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In defense of the Lightborn argument
Flashlights are arguably the weakest item in the game, blinding is one of the very few things they are capable of doing, and flashlight saves are one of the few things that blinding is actually good for. So it's understandable that having the weakest item in the game being completely useless is like rubbing salt in a wound. There are no perks that even come close to doing similar things to medkits or toolboxes. The best you have is broken status effect for medkits and incapacitated for toolboxes, both which last quite a short amount of time.
Lightborn is by no means an OP perk, it's rarely worth a perk slot unless there are more than 2 flashlights in the game, but it fully removes the use of flashlights and event items(that are 1 time use, and thus an entire waste whenever lightborn is used).
So instead here is my suggestion:
- Bring Lightborn back to its old state of being harder to blind, but not impossible, making flashlight saves still mechanically possible, just harder to time.
- Remove all other blinding effects instead and turn it's duration into aura reading instead.
This would at first seem like current Lightborn being nerfed for the sake of flashlight saves, but there is one major difference: Survivors think you're actually blinded, meaning you can actually use the perk to a benefit. You could fake the quick attack and have survivors think you caught them by sound alone, never expecting you to actually lunge when they blind you later on. You could actually stalk as a Myers or Ghostface and pretend to be blinded instead, without survivors realizing you can. It would reduce any blindness related tech to smithereens(people dont ever use those techs when you have the current lightborn since you're never blinded from their POV)
It would overall have more utility than just being a hardcounter to flashlight saves, without actually fully screwing over 2 entire sets of items that are already quite weak and easy to avoid in general(flashlights and event crackers).
Comments
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Can we stop?
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No
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I'm hearing yes.
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There isn't a Lightborn argument.
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Yes, there is: completely blocking the use of single use, event-only items. That alone is a very solid argument.
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Flashlight saves are Killer points denial and very frustrating if the person saved took a while to down. I understand why someone would like that aspect removed from their games. The original thread was a killer saying he should not be shamed for using this perk. The counterpoint is they are easy to avoid and the perk slot is more valuable for other things. Both these things are correct. Use whatever perks you like.
As far as changing the perk I am all for it as long as it makes game sense.
Denial of an item is frustrating but also part of the randomness of DBD. It will certainly not happen as often as a killer encountering COH.
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Please can we because all I read from OPs post is the same old nerf making a moderately above average perk completely useless....but that's what survivors want right....all killer perks completely useless while get theirs buffed.....or am I just being silly.
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Nah, its still better than old Lightborn, it just doesnt fully negate the weakest survivor item anymore. Let alone that it actually would bait survivors into trying the pallet blind tech, or that it would still counter a cj tech(which they wouldnt try once they know you have the current lightborn). It would be a time-waster for survivors while being a very deceiving perk by giving false information that killers can use in their benefit.
Right now? If you have it, survivors dont try to go for saves unless its under a pallet, so they just sit on gens instead. Current lightborn is actually more of a detriment to killers while also being an insult to flashlights. All I tried to do is give it more utility and deception without it being an insult to flashlights. Killers are lacking deceptive perks.(seriously, calling lightborn above average is laughable, its weak. Under average, has no real utility other than preventing blinds)
Note: not a survivor main, actually a killer main who only plays survivor with friends.
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I am amused by the point that survivors will just sit on gens if you use Lightborn as if they don't already do that.
I would be open to removing the aura reading altogether and removing immunity from blast mines, but also removing the tell from the flashlight beam.
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Your not immune from blast mines, just the blind the killer still gets stunned.
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Because they dont sit on gens if they are nearby for a flashlight save, plenty of survivors who will run close just for the chance of a flashlight save, wasting time only once and then never trying it again. Let alone the amount of time good survivors will walk into you after blinding you, or survivors who use quick and quiet into a locker after blinding you that get away with it. So instead, you have survivors who never try things that would be normally be beneficial to them when they blind a killer since Lightborn is in the game and anything blind related is fully ignored.
Lightborn currently saves you time once. That's not worth the perk slot, let alone that it doesnt really help killers. Make it more deceptive and it would have a net-gain for killers. People really dont see the value in misinformation these days anymore. As a survivor, Diversion and Deception tend to buy me quite a lot of time just because of misinformation. Killers dont really have any perks that give misinformation. Dark Devotion, Distressing and Monitor and Abuse are really the only perks in the game that give misinformation. One of them being quite bad at it too. The rest of the perks simply takes information away.
Let alone that these misinformation perks arent even that great for misinforming, since you do not know who recieves the misinformation. Having a perk that lets you know who exactly has the wrong information and use that misinformation against them is quite beneficial.
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He meant flashbangs etc.
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Plenty of teams are sabo squads these days and will be right nearby when someone is downed trying to sabo or body block. That is why I have become fond of Starstruck, Iron Grasp, Agitation. I am not advocating for Lightborn as much as I am saying there is no shame in using it.
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If the Survivors want to bring Flashlights then Killers can being Lightborn
End of discussion
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Let me take you back to 2016 to give an example from killer POV that is quite comparable here:
You could sabotage Trapper traps in 2016 and fully remove Trapper's ability from the game. Trapper was already the weakest killer at the time, so anyone with Saboteur or a Toolbox would remove his ability. It was just an insult to injury. The weakest killer being nerfed even harder by a survivor perk.
I wouldnt say shame on people using it, just that the design of the perk is an insult.
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I remember. I also remember trapping under the feet. I agree with you that all perks should get a QOL and game health pass.
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Oh, so Trapper's change in patch 3.6.0 can be reverted then? Where sabotaging traps was removed from the game? Or heck, even revert the changes from patch 2.1.0, where Trapper's traps respawned after 3 minutes if sabotaged instead of being fully removed from the game.
Yknow, if Trappers want to place traps, then survivors can destroy them permanently, end of discussion. Right? Or do we now have a double standard?
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You sound very passionate about flashlights being removed from matches for someone who says they are a killer main.
You sound like an SWF main.
Have you encountered lightborn recently?
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Perks AND killers. People tend to jump to the conclusion that I am a survivor for pointing out something I consider busted or simply insulting(heck, you should see the amount of hate just for saying Pinky Finger needs a nerf).
Personally, I am still of the opinion that killers could do with Fire Up as a basekit mechanic where Fire Up itself simply recieves a rework. I think that would be an extremely healthy step while also being very lore friendly, as the Entity simply enrages and thus empowers the killer more when survivors get closer and closer to escaping. It would give killers more vanilla mechanics to make late-game chases faster and actually punishes survivors for keeping pallets up later in the game.
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Nope, just pointing out the double standard people have here. 2k hours in killer, 1k hours in survivor. Havent encountered lightborn pretty much ever, only used it once since it's change.
I am passionate about the game in general. That means both sides. I will defend fair mechanics and accuse insulting mechanics equally.
Seriously, what is it with people and not understanding double standards in this game. I have in general defended killer mechanics more than survivor mechanics. Equally as passionate.
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Just… no. Being immune to blind is perfectly fine, it’s not even that strong an effect. Hell, the perk actually could maybe use the buff of not making it obvious you aren’t blinded.
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I agree that the effect isnt strong, it's the design around it that's straight up insulting since flashlights are already super weak.
Like, unless Flashlights, Flashbangs and Event Crackers get an insane buff where it ALWAYS disables the killer's ability rather than just Hag, Wraith, Myers, Ghostface and Artist. Giving it a secondary use essentially, Lightborn is a bit too much of an insult(let alone that it doesnt even activate one of Billy's addons. It's like OoO and Sole Survivor no longer working together, those are both also just an insult in design).
And you can see why making flashlights an offensive item against killer abilities in general is not exactly a healthy change.
It's not about Lightborn being strong, its about flashlights being weak already.
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What if the perk worked against everything except flashlights but drained their batteries faster?
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Sounds to me like you’re arguing flashlights need a buff, not that Lightborn needs to be changed.
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If I were to rework the perk, I'd reduce the effects of flashlight globally(aka map-wide).
- Harder(and thus longer) to blind.
- Longer to lighthburn Wraith.
- Longer to disarm Hags traps.
- Longer to lightburn Nurse.
- Longer to disarm Artists Crows
- Draining batteries faster when used nearby the killer(would stack with Overwhelming Presence).
Maybe even increasing all sounds nearby while blinded as a secondary effect.
I think that would be quite a useful change if I were to ignore the aura reading effect(which I personally do like)
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It's a power the Devs even said as much.... Which is why that changed
Those are vary different things...Lightborn is a perk, Trapper's Traps are a power, A Flashlight is an Item
Why bring up an extreme situation?
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Because items are essentially survivor powers. They are all M2 abilities.
Saboteur was a perk to Trapper's m2 ability.
Lightborn is a perk to a survivor's m2 ability.
It's not an extreme. It's an exaggeration, sure, since killers rely on abilities to get around the fact that survivors have more perks and multiple items. But that doesnt mean there isnt a double standard here. The comparison is simply "why hardcounter an already weak mechanic?".
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Except that the buff is unhealthy to the game. Imagine a survivor with a flashlight gobbling up Clown's clouds from afar. A survivor with a flashlight disarming Trapper traps from afar. A survivor stopping a running Hillbilly in his tracks or preventing him from revving in general with a flashlight. A survivor pulling Myers out of T3 with a flashlight. Blight being unable to dash further. Demo's portals gone in the blink of an eye. Plague either getting pulled out of her Corrupt Purge or survivors being able to remove infection with flashlights. Survivors waking each other up from the Dreamworld by flashing each other. Victor being slowed down/unable to jump when survivors aim a flashlight at him. Cenobite being unable to teleport to the box/unable to activate the box for a chainhunt if he's being lit by a flashlight. Or at least similar things to this that make it worth running a flashlight against essentially any killer.
Would you think that's a healthy buff? Because that's pretty much the only way you could buff flashlights to make them useful when Lightborn is in the game. I dont think that's a healthy buff.
Changing Lightborn would be the more healthy option.
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And so are Toolboxes, Medkits and Keys... what's your point
Those are still totally different things and you know it... It's not like Trapper can take a hatchet from the locker or pick up Billy's chainsaw
Why are you so against Lightborn being a thing in this game?
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Oh here we go again. Perks should counter stuff your enemy does that the whole fkn point. Flashlights are strong enough like they are right now they can rescue a survivor and they can counter certain powers and that's fine. You say it's not OK that your flashlight is completely useless I say it's not OK that picking a hard earned down up is useless if I get blinded and don't even start with that you just need to look at a wall stuff I got blindet trough solid walls. But the best thing about your post is that you follow the cliche. Saying your are a killer main but wanting a completely unnecessary nerf for killers and even trying to defend it caus it would be better caus survs would stop sitting on gens to try saves and that might be true but if I want them to do that I just don't run lightborn.
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Why the ######### does anyone care about lightborn, it's a bad perk but if you like it go ahead. And if you don't like going against it use a different item or wait till next game it's not like it's a popular perk.
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It is not even close to a double standard.
We are comparing Lightborn (Perk) to Flashlights (Survivor Item).
and then you bring in Sabotage (Survivor Item OR Perk) to a core Killer ability.
That is not the same thing. That is not even remotely CLOSE to the same thing. You cannot compare a Survivor item to a core Killer ability. The two things are not equatable AT ALL.
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Enough already
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Worst post ever. Congrats.
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When you think this community can't sink any lower, I always get amazed that it can be done.
Now you insult a survivor by just running a perk? Unbelievable.
How about when a survivor runs you for 2,5 gen, you down them in the middle of nowhere so no "just look to a wall", and you get blinded and you drop the survivor, resetting all your work. Isn't that insulting as well? Or is that different because you are a killer and you must make sure you make the game is fun for survivors?
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Flashbangs? This way Lightborn would be literally useless.
It's good how it is, the only change I would add is the beam still getting thinner even without actually getting the blind.
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Stop the Lightborn hate, it's a mediocre Perk that barely does anything other than forcing the Survivors to play less aggressive
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Flashlights are high risk, high reward items. Basically the reward for a successful flashlight save is high, it could potentially mean one less hook that game or even one less kill. A flashlight save could lose a killer upwards of 30-45 seconds by forcing them to redown someone they already downed assuming they immediately restart the chase after the stun. It’s risky though because the save is tricky to pull off and requires the survivor to be off the gens ready to do it, taking time away from the total gen progress.
I don’t necessarily know that flashlights need a buff, it all depends on if the average time spent getting a save times the average chance of a save landing is roughly what the survivors gain in terms of time lost for the killer. If you look at it as the survivor gaining back a health state then it’s maybe weaker than a medkit, but then again the flashlight does have ancillary side benefits too like removing Hag’s traps and stunning Wraith and Nurse and removing Artist’s crows. (And pallet blinds are free bloodpoints although I don’t like balancing things out with those.)
But even if flashlights could use a buff, there’s more than one way to do it besides lengthening the duration of the blind. You could for instance give the flashlight a side effect like if you shine a flashlight other survivors in range see your aura. Or that if you shine a flashlight you can see auras of various props in range. Plus buffing the flashlight in that way would mean Lightborn making the killer immune to blinds wouldn’t entirely remove the flashlight’s other benefits.
So no, I disagree that Lightborn needs to be changed just because you think flashlights are weak. If flashlights are actually underpowered then you could buff them in different ways, some of which aren’t even impacted by Lightborn which is generally already considered underpowered itself.
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Flashlight might be the weakest item overal but they have the biggest gameswinging effect.
Toolboxes give you a bit of time and allow you to trade a healthstate to maybe release a survivor from a killers grasp in very specific circumstances.
Medkits allow you to efficiently gain back a single healthstate the killer did.
Flashlights can completly remove an entire chase sequence from the killer. a single good use of a flashlight can completly turn a game around in a way that a single toolbox and medkit rarely do.
They are the weakest survivor item cause they are not concistant, not because they aren't powerfull.
Spending a perkslot to remove that posibility is 100% fine.
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Well if you think that all survivor mains want killer perks to be useless, because they all have the same opinions for whatever reason, then I would argue you are being a bit more than just silly.
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Cause survivors want to ######### with flashlights , flashbangs and so on and Lightbourne negates that
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People like drama and useless conversations. Dbd community in a nutshell.
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What happened? You can't bully killers with 4 flashlights swf?
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Lol. This is not the point, the point is that lightborn is a bad perk and you get punished for it.
And you don't need flashlights to bully killers if you don't know.
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I do know. But I think 4 swf with flashlights are the most bothered by this perk.
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I've seen way more people mad that people want lightborn nerfed then survivors who are actually mad about it and an even larger group wondering why the ######### this is a topic all of a sudden
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Yes because it's an argument that shouldn't exist. Lightborne is a situational perk and becomes useless if no one is using those items yet of course because everything revolves around survivor fun and they wanna ######### with those items that's why the argument started to my understanding.
IMO the argument shouldn't exist and the fact that it is one is a complete joke.
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Yet, there are no perks that come even close to making those items useless. Lightborn does. So what's your point even bringing up medkits etc when it supports my point?
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Wrong, there are no perks that counter a camping bubba in any way, shape or form. There are no perks that prevent a killer from breaking pallets. There are no perks that straight up disable a killers power for any significant amount of time.
Nor are there perks that block medkits, block toolboxes, block keys. There is only 1 perk that still fully blocks the usage of an m2 slot, and that is lightborn.
There is a thing between countering, and HARD countering. Lightborn is a hard counter to something that doesnt need one.
And no, flashlights are very weak. Literally the weakest item in the game.
And it IS okay to pick up a "hard earned down" and get blinded, because that isnt your only option. You can slug, you can chase people away, you can bait, you can do literally a million other things while having that down benefit your progress. With a flashlight?
"Saying your are a killer main but wanting a completely unnecessary nerf for killers and even trying to defend it caus it would be better caus survs would stop sitting on gens to try saves and that might be true but if I want them to do that I just don't run lightborn."
And here is you following the entitled killer main cliche, thinking that nerfs are unnecessary because its not strong. But if you go with that logic: why buff anything that doesnt need a buff? Bubba recieved a massive buff without removing his guaranteed kill on camping, while Twins and Artist were both blocked from using their abilities nearby hooked survivors for that exact reason. Why buff Bubba's camping power when it wasnt needed? Or why nerf the strength of the game room in Dead Dawg Saloon when it was already a killer sided map? Both unnecessary in terms of balance, but were still added in the game. The reason was because of improved gameplay.
It's not about nerfing the perk for it's power, it's about not removing gamemechanics. It's literally the Iron Will complaint that killers have since the Stridor and Iron Will change. Except that even without Iron Will, you still have footsteps, blood and scratchmarks. You still have usable tracking. Where with flashlights, the only somewhat useful mechanic is changing the angle of momentum for Dead Hard. That's it. If you dont run Dead Hard, its useless.
So in this scenario, either flashlights+flashbangs/firecrackers/wintercrackers are too weak and need a buff, or lightborn is too strong of an affect against a core mechanic specifically. There are no other conclusions you can draw. Since I'd also argue that those items dont need a buff, the clear conclusion is Lightborn being the issue here.
It's not about power, it's not about strength, it's about poor gamedesign choices that were made. The only reason it's not been changed yet, is most likely since it's very rarely used.
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Except, they are. That's how the devs envisioned it from the start. Survivors dont have different abilities/passives, but instead have access to items that they all could use. The comparison is basically making all the killers the same, but every killer being able to equip the power of another.
Flashlights are a core ability of survivors. Thats a fact. This alone makes them comparable. Saying items dont matter is like saying killer abilities dont matter. They might have a very different position of power in the game, but they are part of the same catagory.
If Lightborn instead made survivors unable to use toolboxes on gens and hooks, this argument would have been started much earlier since killers would consistently use it. Let alone that you and I both know that devs would have instantly reverted this change since it would affect a core survivor mechanic.
So why is the logic suddenly so twisted because its a flashlight? Lightborn is weak because flashlights are weak. But it's literally like using Saboteur against Trapper.
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