The logic behind a dh nerf
I see a lot of posts saying dead hard is OP but there’s not too much to back it up except ramblings of frustrated players, so let’s try to look at the situation from a logical standpoint. In my experience, DH is used in about 60%-70% of the survivors I go up against (I am not guessing, I actually did a sample size). With 8 exhaustion perks, this should be much much less. Hence why DH should be put on the level of other exhaustion perks to encourage perk diversity.
Another interesting point is Coup de Grace. This is essentially the killer dead hard, it increases the lunge range to get a hit where you normally would not be able to get a hit, where dead hard gives you a quick lunge to bait a killer into missing a hit they normally would be able to make; however, unlike the survivor dead hard, this is limited to a 5 time usage. I’m sure we could all agree that if this was a cool down perk, it would become almost as used as ruin undying in the meta. Killer to survivor balance, even if you wanted to argue that the killer should be on equal standing with the survivors, I’d still argue for the DH nerf due to Coup de Grace being so limited.
Comments
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My main problem is how dead hard validation has ######### over different powers. It makes Victor easily crushable and eats nemesis’ tentacles. That needs to be fixed ASAP
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In my opinion, the perk creates a crucial problem in the game where it encourages survivors to play extremely aggressive by giving them what is a low tier killer power, but a low tier power x4 is better than the vast majority of good killer powers.
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No doubt it’s a popular perk because it’s so effective.
What makes it potentially overpowered currently though is that it’s actually working correctly because of hit validation. Now survivors don’t need to predict when the killer will swing to avoid a hit, they can react to the swing animation and in principle avoid the hit every time. Baiting a survivor to Dead Hard early can fool a survivor who isn’t careful, but hypothetically a good enough survivor can avoid the hit every time. (And yeah, there’s supposedly people who cheat with an auto-Dead Hard now but that’s more of a tangent. It’s hypothetically possible to perfectly dodge now even without a cheat.)
My guess is because Dead Hard allowing for perfect dodges is a solid perk on its own, and the extra moment Dead Hard gives on top of that is also a nice effect, the combination is probably too powerful relative to other Endurance perks. If they reduced or eliminated the extra distance Dead Hard gives it would still I think be useful at this point solely because of the dodge, it just might not be so obviously better than the other perk choices.
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i believe the should nerf DH, one of two ways, remove the distance aspect of DH but keep I-frames, enabling someone to dodge a hit, but not get extra distance or remove the I-frames aspect of Dh, but keep the distance aspect of it.
Personally? I say get rid of the i-frame's aspect, there are too many issues with it, eating killer's powers, giving incorrect feedback, being frustrating for either side etc. the devs clearly cant make the perk function without it being frustrating for either side.
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DH is absolutely fine. It's just that people get frustrated (doesn't mean something should get nerfed) and then come to the forums to complain. I don't like seeing gen defense perks every game. Does that mean they should be nerfed? Nope.
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Every exhaustion perk gives distance. DH isn't a problem.
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oranges and apples. You cannot compare those two perks. What drives many killers away from Coup is more clunkiness than number or acquisition of tokens as you cannot use your normal lunge without consuming a token. If it had on-demand activation it would be a lot more popular, in a similar fashion as to why DH is so popular and Lithe/BL/Smash Hit are not, it's on-demand.
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Every other exhaustion perk requires a particular tile, or a limited resource. "being injured" is not a serious requirement as the only way to not have a survivor be injured is to one shot down them on their first hit and then have them die on the first hook.
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No, it isn't. I wouldn't really say it erases mistakes... People just purposely play a bit riskier when they use the perk. Other perks give distance as well. "Gross survivor/trolling posts"- LOL! This doesn't surprise me... I guess I'm a troll because I don't agree with all the "omg, poor killers! Nerf every survivor perk into the ground because killer is sooo weak!" posts/threads. Killer isn't as bad as you guys say. Sorry, but it's true. I actually do want a balanced game. Let's start with perks that actually need it, though. ;)
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You said Dead hard is fine and you're personally tired of seeing gen-regression perks every game. News flash, we would LOVE to use other perks. Nerf Dead hard, give killers more perk options and we'll stop using gen regression so fast your head will spin.
Hell, on this thread alone the comparison to coup de grace was made and it went right past you. Survivors have a stronger, more reliable, more frequent lunge. Killers get 1/4th the perk aggregate and they're less impactful.
Post edited by Rizzo on5 -
Dead hard is not meant to give you a free distance. The concept of this tragic perk is meant only to avoid a damage.
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That actually doesn't make me a troll. I do defend survivors a lot, but that's because of all the crazy things killers post here daily, lol. Anyways, I play killer as well. Things definitely need improving on both sides and I've said this a lot.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Oh, I know it was not meant to be used that way. I'm only saying it doesn't need a nerf.
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It needs to have a reduced movement speed
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There is nothing crazy about wanting DH nerfed, I see it in every single game on at least 3, if not all 4 survivors. That is an experience shared by a large portion of the population. BhVR has gone on the record about having a problem with seeing the same perks overused. In this case not only is it too strong, it's also so buggy that it screws over several killers even more than usual.
You don't play killer in any meaningful sense of the notion. Otherwise, you'd understand that DH is a problem. Hence, troll at best, bald-faced liar at worst.
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The I-Frames from Dead Hard are fine, what's not fine is the free distance it grants, unlike any other Exhaustion Perk
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I've stayed in red ranks as killer and I've been playing since 2017. I'm not a god killer, but I'm decent. I just don't have any problems with DH and I'm sure I'm not the only one. "Otherwise, you'd understand that DH is a problem. Hence, troll at best, bald-faced liar at worst."- This is exactly the kind of stuff that I'm talking about on here. 🙄
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Coup de grace should activate whenever you put a healthy survivor in the injured state by any means.
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Don't you think defending survivors only because of the things killers post is quite... odd? I mean, come on, both sides complain equally as much.
Dead Hard does need a nerf that addresses the issue with the perk itself. It extends chases in an unfair manner, and can also grant another health state.
You've told me that the devs know more than us, which is why you justified Wraith's nerf. So if the devs ever nerf Dead Hard while addressing the issue with the perk, would you agree with the devs?
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There is no supposed about the auto dead hard. There is a comprehensive cheat engine setup for dbd which is a massive detriment to actually having fun in the game currently. Nobody on either side likes dealing with those players.
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No, I don't think it's odd. I play both sides, so some of these nerfs would affect me as well. Of course, I'm going to give my opinion on it. I just think killers whine much more. I've also defended stuff on the killer side. Would I agree with the devs? I wouldn't like it, but I'd admit I was wrong. They have more data than we do. I can only say how I feel about the perk based on my games.
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When you write complete and utter nonsense like this:
And wonder why people have stopped taking you seriously, maybe it's time to stop saying that 2+2=5.
Also: Still don't believe you play killer, again, not in any real sense that shows you've thought critically, or played above a potato MMR while doing so, because every comment you makes reflects that.
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Honestly, that's a fantastic suggestions.
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You're some stranger on the internet. Do you think I care if you believe me? I don't lie. Anyways, I've already posted what I wanted. This will probably be my last post on this thread.
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Okay dude, enough with the us vs. them. Both sides are equal in terms of that. "Killers whine much more" isn't helping, this is a thread about talking about DH and other topics related to this thread, including Coup. You're allowed to give your opinion and argue against me, but the us vs. them is totally unnecessary.
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Wanting to be and appear genuine is a virtue, and I certainly hope it is :)
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I'm not trying to turn this into an us vs. them. I play both sides. I'm just saying what I see on these forums.
Post edited by IronKnight55 on0 -
My issue with DH is the validation behind it... Like someone here already said (Killer swings gets a hit but Survivor keeps on running and the Killer has to go through the hit animation... cleaning their weapon)
Also it should either be for distance or dodging... not both
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Sprint Burst doesn't. I'm also a little confused why people seem to overlook that perk in the 'undeserved distance' department. Isn't that way more frustrating to fight than DH?
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The animation is the missed attack animation, you don't get as much slowdown as the successful attack animation.
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Im my opinion dead hard is the most problematic perk in the game. I dont think there should be a perk that in a lot of situations gives you a free healthstate on command. Every other exhaustion perk in the game has a certain stipulations to using it (not sprinting till needed, dropping down, vaulting a window etc.) and there is certain skill and disadvantages to all of these perks. Dead hard doesnt have that, its active whenever you want wherever you want and can be used in ways where the killer can do absolutely nothing about it. The least they could is remove the invinsibility effect. Dead harding over traps, dodging hatchets etc. is ridiculous. I still think there should be a stipulation for using it like being in chase for 30 seconds but that might not be necessary after all.
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The animation I get is a successful hit... so I don't see the missed attack and I doubt other players see that as well
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There are two different hit animations, one is approximately 3 seconds and the other one is half of that. Validation may play the sounds of a survivor being hit but it will only play the shorter animation.
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SB has way more distance, but it is frontloaded. The large majority of the time you can identify a survivor with SB just by their refusal to run, @ them and make them sprint, and immediately go about your business. If you see them again within 60 seconds you know they won't have it and it's a non issue.
If SB could be saved and used whenever a survivor wanted, even if they were already running, then it would be in the same league as DH. In order for that to happen now, a survivor has to be very good at managing their exhaustion, and they're free to reap that payoff if they'd like, as it's considerably more effort than "Oh, I'm injured, I'll just use this whenever it's most convenient."
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Without much to back it up? Sir are you aware that a dead hard for distance is the definition of uncounterable against most of the killer roster. DH for its intended purpose is ######### because it's a gimmick but for distance it effectively acts as a 3rd health state.
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I'd argue that SB gets away with it because it has to be triggered at the start of the chase, meaning the killer can judge whether the chase is worth it given the disadvantage. The killer can also cut the survivor off if they've been caught in an unfortunate position. It's also an immediate guarantee no speed boost is coming mid-chase, barring Adrenaline.
DH can be triggered at will with a very meager requirement; can provide the same effective distance if used to gain distance into a window/pallet; is a damn-near guaranteed dodge; doesn't require exhaustion management; and pairs very nicely with Resilience, Iron Will, etc.
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Dead Hard doesn't need a nerf until they buff the rest of the other exhaustion perks to being worthwhile choices. Many exhaustion perks are very bad and only work in niche scenarios.
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Victor used to legit just ignore Dead Hard, so I’m fine with this flip.
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There is a lot to argue back and forth and a lot to take into consideration, but there is one metric, that over the years served quite well over all the different games and mechanics out there, if something is maybe a bit (or more) overtuned/OP/busted/in need of a tone down/whatever: pick rates!
If everything would be perfectly balanced, things would be pretty boring, but also most likely evenly distributed. That's why in most online games we got something that we call meta: over the time certain elements of the game mechanic and options open to players turn out to be either mathematically, mechanically or qol wise better then others, leading to them being picked with a higher probability.
A certain amount of over-picking isn't any issue, some people will be meta slaves, others will try new things or forge their own way.
But sometimes certain picks are so overtly better then others that they become auto-includes, no-brainers and become vast runaways over everything else in their weight class.
This is something that I think we are experiencing with DH, and to a lower extent with BT. If you take any random, experienced survivor, the chances that they have DH/BT/DS/IW equipped, in this exact combination, is pretty high. From my experience this is the most meta general survivor build. You can always swap one or the other out, go for a personal preference perk, but this is the meta to which everything else is measured.
One of the biggest assets to survivors are exhaustion perks, which offer a big movement advantage, before going on a cool down. And while Lith, Balanced Landing or Sprint Burst all have their fans and users, their pickrate is way, way, way below that of DH. I think this stems from the fact that DH neither has a very restricting activation component (no vaulting a window, slamming a pallet or jumping down something), but also offers something that the others don't: invincibility frames. This is huge and makes the perk extremely versatile and powerful, to the point were you have a somewhat three times higher chance to see it then any other exhaustion perk.
So, normally when something is over picked that much, its a clear indicator that its too mechanically/mathematically strong, compared to the other options and survivors might even feel that they are hurting themselves and their chances of success, by not picking it. I don't know how to curb it down, I have some ideas, but I am no game designer, but I feel that something sjould be done.
Mind you, I am a big opponent of "nerfing something into the ground", as nothing hurts a gamers or nerds soul more then to see their favorite toy destroyed. And the other exhaustion perks DO see use, just vastly less usage then DH. You will never get a perfectly even distribution over all options, and neither should you aim at that, it's totally ok to have some outliers and meta leading options, but again, if something is that much over picked, its usually too strong and the community got wind of it.
BT, for example, is nearly identical in pick rate, but this stems not only from its power, but because it helps to protect against one of the most hated tactics in dbd, ie tunneling. Tunneling is effective, but a straight down when you get unhooked feels super duper aweful, because you can do nothing about it. I recon if BTs main effect became base line, for example, we would see much more variation in builds, whereas if every other exhaustion perks got invincibility frames, it would change nearly nothing, because of DH singular ease of on demand use.
I'll end my book now here, as I'm not sure if anyone will even read this :)
Haply gaming everyone. Please enjoy your holidays. Luv.
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I think Dead Hard wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't for 2 things:
One, as some people pointed out, it's the validation eating killer powers.
The other, well, is map balance.
Seriously, Dead Hard wouldn't be that big of a deal if many loops weren't as safe. There are many loops in the game you can't mindgame and are just forced to break the pallet unless the survivor makes a really stupid mistake, and there are some maps full of safe loops, some of them even chained (Cowshed...), others with window loops so strong they remind me of infinites (Groaning Storehouse, Haddonfield). On some of these maps, you take a long time after you catch up to a survivor after lots of holding W and running really safe loops, and when you are finally about to down them... they Dead Hard over a pallet, which just can't be countered, and now you will lose some extra time trying to down them in more loops that are safe.
Seriously, balancing the maps would fix or at least lessen many issues this game has, but I don't see that happening. This year map balance only got worse (Cowshed and The Game were reworked this year, by the way. One got even worse than it was before and the other is now a carpenter simulator full of god-pallets).
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I'd say SB can extend chases much longer when used correctly. It can save you from even being injured and you can most likely make it to a safe area before the killer can get a hit. DH requires you to be injured and it's pretty easy to mess up. Even good survivors can mess it up. I believe it's fine.
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I agree with all of your points but I think Dead Hard is significantly easier to manage and worry about without any actual changes to your playstyle. As another user said 99% of SB users will use it at the front so there's no sunken cost of "well crap, I already chased this survivor for 15 seconds and they just dead harded for distance to a pallet do I just eat the 15 seconds as a loss or continue to chase?"
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Bruh people have been saying the perk was OP for years with good reason and that was before hit validation when it could only reliably be used for distance. There is a reason it's seen in pretty much every single game and its not because its just a fairly strong perk
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Many people agree Sprint Burst is better than Dead Hard but why 3~4 Dead Hard is more common than 3~4 Sprint Burst?
Hmm.
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Coup isnt the killer's Dead Hard. Lunging is the Killer's Dead Hard. Coup is the Killer's Dead Hard on steroids.
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Dude you have too many last posts. The truth is survivor can't run if they want to use SB in correct time, and it would waste lots of time. DH is the most convenient ex perk with most powerful ability. I doubt people who claim DH is fine or good survivor can mess up blah blah blah use their legs to play the game, oh and without brain. Please use brain to play, or you can watch high MMR clips to learn.....with brain.
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And again I see the one that take the longest... The one you get when you land a successful attack
There ain't 2 ways about this the Devs messed up
I see the blood cleaning animation...
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SB is earned, but DH isn't? Weird. lol
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but k...
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Just because some people say it's OP doesn't make it true. It's a balanced perk.
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