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SWF didn't kill solo Q. Survivors did.
"It's 4v1 when you're in a SWF, not solo Q.
Why would I care that people that I dont know escaped when I get nothing for it?"
Saw that in a different discussion and it got me thinking. Most of the biggest issues survivors bring up (camping, noed, being tunneled) are all things that teamwork counter. Of course we hear repeatedly that sort of teamwork is only possible in swf, but why is that?
Is it the comms? I don't think so. I think the real issue is best illustrated above. You can't have good teamwork if you don't give a damn whether or not your teammates win.
The worst part is that there is no buff that can fix a crappy mindset. Making kindred basekit, adding comms, neither will force people to see that just because they queued up alone doesn't mean they aren't part of a team.
It wasn't always this way, when I first started playing it was common to see survivors greet each other with a little booty wiggle, they would point, butt dance, use whatever tools we had to communicate and work as a team in game. Now? It's rare to see. And unfortunately we have nobody to blame but ourselves.
TL:DR:
You don't have to be on a headset to have teammates. In 2022, let's bring back solo Q communication.
Comments
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I assume communication helps with the coordination of teamwork.
I still say that rewards and punishments should be assigned on a group basis for survivors, though, including MMR.
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I agree with that, rewards should be based on individual as well as team performance.
And yes, it certainly helps, but people act as though without comms any teamwork is just impossible. We did fine for some time before swf was even a thing in this game, as I remember.
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I agree, but it personally makes me appreciate a good solo q match.
There are games (very few) where we work so well together with random that I just love it.
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SWF did "kill" SoloQ to an extent, half the reason killers sweat so hard is because of SWF.
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I saw that comment to and had the same thought. That's the mindset of the player who throws entire games over and over then blames everything but themselves.
In soloq there are times when self preservation comes first such as when people donate blood to Bubba but you can't start a match thinking that way.
I don't think that mindset is as ubiquitous as those player try to delude us into thinking either. It seems like just something they constantly say to push for buffs to survivor instead of learning how to actually play the role without discord.
I'm constantly told how every survivor is a potatoe and every killer is a face camper at low mmr but by not going in with that attitude and seing every match as a new match I've found a lot of success. A lot of failure as well, but that was the last match. This is a new one.
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The game has a unique problem. I've played a ton of online multiplayer games in my life, but I don't recall a playerbase having such poor overall game sense as the DbD playerbase generally has.
Maybe it's the lack of voice comms that prevent feedback on decision-making and positioning. Maybe it's the fact that this aspect of the gameplay is never discussed by content creators. It's all a focus on the specific chase aspects.
Regardless, players generally don't know where to be, when to be there, or what to do. The overwhelming majority of SWFs aren't even optimal. They're just not blatantly incorrect like many solo teams are.
Most of the counters that solos struggle with are fairly basic if they think about them for even a second. The killer might have NOED/has NOED = don't stand out in the open near an exit gate and get off the gate if you see the killer coming towards you and can't finish it before they get there. Stuff like that.
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A lot of the posts/people I see complaining about solo queue do any number of the following:
-come off as rather entitled or petty (such as the ones you posted)
-demonstrate a weak understanding of the game and its mechanics through the post's contents
-grossly, grossly, grossly overestimate their own skill cap
-demonstrate an unwillingness to use any of the available solutions for any particular gripe
I play mostly Solo and Killer.
They both have their issues, but people tend to exaggerate them.
Admittedly, I'm a very selfish player and will leave people on hook if I have to, but I don't look down on anyone or expect people to coddle me, either.
I'll also draw aggro, save, etc if I feel like it.
I play primarily for fun/rarely get tilted, and I honestly feel that this has helped me dissect the holes in my own solo/killer games.
Post edited by Raccoon on4 -
The biggest issue between the two, IMO, is not the communication,it's the commitment to the team.
#########, If I SWF, one of our mates speaks only French, I speak only English, and I know I will not go to second stage because they will save me. We don't need to communicate this, we just understand how the game is played and are committed to giving each other a solid teammate.
As solo, many are only concerned with their own game. That is why killers prefer to verse solos, the strength of SWF is not the comms it is in the commitment. Sure the comms help, but at a certain point, 4 really good solos are just as formidable as any SWF.
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I don't give a damn whether other people escape or not. Not anymore. There were so many games where I was extremely altruistic, dropping everything whenever I saw a wounded survivor, healing them and distracting them from the killer. I also risked a lot in order to take them off the hook in the very last second because nobody else was coming while the killer got busy. Then I got scolded in the post-game chat for not doing the gens and not helping the team.
After that? I'm done with teamwork. I'm out for myself and the rest can hang.
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It's funny because the swf-lobby before the killer-lobby is the only thing ingame that acknowledging the existence of swf or a team.
That and the team mentality of survivor players used to play with their friends. Sure, generally survivors might feel like helping another, bit when it goes downhill fast, it becomes a free for all. The best example is 2 dudes eaiting for the other to die so they get the hatch.
I think the addition of team specific scoring events could be tested. ( unhook a friend vs unhook a stranger)
Example: Escspe point: 1250 per surviing swf buddy
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I'm glad you decided to quote a comment I made in another thread without even asking for context about it, and just decided to assume what it really meant.
My comment was not about the team work itself, was about the lack of gain you actually get for working as a team.
If my team escapes and I die, who gets lower MMR and worse team mates? Me. Maybe I died and they escaped because I decided to go back and save them, who knows. I still don't get rewarded for going back and saving them besides some low BP points and maybe some feel good pats on the back, which again, is irrelevant to gameplay, it's just a ego booster.
No one said "swf killed solo q", it has nothing to do with swf. It has to do with the lack of communication available. Was SWF the ones who took communication away from solo q? No, so why would swf be the ones to blame? I've never even seen anyone saying "solo q sucks bc of swf".
The "crappy mindset" is fueled by how the game is designed itself. It rewards selfish gameplay. Saying kindred basekit wouldnt help solo q at all is just plain ignorance.
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I agree. I've said this before. If the killer is camping the survivor that is on the hook should be given compensation so people actually stay as long as they can on the hook, giving their team enough time to do gens.
Right now the camped survivor gets nothing, and imo they should get at least distraction points. A lot of people will just suicide on hook if camped, and honestly I dont really blame them. This is just one of the examples of things that should reward team gameplay.
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Honestly, I think the BP should be shared out too (or some sort of split between a communal/individual BP). But that'd mean rewriting it to only hand out BP on a delay after everyone's finished.
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Content creators used to give that advice consistently, but people's response to was to focus so hard on basically hiding and staying "in position" that they couldn't run loops effectively enough to buy time nor would they commit to doing gens. It's how we ended with the "immersive gamer" insult sticking super hard. Then high energy chase sequences caught on as a popular thing that people wanted to see and more importantly wanted to learn so the focus shifted to getting people to understand tile types, their strengths, and how to run them for most benefit.
The response was people became runners almost to the detriment of knowing when to just finish a game out by doing gens and getting the door open. Doesn't help that this game also has a lot of player churn, so more new blood in that doesn't know how to do much of anything than old blood who still plays consistently and is willing to teach.
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This is completely true. I solo queue when I play survivor but occasionally get party invites. I don't use comms and won't use comms for survivor but I have a lot more escapes in a party simply because my teammates will try to save me if I'm hooked. In solo queue, that can be quite a hit or miss proposition.
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I mean a lot of what you point out is common sense.
I have always stood behind the fact that the only thing SWF provides that makes a difference is reliability. Communication becomes secondary when you have that.
I remember someone telling me this isn’t a “team-based game” because you can be on a gen by yourself and do objectives by yourself. Completely missing the entire point that some of the worst matches I’ve had have been due to the lack of people being allergic to gens. (I have seen this on every grade from Ash to Red)
It not just that people play selfishly but inefficiently as well. They deserve every bit of bad reputation IMO. Because it is that bad especially when you get paired against a high MMR killer.
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Name checks out.
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It's 100% all common sense stuff, but that's the easiest forgotten.
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It's 4v1 when you're in a SWF, not solo Q.
Why would I care that people that I dont know escaped when I get nothing for it?
Go ahead, add that context. 😉
Oh wait, you did, and it's still the exact same sentiment? Oh well. Tbf, the reason I quoted you wasn't because you were the first I've seen with that mindset, just the best, most concise example of it.
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That's the best mindset for joining the game IMO.
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I usually check people's post histories when I see stuff of a similar nature.
Usually makes me think that the posts/mindset/gameplay all come together into a beautiful self-fulfilling prophecy.
:3
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I do that with the "I was disconnected and got a 6 hour ban through absolutely no fault of my own" threads. 99.9% of the time you can find the post where they brag about how often they DC.
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I already added the context above, "😉".
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Most people here don't actually know how to play the game so they blame their teammates. Solo Q is fine and doesn't deserve any buffs like they're some sort of baby that needs bottle feeding.
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You did, and it changed nothing. Not sure what you expected, but there we are. You need the game to personally reward you in order to make you give a damn about your teammates.
Maybe it's because I started playing team based multiplayer games back when the N64 was the hot console you couldn't find in stores, and a "battle pass" was what the laser tag arena called their seasonal admission scheme, but I tend to believe winning the match should be incentive enough to work as a team.
It's just two different thought processes. When I die and see 3 teammates escape I think "nice, we won!" When you are in that situation, as per your own comments here, you start to worry about the mmr rating (which, side note, absolutely hilarious that you think the mmr in DbD works or matters enough to care about)
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Exactly. Amazing what a bit of team spirit can accomplish.
Also I just love the idea of people from different countries, who speak different languages, bonding over the shared language of butt-dance 😉 when I was a lad and we saw the first internet (ARPNet made primarily of stones and bits of poo) that was always the promise, that this fancy new tech would have you making friends in countries you've never seen, and part of me gets excited when I see evidence that actually does happen.
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You did, and it changed nothing. Not sure what you expected, but there we are. You need the game to personally reward you in order to make you give a damn about your teammates.
That's the point @Marigoria was making. The game actively incentivises selfish play.
And as much waffling as I see going on here about 'commitment', none of it matters when communication is key to teamwork and solo queuers don't get any. I'm not a solo oriented player, I will help my team any way I can. I specifically ditched the Spine Chill/Sprintburst combo because everyone else would be on death hook and I wouldn't have been in a single chase. I once took three protection hits in one chase against a tunnelling nurse. My favourite playmaker perk is For the People.
None of that matters. Comms is the big benefit Swiffers have over solos. Not commitment. You can get plenty of that in solo queue as well.
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In what way, specifically, does the game actively incentivive selfish play?
As mentioned in my op, plenty of communication exists outside of headsets, just a matter of actually using it. A ping system would definitely help, but there is communication available
"I specifically ditched the Spine Chill/Sprintburst combo because everyone else would be on death hook and I wouldn't have been in a single chase."
And you didn't need anyone to tell you, on headset, what was happening.
"I once took three protection hits in one chase against a tunnelling nurse."
Again, without needing someone to tell you in a headset that they needed the assistance and were being tunneled.
And in both cases, the game did, in fact reward you with more BP. Each of the protection hits earned you some, and the extra interaction would have as well, so we have the game is actually rewarding teamwork.
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There's nothing wrong with selfish play.
I'll abandon people/let people die if I feel like it's in my best interest.
Sometimes I'll pop the gate and leave with 0 hooks if I suspect NOED (or it's confirmed), BW, etc.
Other times, I'll be a super star and carry the game....sometimes I'm the one getting carried.
The randomness and variety are what make solo queue great - Despite what you may see, there is a huge swathe of people that feel the same way.
If you want to dilute the randomness for a more consistent experience, there are a bunch of different avenues (even some official ones) where you can grab a few decent people and literally crush 3/4 of your games.
I'm personally more than content playing Solo/Killer with the limited information I get + lack of access to hidden information - My own decisions carry 100% weight and I really enjoy the autonomy in-game and surprise occurrences.
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Haha!!! I so agree!
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I've noticed this from both sides as well.
I have to tell you, as a killer that doesn't really kill survivors anymore its really frustrating when survivors will greed a generator instead of saving and letting their teammate die. I don't appreciate being forced to gain MMR, because normally it means the very next person I hook immediately gives up so I just straight up stop playing because I don't want the last 2 to give up too.
And as a survivor it feels like about 80% of the time other survivors kill me/get me killed more than the killer has anything to do with it. (The other 20% WoO carried me too hard and I get face camped, so I claim that.)
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I have been saying for years that most of the issues that make solo survivor terrible are caused by other survivors. They DC, they give up on hook, they farm their teammates, they crouch around and hatch camp, they go down 5 seconds into a chase and on and on. Sure the killer can camp and tunnel, but I have found that the former things I listed that survivors do happen much more often.
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