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Is wraith bad again?
After the nerf, and the healing boon COH, do you guys feel wraith is back to being bad again?
Had a match at autohaven and I had a very hard time keeping up. Gaining distance took forever and I couldn't keep anyone injured.
I two hooked everyone on accident, ended up with 1k but I had the most points and ruthless status so technically I did well.
However, he felt slow and sluggish and it was pretty frustrating catching up to people. He feels different. I know they nerfed is zoom speed out of cloaking but he also just feels slower in general.
I miss the old Bing Bing Boi 😢
Comments
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He was never good to begin with. His buff pushed him to C tier at best, this nerf pushed him down to D tier again
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The nerf to his lunge hurt a lot. It was what allowed him to have some sort of anti loop. Current Wraith is just old Wraith with purple Windstorm + true invisibility from 20m away. Old Wraith was never good to begin with, so...
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No he was for awhile. With speed add-ons and b4 COH the hit and run was strong.
Now they all heal instantly, and he is slow out of uncloak again unless your super close to them.
Sucks. He was alot of fun to play. :(
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Wouldn’t say bad just pretty average
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Yeah Wraith is trash tier now. This coming from a long time dedicated Wraith main and bought my first killer cosmetics with. After the buff I could never go back to using him, he's so garbage at high MMR.
The addition of boon was icing on the entire cake though, It significantly hurt his hit and run style. I don't like using NOED but that's the way to go for him, you basically have to create the best end game scenario for you. Decrease the pallets in the entire map, get No way out then snowball to a 4K with NOED your movement speed you should be able to take care of your hex in most cases.
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He was a “wee bit overpowered.”
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I snowballed a 3k at basement with Billy. Hooked 2, and temporarily had insidious from tinker and got the third off guard.
4th dude got hatch bc he hid. Decided to make lots of noise to let me know b4 he jumped in.
3k. Only9k points and nobody pips.
Guess devs don't like when that happens. I do. So stupid you get penalized for snowballing bad survivor plays.
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The lunge nerf hurt him by removing his antiloop, but CoH is the real nail in his coffin. He's always been a killer good at getting the first hit and bad at the second. He can't deal with CoH constantly and reliably erasing his hits.
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Agreed. Instaheals destroy him. If you can't keep people hurt, you get nowhere unless you commit to the chase which is fine, but they nerfed that too. So he's slow again 😐
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Yeah he sucks again. COH invalidates hit and run/makes hit and run not viable, and his chase power got nerfed by shortening his lunge.
He was actually alright until he got nerfed and boons came out, but now he’s low C tier at best if not D.
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Went from mediocre to bad. But he used to be garbage so just smile and be happy..or something.
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😬 👈 that good?
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He was always bad. So the nerf was like "#########". To beat him in chase, you basically stop him from doing anything, which you can do as survivor. He has to uncloak to hit you, and when he does that he slows down massively, making his speed practically useless. His pre-nerf lunge at best broke even with the slowdown, and now it's gone. His lunge around even short loops is clunky and arguably worse than Pig's dash attack. His lunge certainly can't reach survivors at longer loops like jungle gyms. Windows destroy him as always. I've tried to play Wraith, I really have. But he sucks so bad. The only time I succeeded with post-nerf Wraith is when I was consistently matched against bad survivors.
Here's how a chase with him against smart survivors goes down: They see or hear you coming, they start holding forward. When you finally catch up to them, you might as well uncloak and run the loop like a normal M1 killer, because if you don't, pain ensues. If you try to hit them at a window, they wait for you to uncloak then they vault it. If you try to uncloak under a pallet, they run away from the loop. If you try to hit them around the loop while they're under the pallet, they run away from the loop or drop it on you. If you try to body block them without Windstorm add-ons, you'll probably fail. Whether the survivors are in the open or at a loop, you're not gaining distance on them by uncloaking because the slowdown negates your speed.
It's such a meme killer at this point. I'd almost say Wraith is worse than Twins. Why play a killer with mobility if he's got no lethality?
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They messed up nerfing the boost after uncloaking for sure. I like wraith. I just don't get why the devs felt the need to nerf him. I guess they saw something in the stats we don't know about.
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Wraith is and has always been a noob stomper. He excels at destroying inexperienced players because he can get close unnoticed and he hard counters holding W, which is the only way that new players know how to escape chase. His weakness is looping (especially window looping), which casuals aren't good at, and he's well above average at camping, which casuals are also not good at dealing with. He takes extremely little skill to play effectively - low floor, but also low ceiling.
He's like Pinhead in that sense. He got nerfed because the low skill bracket can't deal with him at all, but in doing so, they took away his only tool to handle more skilled survivors.
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He is not bad or trash at all. But we know that this Community likes to overreact to Nerfs, the Nerf to his Lunge is not really significant and the Nerf to All-Seeing is also not much (they should have reworked the Add-On into something else).
Wraith is decent, you can win games with him. In the end, he is an M1-Killer, so his strength is limited. But this is alright, you dont need to put in much effort to play him, so it is fair that he is not super-strong, but I would not call him bad or trash.
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The nerf to his lunge is incredibly significant. Wraith is the killer I have the second most amount of time on. When it was 1.25 seconds, you could use it as an antiloop tool similar to Pig's dash, but slightly better IMO. People had to leave short loops or get hit, and he could generally ensure hits around several window structures he used to/now again struggles with. At 1 seconds, it does not function this way. It makes up his lost distance uncloaking and that's it.
I don't care about All-Seeing; it's still good and it was never necessary. But the lunge nerf is bad. It rendered him once again toothless against players that know how to loop.
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His lunge nerf kind of hurt him because now he has no anti-loop mechanic. COH nerfed the hit-and-run playstyle, which was Wraith's main style of playing.
He can use his power to catch up to survivors, but uncloaking slows him down a lot and his movement speed boost when coming out of cloaked mode is so little that it doesn't even matter.
So he's essentially just a M1 killer with nothing to help him with other aspects of the game.
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He's trash tbh
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He is not that bad as in 2017, but Im glad, if not many people play him, cuz I dont want another nerf for him. He is still doing well if u know how to play him. Although Wraith is ez to play, a lot of people dont know how to play him most efficient. Thats why I still love him.
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Wraith excelled at hit and run, sneaky gameplay. With COH, bye bye to that. Now you just gotta M1 force pallets, and we all know how that goes. Wraith's last nerf, and the addition of COH is a HUGE reason why I quit playing DBD. Was a Wraith main that loved hit and run sneaky sneaky.
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snowmen hard counter wraith
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Wraith should be even stronger against CoH... his chase potential is insane when he's cloaked. Just let them run off to heal, cloak and you're already there before they can finish or start healing. All depends on how you're trying to play Wraith.
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The nerf doesn't matter to be honest. They lowered the duration of his speed boost, well the speed coming out of uncloak is only good for lunging with anyway since it gives you a huge lunge based on how the mechanic works. Well if you are taking longer than 1 second to lunge coming out of uncloak then you weren't close enough to get that hit to begin with.
Not to mention his high speed that helps counter large maps and holding W.
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He is still extremely strong, just not as easy to play. Circle of Healing and being able to heal is a bit of a counter to his boring hit and run strategy that didn't have a counter before.
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It depends on what you mean by "bad". Having a difficult time winning if you go against 4 good and coordinated players communicating and using the best stuff? Yeah, his ceiling is pretty limited in those instances, you will mostly be fighting for a 2k at best. Having a difficult time in your average pub match? In that environment Wraith is far from bad and in fact one of the killers with the best "ease of use" to "chances of success" ratios.
I 2/3/4k with Wraith consistently in pubs, using a variety of builds and playstyles. If you are an at least competent player you will do well more often than not in pubs, with much of any killer, and with Wraith if anything more comfortably so than with various others.
While I personally dislike the speed boost nerf he received and would wish that it was reverted (it is a fairly significant nerf, both in terms of actual strength and more importantly for me in terms of the fun factor of playing Wraith), I think people are a little naive when they completely disregard the idea that there's actual reasoning behind BHVR's balance adjustments, to put it mildly.
Of course, from a perspective of the idea of facing 4 good survivors on voice comms using the best stuff they possibly can and on some of the most survivor-favouring maps, even the best, most experienced and reasonable players would agree that Wraith was indeed not even "a wee bit overpowered". However, the reality of this game is not facing such survivor groups, to much of any extent. Even now with MMR in place good killer players still win the vast majority of their matches relatively comfortably and decisively with much of any killer. And they do so because the reality of this game is that most players are mediocre at best, good players are relatively rare, and good players teaming up in SWF, using voice comms and the best loadouts is even rarer. If this game is to be balanced in its actual reality of the actual matches that actual players are actually playing, it has to be balanced with the wild disparities of skill and experience and the wild disconcertedness of loadouts, strats, tactics, decisions, playstyles, motivations, and so on in mind that is public matchmaking. That is the so-called "live balance". And rather than the few hundreds of people talking in online outlets about their personal experiences with and anecdotes of the game, I think one should have more confidence in BHVR to have a more accurate grasp of the state of balance in that reality - a reality of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of players every month, logging millions of hours of gameplay, a reality in which the entire playing experience of even the longest-standing players with years of playtime amounting to thousands of hours is matched in mere minutes. And if BHVR nerfs Wraith because he is a "wee bit overpowered" in that reality, I actually am compelled to believe that they are basing this on more accurate and factual assessments than any forum users. And with Wraith I can totally see why that could be the case, since his kit is so easy to make good use of that even average players likely do very consistently, while on the other hand also being a kit average players have a harder time playing against than various other killer kits (they don't know where he is, then he is suddenly there and they do not react fast or well).
There's a reason why Freddy has had such high average public kill rates and why Nurse doesn't. The "ease of use" to "chances of success" ratio of a killer ability is one of the most important factors in the live balance environment of public matchmaking where the majority of players are at best averagely skilled and experienced. Sure we can say BHVR should balance for high level play, but high level play is exceedingly rare even now with MMR in place, otherwise good killers would not still be 4king all day. There is simply no reality of this game in which it would be reasonable to balance for the highest level. That only happens in tournaments, and tournaments are inherently balanced by their format and ruleset. In public matchmaking, even at high MMR, the balance is already such that good players win much, much more often than they lose even with a killer like Wraith, and where even average players still kill more survivors with him than survivors escape against him. Balancing for the tiny fraction of games where there's actually a high level survivor side would screw with the 99% of other matches in undesirable, imbalanced ways that are to the detriment of countless players' playing experiences. That doesn't mean all balance changes will completely disrupt things of course, and I do think BHVR is much too slow and conservative with changes (a bunch of killers should totally long have been buffed and SWF long have been nerfed, a variety of maps long adjusted), but I also recognize that BHVR with an overwhelming likeliness is much more reasonable in their balancing decisions for the actual reality of this game as the vast majority experiences it than most of the opinions that can be read here and elsewhere.
Besides, if you do want to be able to compete even against the one-in-a-thousand occurrence of getting an actual high-level survivor group, there are still killers you can practice and play that allow you to do so - and they are super fun to play, if anything much more so than Wraith because their abilities have a much higher skill ceiling and reward you much more for practicing and improving.
Note: I do think lightburn for Wraith is a mechanic that has long outstayed its welcome. Or at least, if they want to maintain that mechanic because it makes flashlights and firecrackers a little more relevant, implement it for every killer and buff those that suffer the most accordingly. Wraith in his current form definitely does not deserve to have such a punishing drawback. If I dislike anything about playing Wraith it's seeing flashlights in my lobbies. There's not even add-ons against lightburn anymore. Sure there is some counterplay, but if I vault a window or break a pallet while cloaked, a survivor can reliably lightburn me, and out in the open without Swift Hunt I can't even uncloak against a flashlight if the survivor knows what to do.
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I feel like he's great. Body blocking vaults and pallets are your friends. Easy hits. I agree about the boon totems though. I play mainly survivor(about 70/30 survivor/killer) and I just don't think boon totems should be there. I don't run them personally and I never pay attention when they are there as a survivor. Luckily as killer though they are SUPER loud and easy to find to snuff out. I do wish when you snuffed though they couldn't re-bless it. To hell with boon totems I say!
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That is an excessively long wall of text to, basically, say "BHVR is right and the forums/reddit/streamers are wrong". Come on, brevity has its merits; you don't need 1,000 words to say that you think he's fine against randoms. 🤣
But... other people don't think it's fine to have a Killer whose only strength is the ability to stomp noobs by sneaking up on them. Someone who's a pure M1 killer against good players and will have a winrate based on the player's skill at looping as an M1 killer outside of low ranks isn't someone that actually has anything going for them.
If you balance so that anything easy to use has its powers adjusted so that it can't outmatch similarly experienced survivors, you're going to wind up with a lot of characters that are basically just M1 once you hit that skill ceiling. Yeah, people will get wins, but those same people could probably get wins with literally anything with the same base movement speed in the same game.
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Yes.
He was perfect pre-nerf. The only reason he got nerfed is that he can be difficult for new players to deal with. Even at an intermediate MMR, he was mid 'B' tier at best, and that was with great addons.
CoH completely negates him - a particulary funny Otz video of a really good Wraith getting absolutely clouted basically by this perk alone made me pretty sad for the bing-bong boy.
The nerf to his lunge doesn't look like much on paper, but in reality (factoring in acceleration and time) it's now basically useless in chase.
It still had the same problem as Pig's ambush, as savvy survivors will either just leave the loop or vault.
Eh.
He's got the same problem as Cenobite has. He completely stomps all over new players. Against moderately decent solos or an SWF, he struggles.
CoH is another big problem - Wraith's whole thing is that he's good at getting the first hit and keeping multiple people injured, and using this sort of attrition style to gradually escalate pressure until he starts getting hooks. CoH negates this completely, and his pressure evaporates. And the fact that you have to manually destealth to snuff boons is just...why?
About the only way to play him now is a gimmicky DH+Undying+NOED+NWO style, or to play a better killer. If you want to be sneaky, Myers or even Ghostface is infinitely better.
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I only tried him a few times and I suck at him. He was also the first killer and a match I had in 2018. Still ptsd from that experience lmao.
Something about cloaking and uncloaking makes me frustrated. Props to people playing him honestly and I never understood the outcry as someone who played surv more.
But then again I thought spirit was fine too. I was never frustrated vsing her any more than other killers.
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But that's the thing, Wraith doesn't only stomp noobs, unless most players in this game are noobs (in which case the point would stand that he does not need to be buffed anyway, not least because it would mean even noobs stomp with Wraith). Global average rates show he kills more often than not, good killer players win with Wraith consistently, BHVR, based on a variety of stats, an overview of the game and other things that none of us have access to, said he was a wee bit overpowered. I think you will have to start entertaining the idea that public matchmaking is actually a favourably balanced place, for Wraith and most of any killer even in the hands of an average player.
Precisely because of the fact that those people (good players) can win consistently in this game with Wraith is why he isn't "bad" and doesn't necessarily need buffs. Doesn't mean buffing him would necessarily be terrible for the game, but likewise nerfing him didn't make the game terrible playing as Wraith either. Again, what reality are we balancing for? One where good players should have 99% winrates rather than 80-90%? Where even average players should get closer to 3 kills on average rather than 2 with a killer like Wraith? Because those are realities of pubs.
Not that I disagree with the assessment that he struggles against good opponents, I've pointed out as much myself, but my point is that he is evidently good enough to be able to compete relatively comfortably against the vast majority of opponents players get in this game even now with MMR in place, otherwise it would not be possible for his average kill rates to be as high as they are. And even players that have to be assumed to be high MMR due to winning consistently, are winning consistently with him.
I don't think Wraith is all that problematically "overpowered", from my perspective of someone that likes playing as and against Wraith a lot and plays at high MMR I could definitely agree with some buffs for him. But I also don't think he's problematically "underpowered" - I still win much more often than I lose with him, I wouldn't want them to buff Wraith so much that I can even possibly beat the 1 crazy group out of 100 matches that I currently can't, if it comes at the cost of the 99+ other groups being notably easier to beat. Not saying reverting the speed boost nerf would do that, as I said I personally would want for them to revert that change, but that's also from a high MMR perspective, there's much more players in other MMR brackets and they might actually suffer from that a "wee bit" too much. I at least don't believe that BHVR based that change on nothing, again I think it's more likely their decision was much more well-informed than the opinions of many of the players discussing it, with regards to the "live balance" of this game that affects many more players.
You don't actually have to uncloak to snuff Boons, that just a by the way. I do agree that Wraith is one of the killers Circle hurts particularly much, and I hope they will nerf it at least insofar that it does not grant the 100% healing speed boost on any healing action other than its own (so it would allow survivors to heal themselves in 16 seconds within its range and that's it). Beyond that maybe they could put a cooldown on Boon perks, i. e. make it so that you can't bless a totem for 30-60 seconds after your Boon has been snuffed. Or that each survivor can only bless each totem once, so if it gets snuffed they have to find another one. ...But then again, COH is the only actually problematic one in my opinion, people barely even use the others from all I can tell, because they are just not good enough to compete for slots most of the time.
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But you have to distinguish if people are getting kills with Wraith or just getting kills with any Killer.
Because you're trying to use global killrates; bad matchmaking/team balance; and the performance of good players all at once. But each of these suggest something completely different! Global killrates obviously don't mean anything otherwise everyone needs nerfs except Nurse who suddenly needs buffs, and Pig's running out of things to nerf for the most hilariously obvious exception. The whole "this character does fine against random solo teams and then potatoes when it's a good SWF" is the recurring problem with SWF balance and how you can't have a balance where most of your players have lost the instant the match starts because of its initial conditions. And good killers getting kills with Wraith doesn't prove anything unless you can isolate how Wraith's power is contributing to that; because of the combination of the matchmaking being iffy and bad communication, you're not necessarily proving anything except "good perks and a skillgap mean you can win with M1's only".
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- Most players in this game are new. This is very clearly demonstrated when you look at kill rates of the highest caliber killers in the game.
- Yes, new players stomp with Wraith. This is what was causing the problems. His basic kit is very easy to understand.
- Find me a single top-tier killer player who agrees 'Wraith is fine right now' in the current meta and I'll be happy to concede your point. Both Otz and Tofu have talked about this, and both agree that he was heavily overnerfed.
- Not to be mean, but if you are playing against a lot of Wraiths, chances are that your own MMR is lowish (there's nothing wrong with this at all, but it would explain the success you're having). At my intermediate MMR (guessing) as survivor, I barely see them and those I do see get clobbered. Watching high level players stream, you almost never see him and when you do, he gets smashed - with the exception of one insanely good Wraith on a very favorable map that I saw a few days ago, or Otz running him with the best possible perks and addons.
- Wraith can succeed. So can Pig, Cenobite, Clown, Trapper, Hillbilly, Ghostface and Legion. The nature of this game is that it tends to snowball one way or the other. This doesn't mean that these killers are fine and don't need attention.
- That must been changed. I remember trying Wraith a few times after his nerf (when CoH was just added) and he definitely was completely unable to snuff boons unless he was decloaked. I can probably scare up an old Otz video where this was talked about if you really want.
- Do you happen to have some videos of your matches on hand? Very curious here, because your experience sounds vastly different to my own, both in terms of me playing the game and me watching others playing the game.
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And that's why one should use many different things in combination to draw these conclusions, and clearly BHVR has a mountain of more things to draw conclusions from than any of us. Maybe most killers do not need nerfs because now in MMR they actually average 50-60% kills rather than 60-70% like they did in the past of rank-based MM, and that might very well be the average target BHVR shoots for. Maybe Nurse does not need buffs because BHVR also knows that her skill floor is likely mostly responsible for her lower average rates, something they have other means to confirm too, such as looking at the kill rates in higher MMR brackets as well as games where highly-rated players actually meet her. But likewise, maybe most killers do not necessarily need buffs either, because they do already perform well enough in the game mode that actually matters. BHVR can look at stats accounting for skill brackets, ratings, loadouts, maps, rate deviations, etc., whenever they please. We unfortunately do not have those insights.
Either way, it doesn't matter what is causing people to be able to consistently win as Wraith in pubs, for live balance it only matters that they are able to. Sure differences in skill, experience, loadouts and so on could allow for that, but if it consistently does allow for it (which it does, I can fetch kill rates from various streamers), then the game is balanced in the actual reality of public play that 99% of players are playing. If even a killer without an ability altogether could win more often than not in the hands of a good player, it would only even more go to show that public matchmaking is favourably balanced for killers.
I am for SWF nerfs, that is a significant balance issue in my opinion as well. But SWFs that really leverage that imbalance are rare; 4-SWFs only make for around 5% of the player pools as far as we know, and while 3-SWFs can already be similarly problematic, they only amount to around 10%. Not to mention how few of these SWFs then actually are good players, use good loadouts, voice comms, and all that jazz. So it's not like it's the most pressing issue either, by much of any stretch.
If most players are new, balancing for those that aren't would also be worse. Again, it doesn't really matter what exactly the causes are for pubs to see an as killer-favouring state of balance as they are, with regards to the playing experience of the majority of players playing this game and how nerfs/buffs would affect it ("live balance"), it only matters that is in such a state where this killer on average kills two or more survivors more often than not and where good players win more often that not. Maybe if they were to make MMR more strict these players would stop being able to perform as well as they do now with a killer like Wraith, but that's not currently the case - and even if it were, there could still be the argument that one should balance with more regard to the majority of players that are not playing at that level.
I don't necessarily need players themselves to agree with Wraith being fine right now, only their stats. If they perform well with Wraith in pubs, then them complaining about his state of balance is frankly pretty entitled. A "they apparently want to win 99% of the time rather than the 90% they do now" kind of thing. I would have other players in mind than those two, but I can look at their Wraith stats too, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them win most of their games, on the contrary.
I don't play against Wraiths a lot, I just enjoy playing against Wraith a lot whenever I do. My suspicion is that my MMR is maxed out on both sides, I see tournament players and veteran streamers in my games regularly. Wraith is indeed not all that common a pick there from my experience as well, and again, I would agree with buffs for Wraith from a high MMR perspective (as well as a bunch of other killers), but my argument is about overall balance that BHVR weighs more heavily, and understandably so. But either way, again, when they do play Wraith good players even at high MMR still tend to win. I myself do (and can post a lot of screenshots showcasing as much, even if I know it isn't necessarily worth much), but the streamers I watch do as well. I will fetch Wraith kill rate stats from some streamers the next time I can be bothered to skip through VoDs.
If it was the case that Wraith wasn't able to snuff Boons while cloaked it's good that he can now, I've done it often enough (it was also a relief to realize he can rekindle totems while cloaked).
I don't record my gameplay, I would only be able to provide screenshots, I have tons of those. But like I said, I will go fetch Wraith kill rates from streamers with links to the streams.
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Sure. Link away.
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How is an M1 killer good at camping? With Leathface or Pyramid Head I understand, but why Wraith? Is it because he can go invisible? Because again, he has to uncloak to hit them, even though they can't tell that he's camping when they're running up, until they hear his obvious loud breathing.
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It goes to show how out of touch the devs are when they genuinely think one of the objectively weakest killers in the game is overpowered lol. I’m sure their flawed “statistics” played a role. It’s unfortunate.
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And as if that weren’t ridiculous enough, here’s the kicker. The problem with Wraith was that, although decent vs good players, he was just too strong vs new players. So the objective of the nerf was to make him weaker vs new players without affecting his strength too much vs everyone else. But instead, the nerf made him significantly weaker vs everyone else, whilst having basically no impact on his ability to stomp new players. It’s sort of comical really. Sad tho.
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It's that he can go invisible, yeah. If he positions himself a little off to the side, they won't hear the breathing, but in my experience, new players tend to take a while to recognize the breathing anyway. I like to mess around with people when I play Wraith and for obviously new teams, sometimes I'll park myself next to a gen, in front of the exit gates, or block a doorway and wait for someone to come by. They'll take 5-15 seconds to react and run away. A couple of times, a player never noticed I was next to their gen at all.
This kind of camping is super easy for a decent team to deal with, but new players rarely bring BT, DS, or bodyblock, so Wraith can seem totally inescapable. I brought it up because Wraith is easy to play when you're not very good at the game, and new killers often resort to it.
@El_Gingero has the right of it, though - the nerfs didn't really do anything to stop Wraith from wrecking newbies. His super-lunge was mostly good for dealing with looping, which isn't a concern with casual players anyway; if someone's running in a straight line, the 1.25 -> 1 second lunge just makes it so that it takes another second to reach them. And CoH requires you to own a new DLC character.
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Went through their available VoDs, which are for the last two or so months' worth of streams. I expected to only see a limited amount of Wraith games because he's obviously just one killer out of 26, but with Otz it was surprising just how little variety he seems to play - survivor, Trapper, Plague and Pinhead matches (and then Artist once she released) combined for like 70-80% of his gameplay in this time.
Anyway, here are his Wraith games (you can use the video bars to quickly find them):
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1206402019
3k (let last person go)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1218410510
2k 8 stages
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1225947677
3k (let last person go)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1230565353?t=2h44m4s (bar preview doesn't work on some VoDs for some reason, so I marked the time here)
4k
Tofu often plays Huntress and then started almost exclusively practicing Blight for a while, but he did play Wraith more often too:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1236581683
2k 8 stages
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1228290970
4k
4k
3k (let last person go)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1219837317
2k 10 stages
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1218929141
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121528278
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1196292178
1k 7 stages
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1190791908
4k
Overall:
Wins: 10 (71% winrate; 78% kill rate (83% if we include the people they let go))
Draws: 3
Losses: 1
I think this is a fairly good result, not least because the "draws" had 8 and 10 stages, which in my mind makes them killer wins. I also want to point out that Otz and Tofu usually play pretty "nice", that is, they don't camp, tunnel or slug very much at all, and those are the most effective killing strategies. They also not seldomly use gimmicky builds, definitely aren't on the best loadouts regularly. Here's the Wraith results for two examples of players that use those strategies on a consistent basis:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1234013682
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1225705782
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1198600783
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1188301236
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1184647456
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1184414516
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1207024451
3k (only 1 gen got done)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1216218484
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1224176449
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1222960833
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1221808224
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1225706185
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1227538738
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1232327840
4k
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1236980926
4k
Not the biggest sample size, but I think you get the idea. I've been watching players like this for years, and yeah, good players really have no issue performing well with Wraith whatsoever. And of course, "performing well" is a tremendous understatement here, considering we are looking at 100% win and kill rates in an MMR environment that is supposed to make people approach 50%.
Wraith isn't bad in pubs.
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Wraith is fine. The buff he received a while back made him a bit too strong. I'd say he's pretty balanced right now.
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Ah. I think I misunderstood what you meant by 'data'. I thought you had access to new kill rates for him.
Games played by people who play the game semi-professionally in random matches isn't really evidence of anything besides 'if you play killer for 5k hours, you'll probably be able to beat random groups on most killers'.
Hell, Otz did a 50 win streak on pre-rework Trapper.
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Could have fooled me since we were literally talking about those streamers and their performance with Wraith.
Good players have no issues winning the overwhelming majority of their matches with Wraith or indeed any killer. They didn't suddenly only start doing so at 5k hours either, not least because Wraith's ceiling is pretty easy to reach. Even average players do well with Wraith more often than not. Wraith is not bad, the players that always lose are. And they won't get better by complaining either.
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*rolls eyes*. Ah yes, the 'git gud' part of the discussion commences.
Yes, good players will be able to do well on any killer, especially pre SBMM. The first winner of the GSL was a Zerg.
This doesn't mean that killer balance is fine, much as the GSL win didn't mean that Zerg didn't need any help.
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He's always been bad, lol.
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MMR exists now, people still 4k all day. The best Korean Starcraft players in high MMR have winrates of 60-70% at most, and yet they are much better at SC than many of the killer players getting 80+% winrates in DbD are at DbD.
Public matchmaking is frankly laughably easy for good killer players most of the time, you can complain about standing no chance as killer or you can try and get better. And I assure you you don't need 5k hours to start killing more than 1 survivor on average, even as Wraith. Yes, I do believe a lot of people should embrace the idea of "gitting gud" and spend time practicing and improving at the game, something that is rewarded and rewarding and the only reason why I would ever even want to play the game to begin with, rather than spend that time complaining about how the game should be easier for them. I'll leave you to it.
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Yes, because SC2 MMR is very different to DbD MMR. A Grandmaster isn't going to be matched against a Gold because their queue was too long.
I'm still not seeing your point here. You just don't want any killers reworked or buffed ever, because it's possible for a good enough player to succeed on them sometimes?
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Yes, indeed, the reality of DbD is a different one - one that allows even worse players to perform better than the best SC players. That is the reality we have to balance for, not some fantasy realm where you actually face 4 "Grandmaster" survivors on comms and stuff with any frequency.
I think public matchmaking is killer-sided, everything I have ever seen only supports this conclusion and I have never seen any actual evidence to the contrary. I also think high-level DbD is worlds more balanced than people make it out to be, and again I have a lot of stuff supporting that conclusion (stats of 20+ tournaments) with nothing evidence-based to counter it. That doesn't mean I think the game is in a perfect spot. In actual high-level play with experienced teams of good survivor players using voice comms and coordinated builds, roughly half of the killers are indeed not strong enough. Some maps are ridiculous. Some survivor perks and items/add-ons are overtuned once they come in multiples. Voice comms are something the game in many respects is not balanced in mind with. There's also balance issues on the other side of that coin, but anyway, with regards to pubs, I don't think addressing all of those things is strictly necessary, since they are already only rarely an actual problem; average killer players still average above 50% kills, good killer players still get 70+%, the best killer players still have absolutely ridiculous rates. I would like to see various killers be buffed, to see problematic maps addressed, SWF receive loadout restrictions, and have "advocated" for those things frequently over the years. But I also don't think the game is in a terrible spot whatsoever, and if anything it is much more rewarding practicing and improving killer play where this can allow you to consistently and decisively win with even the "weak" killers, like Wraith.
My point ultimately is that it is much more worthwhile to concentrate on getting better at the game than hoping for or trying to effect changes to it. Not only because BHVR will do whatever they do anyway no matter how much one talks, but because it is evidently possible to overcome most of all base game imbalances - perceived or real - with skill and experience, certainly in pubs. And it's super fun and gratifying becoming better. So I would rather convince people of the fact that there is hope, that they can stand a chance as killer, that they can even possibly become good enough to win the overwhelming majority of their matches.
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Just lost to a wraith Devour Hopeing us all. Long time since i have been moried after first catch.
With an average team he is still strong.
That is the point with a lot of killers. Normal players struggle.
Good players succeed and SWF dominate.
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Only you would find a way to complain about a b tier killer only you
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