on their main objectives, while it does interfere with the Killer's objective, which isn't bad as looping is balanced (aside from certain loops). What is a problem however is Dead Hard, it's only interactive on the Survivor side while being a nuisance at worst for the Killer to being downright broken at best.
Getting rid of Dead Hard would force Survivors to get good at looping, as they won't have a Perk that corrects their mistakes anymore. Removing it would add dimensionality to the game.
Dead Hard is definitely an extra Health State, you have to play Killer to experience it, which based on your Pro-Dead Hard crusade, you don't, or you're only playing at lower MMR, where Dead Hard isn't as bad since the players kinda suck
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I see that you surely love the perk and want to defend it, and you throw up a few good points, like that it adds some gameplay element, BUT (here comes the inevitable but) the past has shown, not just in dbd, but all the other game systems and mechanics out there, that if something is so good that it becomes a sort of instant choice or no-brainer, barring some special build or something, then it is probably too strong.
In such a game there will always be perks or builds that are mathematically better or even the strongest, but DH is actually in a leage of its own. You can prefere Sprint Burst or Lith if you want, but both of this perks take a bit more work and demand somewhat special situations, where as DH will nearly always be a great or even awesome choice, because of its variable ways of employment.
We have no data, thats right, but there is no other perk that you have a good chance of seeing 3-4 in each match; only seeing 2 DH in a match is already rather uncommon or even rare, and seeing it not at all might only be possible in the absolute lowest of the low ranks, its just that good. The other perk that you see very often, but still nowhere near in the same ballpark, is BT, which has its own issues, but BT is mostly ok. People hate that it bastardized and not used as it was originally intented, ie protect the unhooked surv from being tunneled; instead in the modern meta its used quite aggressively by bodyblocking the killer, denying him completely any progress at all. This us aggrevating, but something that most of us can live with.
DH, though, is so prevalent and offers so much. Each of its base abilities, ie gaining ground on command or gaining invisibility frames on command, is pretty strong, yet it combines both into an absolute meta package that few survivors can resist at all. And you can't blame them, but DH is so oppressive in chases/loops/unhooks, that it might actually be a third health state. Yes, technically it doesn`t work like it, but in praxis killers have to deplete it, before they can put 4/5 of all survivors into the dying state, so it factually is a third health state, that you must press a button in the right moment to employ.
I dont really know how to tackle the issue, and it would be wrong to utterly destroy and nerf the perk into the ground, as I can see its appeal, but its power definitely needs to be curbed down, because its so dominant over the whole spectrum of the game. Maybe give it either invulnerability frames OR distance? That alone would do a lot. Or maybe increase its exhaustion timer, I dont know. 40s is long enough that it can regenerate quickly, if you lose sight of the survivor for just a moment and he escapes, and then you have to deal with it again.
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Survivors have gotten killers nerfed for being "unfun" to play against so it's only fair if survivors get the same treatment now.
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Things is, most of those Killers weren't even OP, aside from Spirit ig
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Doesn't really change my point. It's only fair that both sides get unfun things removed of we are doing it for killers otherwise why not just only play survivor?
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I didn't want to change your point, I was adding to it. A Killer doesn't even have to be good to get dumpstered
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I rarely ever play "Dead-Hard" as survivor, I think that Sprint Burst, Overcome and Lithe are much better for extending chases. There are maps I'll almost exclusively use Balanced Landing such as Dead-Dawg, Mt Ormond and Haddonfield just because it's so incredibly devastating in chases, compared to all the other exhaustion perks. I use Dead-Hard about the same as Smash-Hit, I actually like Head-on better.
As Killer, I've definitely been aggravated at getting outplayed by Dead Hard. But to be honest, I'd much rather play against Dead Hard than Sprint Burst, Overcome, Lithe and Balanced Landing(map dependent).
You are talking to something that isn't defending Dead Hard because I like it or because I play it. I'm defending as a survivor play because it's honestly just meh. I'm defending it because as a Killer, I don't see it being any better or worse than other exhaustion perks. (In fact I think it is worse as extending chases).
I think a lot of people are equating it being used a lot to being OP. (And of course when a Killer gets outplayed by it, they get their ego hurt). But the other possibility is that it's just more fun to use as survivor.
[Also, I very highly doubt the Developers will nerf Dead Hard, since they already had the opportunity to when they were working on it. If the developers had data indicating it was OP, then it would have been nerfed then. And I know for a fact, the developers aren't going to use these boards as a reason to nerf it. I literally have no dog in this fight.]
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Devs look, I made the 154162663 Dead Hard nerf discussion. 👀
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You are asbsolutelty right with that one ... but it also shows that it is a constant issue that is causing grief and strive all the time. The amount of all this discussions alone could be a hint that DH is in deed stronger then its competion and/or overperforms. But we will have to wait and see if BHVR will do anything about it, while we bash our heads in in the 154162664s discussion about DH :)
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But yet it hasn't been nerfed
Yet somehow slinger has been nerfed after maybe 25 complaint threads max
Kinda wild right
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Yet Billy got somehow nerfed after 0 complaints
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Nah there was countless Billy nerf threads back when instasaw was a thing but all they had to do was change the add ons not nerf him into the dirt instead they gutted him just like slinger and Freddy
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Don't forget Twins, they were trashed aswell. Man, I feel so bad for you and your mains. You all got your favorite characters trashed while Demogorgon's only nerf was reducing the 20% on Barb's Glasses and Black Heart to 15%, and I'd say that was justified, though there was no justification for the Rat Tail nerf. I will never forgive BHVR for that one
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Like old decisive strike isnt it?
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That's a terrible excuse not to change it. First of all there is nothing remotely balanced about dead hard. I also fail to see anything fun in using it. When I did use it I simply felt like the game was holding my hand because it requires no skill or thinking to press a button to gain distance free of charge.
Secondly if 80% of the lobby really enjoys using a "fun" glitch should that glitch not be patched? How is a broken perk that can literally decide the outcome of a game on its own any different? You have plenty of methods to outplay killers pressing E is not outplaying anyone.
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I have a simple change for a dead hard that will make it fair. Dead hard concept is to avoid damage like a dodge and survivors are abusing this perk to gain distance to get to the window or pallet so: Simply reduce movement speed of dead hard.
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There is so many threads about Dead Hard needing a nerf yet not a single one has shown up showing actual Data on Dead Hard extending chases more than the other exhaustion perks.
I would actually love to see someone take the time and compare all the exhaustion perks and write down chase times each one gives you. All you have to do is run the exact same course and use each perk to see how long of a chase you get.
You can easily compare Lithe, Sprint Burst, Dead Hard and Overcome by just running a route that includes a window.
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Okay here's some data:
My last 3 games.
1 sprint burst.
1 Lithe.
0 balanced landing.
0 smash hit.
0 overcome.
0 head on.
1 exhaustion perk free.
Take a guess what the others all had? Think that's coincidence?
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The Honda Accord is the most common car in America. I guess that means it's OP also. Much better than a Lamborghini.
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That has got to be the stupidest metaphor I have ever seen. In what world do cars need to be balanced or have any relevance to Dead by daylight or any other games perks?
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The simple fact that every survivor I see runs DH vs any other perk of its category. The data is there we see it every game how much it out performs. Hit validation alone allows it to outperform all other perks.
As others have said changes to DH need to be done because it shouldn't give both "3rd health state" and distance at a press of a button. Because guess what it's not just survivors playing the game there is also the Killer player too, BHVR cant just ignore part of thier playerbase. They have now and look at Que times, they are ever growing.
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BuT iT iS bAlAnCeD
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Spirit wasn't that bad just people didnt want to learn how to play against her powers. Oh no she could stand still and I dont know if she is mind gaming me or not......maybe just maybe....you dont.....yah know....run towards the "husk"
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OMG look guys we have a logic master here!
If I can spend same bloodpoints to get Lamborghini sure I think no one would buy Honda.
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I recorded 102 games and the top 5 survivor perks were
- Dead Hard: 144
- Iron Will: 107
- Borrowed Time: 106
- Decisive Strike: 93
- Spine Chill: 78
This was in October
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It means there were only 144 DH in 408 survivors?
That's weird, my 100 games record shows that pick rate of DH is 78%.
More than 3 DH in a match in average.
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When a killer is able to "outplay" the survivor they usually end up getting nerfed.
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It would be nice if it could at least be fixed and not work as a counter to certain killers powers like Twins and Nemesis.
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It did not count any perks I ran, the version which took my perks into account as well would've made iron will the top one. However, I was matched consistently against/with some very good streamers and players.
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What needs to be done is after using a dead hard the survivor can't interact with a pallet or window for 3/2/1 seconds. This perk is abused to high hell by cocky toxic survivors at high mmr.
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"being fun" should not equal good reason to stay in game. Old ruin and old undying was super fun for killers, it got nerfed due to too many people running it/its too strong. Dead Hard is the same
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You're equating fun with fair for Undying. The Developers had Data showing that Undying was unbalancing the game.
Old Ruin to New Ruin was a buff. I'd much rather have New Ruin than Old Ruin.
What I don't understand, is all the hate for Dead Hard yet no one has actually produced any data showing it's OP. All it would take would be to run the 40ish different routes on random maps and compare it with other exhaustion perks to see which ones are giving the most distance.
Post edited by Munqaxus on0 -
its because its a completely bullshit perk. if the role was reversed and the killer had a DEAD HARD sort of perk to fix a mistake or reach the survivor before they reach the pallet, then it would of been nerfed on the spot.
this is the consistency we have to deal with when it goes to BHVR, there is none.
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Decisive Strike is also one of the most used survivor perks and that one practically never fired when I played killer.
You need more than just usage statistics.
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In a way the killers did have a dead hard equivalent, and that is pre-nerf spirit. Guess how long it took them to fix her? 3 [BAD WORD] years
Post edited by EQWashu on1
