Are Killers Actually Punished for Camping
Comments
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Added 10 more games as promised. Not sure how much more of this I can take. I'm definitely running into a lot of survivors that should be kicking my butt. Amazing Dead-Head into Borrowed-Timed saves. Amazing flashlight saves. Lots of teams just pushing generators.
What is especially amazing is how many survivors don't actually commit suicide when a Bubba facecamps. Props off to them.
I'm up to 85% kill ratio and 3.4 kills on average a match (Which is a slight improvement to what I began as which was 82.5% and 3.2 kills on average). Amazingly enough, I'm progressing in my Grades. It's kind of funny seeing a Bronze IV Bubba going against Red 1 survivors. I'm counting hatch escapes as escapes now instead of as kills, even though I've only had 2 so far. Anyway, here you go, more data.
I think if you tie my data in with @KayTwoAyy data, that he has on face-camping Bubba, you start getting an idea that Facecamping is rewarding the Killer not punishing them, in the least.
I'll try and do a couple more nights if I can take it.
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Well lucky for you, face camping was removed with the introduction of swivel hooks. Problem solved!
Oh and on regard on the "survivors would waste to much time" thingy. Right now survivors HAVE to waste time in order to get a decent match for everyone. If survivors play as efficient as possible, then the match ends in less than 5 minutes and survivors escape with 11k bloodpoints.
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I´ll try to stop camping for kills. Especially since i´m obviously the survivor on those screenshots.
Apparently your mmr is low enough to have killers get more hooks per gen. If you want any tipps on how to escape and raise your mmr, just message me in a new thread about getting better.
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The issue is, that they can´t "fix" this without making survivors lives extremely easier/killers lives extremely harder.
Old BT also protected the unhooking survivor, which made hook bombing something completely risk free. Punishing every killer along the way. Not just the campers.
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I'm conflicted about this thread, as much as I love data and actual numbers behind the opinions we see every day here, I don't know if this is helping the cause at all. Whether it is for a good or a bad cause you are intentionally ruining the experience to at least 10 survivors per day.
Feelings aside, the other thing that's a little worrying is that if the numbers keep showing that face camping is actually efficient, we get more people salty about it every day, we pile up complaints, yeah I don't know how this helps bubba. I'd rather focus on a rework on his mechanics so that IF his face camping ever gets nerfed, he still stands a chance in the low & mid MMRs.
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I'm a casual I main killer got 355 hours 100+ on xbox and ps5 if a team pops 3 gens before my first hook i camp for that sweet 1 kill and take that L. If a team pops 2 gens and rescue, there teammate within 10sec of me hooking him i tunnel and camp for that sweet 1 kill cuz that game is an L as well. Big maps are face camp on sight small maps are go but wile wack survivors on sight if the put boon totems up is face camp time. DO I WANT TO CAMP NO I DONT IS CAMPING FUN NO BUT IT BETTER THEN NO KILLS
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Nemesis Camp Test
KILL RATE: 100% | AvG KIlls: 3.6 | HATCH ESCAPES: 4 | AVG Gens: 2.4 | Total D/c's: 2 | AvG Trial Time: 9 minutes 6 Seconds
Just wrapped up playing 10 games as Nemesis, who I've been saying for some time is one of the best campers in the game. His zombies are able to pressure gens while you proxy hook, and if Ruin is active (as it was through-out most of 6 games in this test) they will even help regress gen progress for you.
I finished this experiment with a 100% kill rate--up 21.5% from my camp test with Bubba.
According to lead game designer, Patrick, hatch escapes count as a null; therefore, kill rate is treated as if the hatch escapee never even existed in the trial. @Munqaxus I would advise adjusting your numbers to recognize that hatch escapes are a null, rather than an escape--because the game does not recognize it as an escape. So while this should negatively effect your average kills per trial, your kill rate is completely unchanged.
I would dare to say d/c's should be negated from average kills for this same reason, but the numbers might become very misleading if we go down that path--especially if the d/c happens on the hook.
Who was most effective at applying pressure?
Survivors who worked on generators, then coordinated an unhook right before second stage were most effective at challenging me. Unhooking the survivor before they reached stage two bought survivors valuable seconds, and allowed them to extend the game beyond the 10 minute mark.
While Bubba handled unsafe unhooks like a champ, M1 killers are at the mercy of hook trading and hook grab standoffs.
I haven't been keeping track of how many times I hook survivors in these experiments, but I can say with certainty that the number of hooks per trial went up with Nemesis. I wasn't able to prevent unsafe unhooks, so ultimately I needed to hook survivors multiple times--an issue I did not have with Bubba.
Which perk offered the least value?
No Way Out went from incredibly valuable on Bubba to virtually useless.
No Way Out is still an effective perk, but seeing as survivors never finished 5 gens in my 10 trials I had zero need for the perk in the first place.
Ruin's value surprised me, and it was sorely missed when survivors broke Ruin before my first hook. For that reason, I would consider replacing No Way Out with Undying (or possibly even Haunted Ground).
If not Undying, I would consider bringing Save the Best for Last to help against hook trading.
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Your numbers are still useless because you're withholding or not recording information (enemy perks; grades--as irrelevant as they are, we could probably draw conclusions throughout a month on those; queue times; your grades; actual gameplay footage). This pseudo-scientific approach where you're setting out to prove a point and choosing what information you record is inherently aggravating. It's no better than anecdotes!
Ideally, if we want to be scientific, we need multiple players as some sort of vaguely representative sample, not self-selecting and with variable perk loadouts, who record their entire gameplay from start to finish (not necessarily at HD, but hopefully enough perks can be identified) and discarded if there's any cuts. Then we can actually use proper analysis rather than just "look at the trends in the numbers I've written down". Not-science masquerading as science is simply distasteful.
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There's definitely a false and sometimes likely deliberately false narrative regarding camping and its effectiveness. Camping is a staple strategy even in tournament play where some of the very best players and more importantly some of the absolute most coordinated teams of survivors face off. In public play with its groups of random survivors that much more often than not are not particularly good or smart at the game (to say the least) or at all coordinated, camping is a devastatingly effective strategy.
In tournaments survivors all communicate via voice chat at all times, and they are also players with tons of experience and skills and coordination, worlds above 99% of pub groups, and yet securing struggle stage or death on hook by camping are still immensely impactful. Contesting hooks is very risky even in that environment, and there are smart ways of camping that make it difficult even for these teams to get meaningful gen progress on the board, with killers controlling gen clusters and entire areas around hooks. If a survivor goes down in the vicinity of a gen or let alone multiple gens with progress on them, that can be such a huge setback that even these tournament teams not seldomly cannot recover well or at all.
In pubs even the most primitive ways of camping like Bubba facecamping work out much more often than not, with survivors literally playing into them by wasting time staring at the hook or throwing themselves at the killer, often even seconds after the hooked person went into struggle stage, then also not at all always having perks like BT and DS or otherwise managing to protect the unhooked survivor. Camping is a pretty sure-fire way to kill most survivors in pubs.
Of course, a lot of it comes down to player skills and smarts (and perk choices), but random teams without voice chat or any coordination often simply cannot deal with these scenarios well even if they are solid and smart players individually (and these are things that should be balanced at a base-game level, not with perks that players may not and in fact often just do not equip). Without communication, survivors first have to each check and identify whether a camp is even happening, which costs a lot of time. Then it's not like it's always obvious whether the killer is camping, a proxi and patrol camp can lure survivors in and keep them occupied around the hook. But even in cases where a camp is obvious, many survivors will stick around to wait and see whether a window for a rescue opportunity won't open up or whether other survivors won't arrive to try and contest the hook together with. This is especially true because players usually feel bad about letting someone else die on hook, and about having run there without even trying. But even if they do end up not trying and instantly go back to gens, a lot of time was lost, time in which the hook timer ticked down and little to no gen progress was made, and this is ignoring that survivors might still have to search for gens to begin with, that perks like Corrupt, Deadlock, Ruin might very well have made that time even more costly. Then there's the fact that killers can regularly contest gens and survivors while still keeping a level of control over the hook at the same time, depending on the killer and how close the gens are. And the fact that players that are getting camped and seeing that nobody is going to save them will not seldomly attempt on hook and even let go. And of course, if survivors do try to contest the hook, there's a myriad of scenarios that can happen that can quickly lead to rounds falling apart for survivors, with killers injuring and/or downing/grabbing multiple people, and often still being able to secure struggle/death on hook and/or simply tunnelling if they do manage to get the survivor off the hook.
Camping is objectively one of the top most effective killing strategies in this game, it works at the top levels of skill and coordination and it demolishes most random groups. This has to first be acknowledged before one can reasonably discuss the balancing of camping.
I for one don't think camping is a bad gameplay aspect through-and-through that should be sought to be completely removed. Camping has its merits, there is some skill and advanced decision-making involved in it on both sides, it adds a significant layer of strategy of its own to the game, it can even be fun and thrilling to play for and against camps, and the mere fact that camping can create dangerous, crazy situations that can spiral rounds out of control at practically any moment means it makes the game more exciting and tense and creates more diverse game states and therefore experiences, round-to-round.
But there are definitely problematic and undesirable aspects to camping gameplay remedying which I do think would only benefit the game. One should not be forced to "12-hook" every game, that would get samey and boring, but encouraging chase-heavier, more dynamic matches with more hooks happening and everyone getting some action is definitely something that would be good for the game, and that would have to go in hand with buffs for killers in gameplay aspects such as chase strength and gen control, but nerfs to their strength in defending hooks. There are many suggestions for such changes I and others have made throughout the years. It can be extreme stuff like removing hook timers completely, or more moderate like removing hook grabs, basekit Kindred, and such. Compensatory killer buffs could be decreasing gen speeds while in chase, increasing base gen regression rate, changes to movement speeds, vaulting speeds, pallet-breaking speeds, and so on. There is definitely a balance to be found in making camping less effective without taking it out of the game altogether and without hurting killers' overall chances to succeed, and I agree with other people that this would also ideally revolve around strong incentives for not camping, rather than strong punishments for camping.
Leatherface camping specifically is absolutely a problem, and it's a ridiculous state he's been in ever since release. I hope MMR will have highlighted this issue for BHVR too. He's basically the personification of how effective even the most primitive and easy forms of camping are, and it likely shows by how disproportionally common he has become in higher MMR brackets. But I think general changes to camping might already be enough such that there won't necessarily have to be specific adjustments for LF.
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How you are setting this up and presenting it is what we call confirmation bias, you are seeking to confirm and support your hypothesis rather than collecting objective data. The data you are producing does not actually correlate to the topic that you are presenting.
Simply playing only Bubba, who everyone knows is the king of camping and claiming any data gathered on him can be used to state all killers are rewarded is a false narrative; as no other killer can actually do it at the same efficiency level. A scientific approach would need far more data points, identical builds on each killer in order to even come close to a determination of the statement claimed in your subject line.
If you are truly willing to showcase that face camping is to easy and rewarded, maybe pick a killer that is not by default good at it? That is something I personally would actually find interesting to read.
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I agree this is in no way a scientific study, I'm not going to cure cancer with this data, lol. However, I think this data is important because currently, the commonly held belief is that facecamping does not reward the killer and we can see from this data that it actually greatly rewards the killer. I did choose a killer who is famous for facecamping but if you look at @KayTwoAyy data a couple of posts above this one, you will see he was able to produce the same results with a Killer not-known for camping, with a 100% kill rate in the 10 games he played.
However, there is a reason I'm sticking with the same killer. It's because to get more accurate data, I have to get a lot of data points using the same setup. And for that, I have to play the same killer. I don't want to screw up my MMR on the killers I like to play, so I picked a Killer I'm not really fond of playing and haven't played in a long time.
I guess I should mention that I always play with 2 brown add ons, Vegetable Oil and Spark Plug. I also only use bloodpoint offerings.
I think the take-away here is that there is absolutely no data on facecamping up until now. Now players can see actual data on facecamping. I would be more than happy if other players tried the same thing with other killers, like @KayTwoAyy is doing, because there's just no way I can do 50ish games with each killer, facecamping the entire time. It's just too much for anyone to do.
I think @KayTwoAyy data with Nemesis is actually more telling than mine with Leatherface, since he's able to pull out a 100% win rate, facecamping with basically a M1 Killer and no way to stop unsafe saves.
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Proof that survivors care more about fun in this game than killers do in all honesty, some survivors are willing to throw an entire game so one person doesn't spend theirs on a hook.
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That must be it!
/s
Wonder if anyone will take your Us vs Them bait.
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Not a lot of bloodpoints - It's the killers choice
Camping is boring - again, it's the killers choice
These 'counter points' are absolutely hilarious.
and as for your paragraph...
Yes, sure, survivors "rush gens" but they HAVE to actively move to another gen to win, survivors can't stay on the same gen the entire game and earn anything from it, a killer can camp a survivors until they're dead and then they've won against that survivor, the dead survivors does not matter anymore to the rest of the game, and the other 3 escaping isn't suddenly a win for that dead survivor because they got camped.
Post edited by Seanzu on3 -
You are ignoring that facecamping itself does not reward the Killer, the skill of the Survivors does.
Seriously. I don't get this BS narrative that facecamping somehow magically gives the Killer more kills, as if it forces Survivors onto hooks. The numbers don't lie:
Facecamping for 2 hook states takes 120 seconds. Add onto that around 50 seconds for a chase (Not counting insta-down Killers), probably more, but this gives us a round number. That's 3 minutes.
In 3 minutes; 3 Survivors soloing gens can pop all 3, with 100 seconds left over. IE: 1 minute, 40 Seconds left over. That means the Survivor on the hook is not even dead yet.
That's also enough time to find and complete THREE MORE GENS solo, each. But since you only need 2 more; you will have Survivors group up on one, lowering it from 80 seconds to 47 seconds. Meaning that, unless it took you 60 seconds to FIND the gen, you are completing it before the Survivor dies.
That's, at minimum, without skillchecks or toolkits, 4 gens done in 1 chase.
But sure 'Facecamping rewards (magically) the Killer'.
And you're going to stick with a Killer that ignores the chases and is great at facecamping in order to prove that facecamping is OP?
That just shows your method is flawed and your data is useless. 'I'm going to prove <thing we don't like> is broken by using one of two Killers made to do <thing we don't like> and ignore literally the other 90% of the roster that can't do it as well!'
Great science there.
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Well, in a match where a killer decides to face camp at 5 gens for whatever reason and the survivors try and save no matter what, they absolutely care about someone elses fun more than the killer does.
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Face camping doesnt only mean "blocking the hook" which isnt doable anymore, it means camping the hook within a very small distance, lets not devolve into "technicality" arguments like "your exact words could mean something a tiny bit different of what my words mean so your whole argument is invalid from your first post", this forums is a mess but I think it deserves better.
What kind of argument against punishing camping is "Survivors have to waste time looking for a match"? Do Survivors queue times affect gen times? Are gen times slashed by 40 seconds if they had to wait 5 minutes to get into a match? Do the guy who gets camped enjoy being camped after a long queue? one thing is the time you "waste" looking for a match from starting your computer, running the game, clicking search and waiting and another is the time you have inside a match to do what you have to do towards your objective, they dont relate on the slightest, dont derail.
Please, give arguments that counter my exposition about "camping is way too effective against Solos and so the punishment is not as hard as it should" instead of trying to derail the discussion, recurring to cheap semantic arguments or "whataboutthism" because right now you have given none.
Post edited by HectorBrando on3 -
You are sticking to 1 killer, that is super known for facecamping and claim that is to create more accurate data. Yet you claim to want to see if it rewards killers in general, but all you are testing is whether it rewards Bubba? Then take out of consideration that your MMR is lower on that killer compared to others, meaning that your notion of being outclassed seems a little disingenuous or assumes that your general killer skill would not benefit you, while also lowering the overall rating of the opponents - yet accounting for this I will give you is not really in your control and without any numbers being displayed is hard to say; Yet you have brought it up multiple times that your opponents are better than you, without any true objective manner to determine this.
10 games on 1 different killer is once again meaningless in the grand scheme of data getting a streak has little meaning, which by the person conducting the test once again picked them specifically for their characteristics to support this strategy. Additionally they are indicating that they aren't truly face camping, but proxy camping meaning they actually create a far bigger area that they control making it far easier to go for hook trades. If you look at their results, they indicate multiple games with DC's which skewers the data greatly in the killers favor, same applies to not counting hatch escapes as a negative on their kill rate (regardless of how MMR sees it, you didn't kill them). One game they even note a proxy camp within a 3 gen area, which rewards far more than just camping - as you are pressuring 3 gens alongside with it. Therefore this data is not actually clean when it comes to analyzing the reward of face camping - as now you are pressuring gens, there is less time on hook spent by survivors as they rage quit etc. The average time it took to end the game was over 9 mins according to their data, they were able to hook trade and yet all die: does that showcase the killer being rewarded for camping or the average survivors playing badly or their area control applying pressure to gens on top of pressuring the hook being rewarded?
This is what I actually mean with confirmation bias setup, instead of using for instance the same build on multiple killers or picking a killer that literally has nothing meaningful that contributes to using the tactic of face camping. Not distinguishing between face camping and proxying in combination with a 3 gen and using all that data to create some type of argument: All Killers are rewarded by face camping instead of punished is simply untrue.
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Almost all Killers can camp in extremely efficient ways, first of all Save the Best for Last is one of the best M1 camping perks, you can down people even before they unhook and then you have the not so obvious great campers.
- Myers with 99% EW3.
- Huntress.
- Trickster, this one is a beast, his knive rapid fire guarantees you will down the saviour and probably the saved and he is so weak people underestimate how strong he is at camping so theyll try to unhook for sure.
- Deathslinger.
- Ghostface.
- Pyramid Head can down both saviour and saved with punishment.
- Doctor can zap you and stop an unhook.
- Basement Trapper or any Trapper where you can trap the hook entrances, it funnels the saviour towards you or gives you a free down if they step on a trap.
- Hag.
- Twins (altough you wont be hooked but slugged).
- And certain Killers with certain addons like Clown+Pinky
Plus some other options I forgot or didnt think of.
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You are ignoring that facecamping itself does not reward the Killer, the skill of the Survivors does.
Seriously. I don't get this BS narrative that facecamping somehow magically gives the Killer more kills, as if it forces Survivors onto hooks. The numbers don't lie:
Facecamping for 2 hook states takes 120 seconds. Add onto that around 50 seconds for a chase (Not counting insta-down Killers), probably more, but this gives us a round number. That's 3 minutes.
In 3 minutes; 3 Survivors soloing gens can pop all 3, with 100 seconds left over. IE: 1 minute, 40 Seconds left over. That means the Survivor on the hook is not even dead yet.
Your math is excluding a lot of stuff to suit your narrative. I've done 20 games and @KayTwoAyy has also done 20 games of facecamping showing that facecamping on average is giving around 3.2 to 3.4 kills on average, about 1.2 of those kills is considered a win and 2.2 of those kills is considered a draw.
Let me point out what you are excluding in your math to suit your narrative.
- You are completely leaving out the amount of time it takes the other 3 survivors to confirm that someone is facecamping. Each survivor trying to figure out if you are facecamping is less time spent on a generator and more time for Ruin to do it's work.
- Deadlock, which is 30 seconds of gen regression coupled with Ruin. A survivor has to take time finding another generator or waiting at the Deadlocked generator for 30 seconds.
- NOED which is a insta-down and a 5% speed boost, so you are almost guaranteed another kill. Facecamping and NOED are pretty much 2 guaranteed kills.
- Opening a Gate. Which is 20 seconds.
- The time to find a gen and a gate isn't included in your calculations.
- Also, a gen takes 80 seconds to repair, not 60 seconds. So you've excluded 20 seconds per gen.
Let's say it takes ~5 seconds to find an objective. That's ~15 seconds for 3 survivors to get on a gen and work it. I down a survivor as killer and hopefully it won't be a 50 second chase (my god). Anyway, it takes ~5 seconds for each survivor to find me and figure out that I'm camping, that's 3 survivors * ~5 (This is probably closer to 10 seconds to figure it out and get back to the objective), that's ~15 more seconds. Now we're up to ~30 seconds of time. However, Ruin has also done ~15 seconds of lost work on each of those 3 gens, so now we're up to ~45 seconds. Using your example, instead of 1 minute and 20 seconds left over, we have 45 seconds left.
1 gen pops but another gen gets Deadlocked for 30 seconds and a 2nd gen pops. It takes those ~15 seconds for those 3 survivors to find a fresh gen to work. They get ~45 seconds on an ~80 second gen to work. I take an extremely long time to down someone in a chase again at ~50 seconds. So with ~15 seconds left in a chase, another gen pops and another get gets Deadlocked. It takes the survivors ~5 seconds to find another gen, ~10 seconds left in a chase. They start working the last gen and have completed ~10 seconds while I start hook camping my 2nd victim. In ~70 seconds, they complete the last gen and Victim 2 is down to ~50 seconds of time. It takes them ~5 seconds to get to a gate and ~20 seconds to open it. So I defacto get 2 survivors with 2 survivors running out of the gate.
This is a perfectly played game on the survivors side and on the Killers side, I'm sucking-butt because I can't complete a chase in ~50 seconds. Any mistakes on the survivors part and I'm getting a 3rd kill.
You're also forgetting that I could carry each victim to a gen and defend a gen and the survivor, which is what I'm doing now.
And you're also forgetting 40 games of actual data showing that facecamping is actually netting 3.2 kills. You have way to many variables to be able to calculate this mathematically and you are obviously not meticulous enough to do it either with all the mistakes you made.
You're trusting your bad math to 40 games of actual game play data.
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When survivors gen rush, they´ll leave with very little bloodpoints in comparison to a "normal" match. - survivor choice
camping the killer - survivor choice
I agree, your "counter points" are... hilarious.
Btw, what happend to your nickname? Someone added a A, may i ask what the reason was?
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If a killer doesn't catch a survivor, due to lack of skill or the map being very poorly generated, what would you like the other survivors to do? They have no one to save and thus the only points they can actually get is from escaping, which 5K of that (usually a whole quarter) is from escaping
Camping the killer? What is this, a new mechanic you've designed to argue against something that doesn't exist? Or do you mean when each survivor has to find out the killer is camping because yet again, people have to continue reiterating that not everyone SWF is a 4 man stack of comms players.
ALSO, what am I trying to counter? You just can't flat out admit you're wrong, ever. Survivors do gens because they have to ( it's literally how they escape ) killers camp because sometimes they have to (end game) and the majority of them camp at 3 - 5 gens because they want to.
Because my name is Sean, Senzu is from a TV show I've never watched (me and my friends used to have similar names on Xbox, they liked DBZ so we all changed over to Senzu 'animal') after years of being asked about DBZ and what I liked about it, I decided to change it with something simple that removes me from being asked about DBZ but also incorporates my real name.
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Was face camping unfair and unhealthy? Absolutely! Thats why the devs made unhooking from every angle possible. Strangely enough, they kept the tight hook angle for the killer, which still can be body blocked by the survivors.
Now fearing a punishmend for playing a game in a intended way doesn´t really sound healthy to me.
Hell, i´ve even seen a thread where someone proposed "punishing killers with the removal of their entire bloodpoint gains for the next 2 matches, IF the killer was still in the hooks proximity after 10 seconds". Why would anyone even consider playing killer, if something like this was in place? We all know why the hook timer doesn´t pause when the killer is nearby. Because survivors simply looped the killer around the hook, to abuse the mechanic. If there was any way of punishment in place, i guarantee you that survivors would go out of their way to force that punishment on the killer they dislike playing against.
You brought up survivor queues. What do you think is the cause behind the growing survivor queues?
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I´m not trying to counter anything. I simply asked why killers apparently "deserve" punishment.
What i´d like the other survivors to do? Well, as i already said, totems (to prevent NOED), chests or some kind of interaction with the killer. Because both sides profit from interacting with each other (at least points wise).
Camping the killer: camping or better yet face camping is often regarded as the killer standing still in front of the hook. Now camping the killer is exactly the same. Survivors standing in proximity to the camping killer. Also motionless and waiting for him to leave. I even posted some screenshots about survivors that wasted a whole gen by simply standing in proximity to a camping killer. Instead of like, you know, do gens.
Which btw is a weird behavior. Since you yourself said, survivors have little to do apart from gens. This behavior suddenly stops when the killer camps. Thus rewarding the killer for camping.
I firmly believe that the biggest part of camping killers would simply stop or at least reduce camping, once they would only get 1 kill from it. But since survivors reward the killer by not doing what they usually do when the killer doesn´t camp (gens). It turns into a habit. Because a killer that gets more kills by camping than by playing without camps, will stick to that playstyle. Simply because it works.
So far nobody has brought up any good arguments on WHY killers should be punished. Therefore i propose something else. Reward killers for not camping.
The easiest solution that comes to my mind would be to simply upgrade BBQ: Once the killer has hooked everyone once, the killer can get another 4 stacks by hooking every survivor a second time. Resulting in a possible bonus of 200%. While the devs are on it, they could also upgrade WGLF. Now of course, the amount of stacks and the way stacks are gained would have to be updated. How about 2 stacks for a unhook and 1 stack for protection hits, cleansing/booning a totem? Which still results in 8 possible stacks for a bonus of 200%.
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I'm not going to read all that but honestly I don't want killer punished for camping, and i haven't expressed that view at all, I just think that saying "Well it's boring for killers as well / killers don't get bp either" when it's their choice to play this way in most cases is just silly.
Additionally, I don't think upgrading BBQ will do anything, most survivors don't care about being camped at one gen, it's the 3 / 4 / 5 gen campers people dislike, and if a killer has made THEIR choice to camp at this amount of gens then they obviously don't care about the amount of bloodpoints they earn as they've effectively chosen to give up on BBQ stack all-together playing this way.
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Having a punishment for playing the game in a way doesnt sound unhealthy to me, after all a lot of strats have punishments by either side, rush gens on the outskirts? get 3gened, predrop pallets in an excessive way? create deadzones, attempt a mass slug? people get picked up by the others, split damage? people get mass healed, put all your apples on the Hex basket? everything gets cleansed in the first minute etc etc etc, obviusly nobody is advocating for bans most people are asking for ways to know when a facecamp is happening so they can push gens without requiring Kindred.
Camping against Solos should have a stronger punishment by the Solos instead of what we have now, where camping is super effective against them.
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Camping will never be changed because nothing better for a game than player rage, passionate involvement and endless discussions.
Keeps you hooked.
Like this study that hate comments and topics in (anti)social media generate the most clicks.
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I know how fix face camping just increase gens from 5 to 7. when killer hooks his first survivor and 3 gens pops he will be cool still have 3 gens better go find the other survivors. But there is the whole what about the low level survivors ill repeat what toxic survivors say they can just get good at the game.
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Absurd, once Killer hooks his first Survivor he will facecamp even harder because now he knows Survivors wont be able to fix the gens before the hooked one dies.
Same thing "increase gen timers" doesnt solve facecamping but encourages it even more.
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If your a steamer your getting hard camped by me as a killer because i know your friends will come save you and get off gens as for what you said above killers have been abused for some time and need time to cool off it would take half a year to cool off
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qe can do the same for solos. If you play solo you gain 500% more bps. And if you play swf you only get 100%, as usual. This would incentívate play solo
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Thats not what some people mean with punishment. The proposals for punishment seem to go as far as limiting players from playing and/or preventing them from earning any bloodpoints.
But instead we should reward killers that don´t camp with more bloodpoints.
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Something like that could work, if it went both ways. Killers that earn a bonus for facing SWF. Even though the 500% bonus seems a bit to much.
But thats a whole different thread.
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Let's just get this out of the way since folks are going to argue this hard.
This isn't even the first time they've said they have no plans. It's just one of the most recent.
Circa 2017, them expressing what is not even reportable, camping.
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And those proposals should be hastily ignored (and will be once they decide to act against facecamping).
In any case limiting BPs wont make a dent on the issue, people who camp do it for 3 motives:
- Trolling: being camped on hook is infuriating and a lot of people get a kick out of pissing off others, trolling is its own reward, they dont care about BPs.
- Venting anger: people who got angry because someone looped them too much, clicked their flashlights too much or tbaged, they dont care about BPs, they just want revenge.
- Securing a kill: otherwise they feel like they lost they care more about kills than BPs you could reduce the gains to 0 and still the importance of kills will override the 0 BPs, this is the only group who could care about BPs but then again, killing>bps.
The only real way to punish camping and making it less of an issue is if Survivors have an easier way of knowing when its happening and they react accordingly by rushing the gens left so if someone camps, they get only 1 kill, plus the camped person has the solace the other 3 got out and is less likely to tilt, reducing the odds of the troll getting a reaction from the camped person.
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Are they actually punished? Nope. That's why we see so much camping. I hope a fix comes soon.
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Survs - just let you catch easier - die more often - don´t escape so much - don´t throw so much pallets - don´t blind.
If killers get mor confident overall they will face camp less.
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There is a fourth one: killers that don´t care about anything and only want survivors to have a bad time. Those killers basically got bullied several matches in a row and now they take it out on the first survivor they find. Sort of like "if i can´t have fun, neither will you" thingy.
Years ago there was a proposal to give survivors inbuilt Kindred. Showing every other survivor where the other survivors and especially the killer was.
But luckily, this idea was scrapped. Because it would greatly improve survivors gen efficiency. Since only 1 survivor would run for a unhook. It would put killers (even the non camping ones) under even more pressure.
BBQ was a step into the right direction. Rewarding killers for hooking everyone once. The devs should continue on that path.
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Thats either trolling or venting anger.
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If devs eliminate camping, which is almost required to some degree for success at the highest levels, then I hope there will be a compensatory
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I have seen this posted before and dismissed it at first, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea. The idea is already in use and there isn't issues with it, so I would say push it out.
Maybe just have the survivor teleported to random hook on the opposite side of the map when they are hooked. It's already been used with Pyramidhead cages without issues, why not just add it to hooks also. The developers already have the code in the game, just make a random hook appear, then disappear after an unhook just like a Pyramidhead cage.
Killers aren't punished and survivors can't be effectively facecamped.
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No, Killers are punished if you do that. Generally, "far away from the Killer after they downed someone" is right next to a Survivor. It's hilarious to watch PH cages pop like 5s after you've even finished the animation. So, you can't maintain any pressure because a Survivor is temporarily removed from action, you can't apply pressure by chasing another Survivor and forcing one of the others to go for a save (because they don't even need to get off gens for 20s to do it), there's no chance to intercept someone moving in for a save and start another chase (or again force a third Survivor to do something about it) because now the Survivors are all closer to the hook than you are etc.
That would completely destroy the game balance.
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Well, you probably would've gotten less if the survivors weren't stupid to come back for the person (I can only assume this is how you got more than 1 kill)
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As I said in your suggestion thread:
Except for a few things:
- What if it's EGC? The Killer has nothing to do but camp, at that point. His objective is to kill, and his hook teleporting away basically means the Survivor will be freed. Basically; this idea screws Killers in the end game by handing free unhooks to Survivors.
- What if it teleports in front of an open door? Or a 99% door? Once again; the Survivors are given a gift-wrapped unhook when the Killer literally has 0 goals other than 'secure kills'. Once again; the Killer is screwed by free unhooks being given to Survivors.
And as @RainehDaze said; if you teleport it away from the Killer's position, you will most likely teleport it next to a Survivor. They now got a free unhook within 5 seconds of the Killer hooking. It basically gives Survivors free unhooks without even causing them to lose time on gens.
Not as flawless an idea as you've claimed.
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And also, what even becomes the point of the basement in such a scenario?
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Also, also: What about Killers like Trapper and Hag, who's powers can be used as a warning against Survivors brainlessly sprinting in? No more guarding the hook, because it teleported away!
But I'm sure BHVR thought of all this, given how long PH's cages have been in the game. Heck, PH's cages may have been a trial run for the idea as a whole. ANd they never set it for normal hooks.
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Camping is not going away and if somehow it does there better be a compromise since survivors will abuse it
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Yes and no. It's on the survivors to punish them for it. If the survivor does they are but a lot of the time survivors will just play along then get mad when taking the worst course of action ends poorly.
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It can be disabled after 5 gens are completed, Killers do need the ability to camp at that point.
I think the Developers already have code in Pyramid Head's cages to adjust for distance from other survivors as well as from the Killer, because when I've seen the cages used, I always see them far away from survivors as well as Killers. It's rare that the cages appear right next to survivors that I've noticed. But is that any different than when another survivor is close by and is able to unhook someone after the Killer walks away? It's not game breaking, obviously, since Killers still use Pyramid Head and still use his cages.
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Yes, because killers don’t abuse it
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