Are Killers Actually Punished for Camping
Comments
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on paper yes it should and it does punish the killer if they're camping.
but the problem comes with survivors throwing themselves at the killer giving them more hooks than they deserve and not doing the gens or resetting for a group rescue.
this then makes the MMR think that the killer is better than they actually are, because they got free kills =/ MMR points. this is why you see there being too many killers in higher ranks or killers who don't deserve to be there come online and then whine about the survivor bullying them.
this only makes the problem worse for them if they're a noed gamer and it lets them secure kills which the MMR will simply think that they did a good job. stop bringing noed you numskulls. want easier games, stop doing and bringing stuff that boosts your mmr.
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It's the MMR comment mentioned.
Essentially, a hatch escape doesn't tell you anything about the balance of a match or tactic because it's just "who is closer to this point". We shouldn't note them as a kill, but we shouldn't lump them in with other escapes either when trying to evaluate... anything.
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Yeah, it happens to me when I get a camper playing solo Q. Even though I know it's risky I still want to try and help the guy being camped to give him at least a chance to play the game. But whenever it's me I just want to desperately tell my teammates not to engage lol
It's a different story if I'm playing SWF, whoever gets camped will just die on the hook. No exceptions. Just let the others know you are being camped and it's gen simulator for the next minutes. No hard feelings.
I don't know what happened to the old "raise your hands on hook to let them know the killer is camping", I wish that was a thing again xD
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In theory and top level play camping is a losing strategy.
In practise people have 4k'd with burger king myers who holding w against is an infinite. People just don't play brutally efficiently all the time.
Especially when that effeciency is just boring. I bet most players would rather be sacrificed trying to save then just sit on the sideline and leaving
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WHY should killers be punished for camping?
- Because the camped survivors don´t get a lot of bloodpoints? Same goes for the camping killer.
- Because getting camped is boring? Well guess what its like for the killer.
- Because camped survivors lower their mmr? A high mmr isn´t exactly something people should strive for. At least if they want to have any sort of fun.
When survivors only push gens (because its their only objective, asside from totems, chests, hook rescues and heals) and even camp them, its considered as playing efficiently. But when killers camp their only objective its considered something worthy of punishment? Like... really?
So i ask again, WHY should killers be punished for camping?
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Yes, you will win like that but to me, it just pains me to see a teammate not having a chance, so I will die trying.
I guess camping is a winning strategy against me XD
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Because camping and tunneling give them kills they don’t deserve, same as noed, and they rank up and they feel they’re semigods, and finally they play with survs better than them and they come here crying 24/7
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You already gave the reasons: there's no BP, and it's incredibly boring.
'but it's boring for the killer too!'
That just makes it worse, since it's the killer that instigates it. Camping is the killer's choice, the killer's fault, and if it needs to be discouraged via punishment, it'll be the killer that has to be punished.
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What do you mean with undeserved? A hatch escape would be something undeserved, because its complete RNG where the hatch spawns.
But the killer got that hook in a normal chase. So why wouldn´t it be deserved?
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Against survivors with brains then they should 100% be punished. If someone gets down within 20 seconds of the first chase they were setup for failure given the amount of 2nd chance perks there are and extremely generous tile generation and gen spreads. But hey they balance around new players and not average players so I wouldn't be surprised if they made it so you lose the ability to walk if you stay near the hook for more than 10 seconds.
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"Undeserved"? How can a kill be "undeserved"? You downed a survivor and kept them on hook until they died. The Survivor didn't just have a heart attack and die.
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You know what also gives little BP and is boring? Holding m1 until the gates are powered. Not engaging in player interaction and just focusing gens. By your logic, this also "has" to be punished.
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The hook's deserved. The kill is not. Survivors have to be hooked three times for a reason.
Getting a hook in means nothing, since the game is designed to disallow infinite looping/running. If we want to allow survivors to die on first hook, or normalise it, killers need a veritable crapton of nerfs to accommodate.
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Nope, because guess what? That M1 holder impacts him or herself only. The killer can still hunt, other survivors can still do their own stuff.
But a killer goes camping, and -everyone- loses all interaction.
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I think a better way would be to encourage leaving the hook rather then discouraging it by punishing.
A lot of killers camp because it just is the best and easiest way to get the job done. If spreading your hooks out would be more viable then killers would be camping a lot less
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Not keen on leaving a loaded gun in either party's hands when discussing disarming the other party.
Gens go this fast because camping's a thing. Slowing it down would just make camping stronger.
It needs to be kneecapped. No other way is going to solve the problem.
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No punishment will really stop it except "Survivors will always get a safe unhook even if you chase them back to the hook", which is a terrible design spot to aim for--you might as well not have hooks at that point. You might as well say "each killer does two stupid dances over a Survivor before you mori".
Or you could make automatic regression basekit, maybe fiddle with anti-tunnelling, so moving around to force people off gens and letting someone go for the unhook is always worth it. And not "if you don't know where someone is or can't catch them in a chase, sitting tight is your best option".
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Good point! Survivors "should" be hooked 3 times for a reason. This totals at 12 hooks. Meanwhile 4 survivors have to push out 5 gens. Following your logic, survivors are in for a long overdue nerf.
Because a m1 holder doesn´t impact the game only for himself. Since gens are progressed for everyone. Not individually. Even though its an interesting concept, that each survivor would have to complete 5 gens individually. Which would outbalance the above mentioned 12 hook issue. But i think 20 gens in total would be a bit to much. Survivors would only do gens, which doesn´t vary much from what they do now, but still. Maybe something in between, or even better: a additional objective instead of so many gens. But this belongs to another thread.
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When you do your next test please swap out "Kills" for Hooks" im curious to know how much NOED is affecting your kill rate overall. You could have a match where you got no hooks but NOED comes into play and you get 3 kills via 1 hook. Kills dont tell us the whole picture, hooks tell more.
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@Munqaxus lays out the scientific method step-by-step to shed some light on a hot topic in the community. How on earth do any of you take yourself seriously whilst responding with nothing but anecdotal evidence?
Anyway, here are my own numbers--I added Trial Time in my stats as I figured it'd be pretty telling of what went down.
I just prestiged Bubba, so I didn't have all the perks I wanted. I definitely could have performed better with the right perks.
Takeaways:
- Monsterous Shrine does not work and/or is effectively useless. 4 of 6 survivors who tried to unhooked themselves in the basement succeeded, despite the fact that Monstrous Shrine is supposed to increase the difficulty of escape attempts by 15% (mathematically thats either a .6% or .006% debuff, depending on how its calculated). No luck offerings were burned. Survivors also still had 3 unhook attempts, even after waiting a few seconds to try escaping, despite the 9% increased penalty on escape fails.
- Insidious is unreliable on Bubba. I think it just comes with the turf, but only 1 out of 40 survivors fell into my Insidious trap. People weren't running Kindred, so I'm lead to believe people play it safe when they hear a chainsaw then no terror radius after first hook.
- People hand you free wins. I had a d/c very early in each of my first 2 games, then 3 survivors d/c'd in near unison after I camped first hook on Torment Creek. Multiple games I had survivors kill themself on first hook immediately.
- No Way Out hands you free kills. All of my 2ks and my 3k would have come up 1 kill short had I not run No Way Out. The exit gate delay bought me just enough time to watch the 2nd survivor die on hook then find a final survivor to chase.
- Camping is unsatisfying. Regardless of its viability, face-camping for 10 straight games is a dull affair. I don't recommend it.
Perks That Would Have Increased My Kill Count (Instead of monsterous Shrine, Insidious & Iron Maiden)
- Brutal Strength, Enduring & Spirit Fury Game 6 & 7 were my weakest performances, because both first chases were drawn out a little too long for camping to apply any real pressure.
- Corrupt Intervetion, Deadlock, & Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance Slowing the speed at which gens were able to be completed would have undoubtedly netted me an extra kill in game 4, 7, & 9.
- Agitation, Iron Grasp, & Starstruck Game 4 & 6 both saw survivors successfully unhooked in my face with BT, followed by effective hook bombing & body blocking. A survivor wiggled off my shoulder in trial 4 & 7 as well, due to misjudgement of the distance of basement.
In Conclusion,
At least 25% of survivors will give up and kill themself on hook or disconnect from the trial. Survivors take an average of 8m 54s to finish all 5 gens against a face-camping killer; therefore, you need to catch your first survivor within 2 minutes to secure a 2k. Camping is boring but it works.
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Do you actually even play Bubba? Or are you going against absolute babies?
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Weird conclusion to say that No Way Out hands out free kills. By definition, the cost of those kills is No Way Out and having the hooks to lock the doors for the time needed.
And not to get too pedantic, but collecting only the values you think are relevant is also a pretty poor example of the scientific method. Or even data collection as a whole. Plus personal variables (and many things we can't control for like MMR). Let's not cast stones about data quality when there's not much better. Maybe if we could arrange some sort of multiperson approach to data gathering and not explicitly set out only gathering seemingly relevant data... xD
And its Monstrous. Monstrous Shrine.
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And how are you going to kneecap it without crippling the killer when the situation calls for camping?
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The only killer who denies hook saves is bubba. Here's the counter (also depends on the map):
Bubbas are easily looped.
Loop him for 5 gens as bubba players are most probably terrible at the game and resort to camping.
Escape.
If you fail to loop him for 5 gens, well... try again on the next bubba.
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They do get punished by camping, against efficient teams. If a survivor team doesn't do gens and wants to hover around a hooked person all game, they probably would have lost regardless of camping.
Getting rewarded for camping would be getting more than a 2k, which almost never happens against efficient teams. Only the survivors can reward the killer for camping, because at worst what should happen is a survivor gets camped, all the gens get done, the killer downs and camps someone with NOED, the other 2 survivors run out. If they find the NOED, they get all 3 out.
If the camper isn't Leathface, they could at any time throughout the game send someone in to hook trade, because you know the game isn't gonna give the killer the grab. The survivor will just 25% the unhook animation, make the killer panic and swing, and then they get a free unhook. If they have BT and Dead Hard, the unhooker gets away, btw.
I don't think people realize how little power killers have just sitting in front of a hooked person.
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Just a small tip for you: 10 games is not "scientific method". As a wannabe research irl it pains me reading this.
For a game with over 50k players daily only on Steam, 10 games is laughable as data. And as mentioned above you didn't even show the other variables, and there are some you can't even control like MMR. Your games.
Your comment and the OP's post is just as anecdotal evidence as anyone's else.
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I think you said the TRUE punishment of it all at the end of your statement..
"if you can handle the boredom"
IT IS EXTREMELY BORING TO CAMP. I mean, I literally tried it 1 single time in my life when I was still a new player, and I hated it so much I never bothered again.
The TRUE punishment above all else is Boredom.
If the purpose of playing a "video game" of any sort, is for entertainment, something to enjoy with your time (mind you that for many people time is a very valuable thing and not everyone has lots of extra time to spare for video games to begin with) .. then camping quite literally defeats the purpose of even playing a game at all whatsoever.
Technically, you're hardly playing.
I truly believe that the people who camp are the type of people who don't actually enjoy playing video games for games but rather for the purpose of harrassing other humans online, kind of like internet trolls, or people who care so much about trying to "get kills" in a competitive setting that they would rather give up actual fun, for the "Fun" of getting a gauranteed kill.
The interesting thing about that, is that if they would actually just take the time to get better at the game, they would be able to secure just as many kills if not more on average playing normal without camping or tunneling. It just require more practice, but its well worth it in the end if you plan to continue playing the game.
I am a Killer, I never camp or tunnel, and yeah when I face really strong sweaty survivor teams I get rocked from time to time w/ 4 escapes and it can be very unfun especially if they BM me and bodyblock hooks and use flashlights and firecrackers etc, but on average I have always gotten at least a 2K or more without relying on those methods and just playing the game normally.
It's just fun, if it wasn't then I wouldn't play, and often times as soon as I have a bad game and am no longer having fun, I just log off and stop anyways. Similarly, I often log off if my matches are too easy as well, because that's boring too lets be honest.
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Are you legitimately going to try to argue '5 are fewer than 12 so therefor survivors need nerfing'?
Because a m1 holder doesn´t impact the game only for himself. Since gens are progressed for everyone. Not individually. Even though its an interesting concept, that each survivor would have to complete 5 gens individually. Which would outbalance the above mentioned 12 hook issue. But i think 20 gens in total would be a bit to much. Survivors would only do gens, which doesn´t vary much from what they do now, but still. Maybe something in between, or even better: a additional objective instead of so many gens. But this belongs to another thread.
Oh. You actually ARE going for that angle. Okay.
Well, I would recommend that you play the game first, before you get into any kind of argument about balance. You know, figure out how the game works, and its nuances.
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True its a good point, he basically said that he's newer to bubba, of course camping is going to work against Solo Q new survivors, wait until you get high MMR and then test it and see how effective it really is.. I'm sure the results will be quite different lol.
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Actually you started this argument. As you said: "Survivors have to be hooked three times for a reason." I just completed the logic behind this statement of yours.
That being said, i have probably played this game a little longer than you. Watched how it changed over the years for both sides.
Now let me ask again: Why should killers be punished for camping?
Wouldn´t it be better to reward killers that don´t camp instead of punish them? Both sides could profit from rewarding killers that don´t camp. Punishing players for playing the game in an intended way, sounds simply wrong, doesn´t it?
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Unfortunately, unless you're going against inefficient players, you have to camp sometimes. I hate doing it, which is why I've been playing killer less and less, but the devs don't care. They'll prob give the killer like 10% less movement speed around hooks while also buffing survivors even more because that is how you get people to stop camping, right?
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Camping isn't the 'intended gameplay'. The devs themselves have stated this, but they just haven't found an anti-camping solution yet. You can keep giving ideas on rewarding killers for -not camping-, but that's not going to change things if camping can easily net you a no effort 2K against most survivor teams you'll face.
Camping needs to not be remotely viable before it can really start to die out.
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And there is no way to functionally achieve that which does not turn the meta into 100% slugging because hooked Survivors become godlike safety beacons.
So, you do something else. Which is "make not camping more appealing".
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How do you know that it's impossible to make an anti-camping measure that doesn't affect non-campers? If anti-camping measures are such a big problem, why's camaraderie one of the least-picked perks in the game?
This whole shtick of 'You can't work anti-camp' is just an excuse to keep camping in. I can agree with 'it's hard to come up with something for that' but I absolutely can't agree with this short-sighted attitude of 'it's impossible'.
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Okay, then propose an anti-camping measure that does not, with the rest of the game as it is, somehow loop back to "Survivor runs towards hook during a chase and the Killer gets punished for it".
The only remotely close thing I've seen is "BT is basekit but unhooked Survivors lose collision", but that mostly just makes trades instead. And you'd still need to do something to make up for the sudden free perkslot that also means unsafe unhooks are now only moderately unsafe.
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Okay, first: Just because I say it can be done, doesn't immediately mean that I need to have the solution. If you see a rocket lift-off and then explode, you can easily say that it can be done without exploding without being expected to have the answer ready. My point is that the attitude of 'can't be done' shuts down discussion when we could come to a useful solution. But forum killers don't -want- a solution, so they just stick their heads in the sand and parrot the same dumb line: "It can't be done"
Secondly: What free perk slot? Unsafe unhooks would still be unsafe unhooks.
Thirdly:
Gen repair speeds are increased if, 20 seconds after hooking, the killer is within X radius of a hooked survivor. This buff is increased further for every remaining gen and every survivor actively working on a gen. This buff is decreased by survivors' proximity to a hooked survivor or the killer. This buff is disabled while the killer is in a chase, or if there's one or no gens left to be repaired.
Now it's your turn to pick it apart and we can figure out if we can patch it up to fix the problems you find.
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To answer you question. I only had 1 hatch escape in those 10 games, that's 40 different possible kills/escapes. Changing that 1 hatch escape changes my Average Kills from 3.3 to 3.2, so it's a 0.1 change. It changes my kill ratio from 82.50% to 80.00%, so a 2.5% change. So it's pedantic.
However, I do consider survivors how escape through the hatch, without completing gens as a complete fail on the survivor-side because they had already lost. It's basically a give-me. However, I see that people are going to nitpick something so minor, that I'm going to revert that 1 hatch escape.
This sample size is not adequate to actually prove anything in relation to either the number of actual players or circumstances even broken down into the length of a one session per day. You won't generate enough data points to show a proper trend or extrapolate an average in a meaningful way until you played many sessions.
As to this point, I already addressed it by saying I'm going to keep running this test for the next couple of days and try and get about 50 games.
The mileage you get from camping depends entirely on your opponents. It'll wreak havoc on an uncoordinated group, but can backfire hard against a good SWF.
I have already went against some really good SWFs that were amazing at loops. I'm not great at Leatherface, I like Trapper, Hag, Pinhead, Twins and Billy. I don't have all the perks I really need for camping-Leatherface, finally just got DeadLock to tier 3 and I'm wasting 1 perk for bloodpoints (BBQ which is useless in a camping build).
Even against really good SWF Teams, who were doing dual flashlight saves, I still managed to get 2k or 3k. 2k is not a loss, it's a draw, should I really be getting a "draw" flat out face-camping?
At this point, I would assume my MMR is getting pretty high, since I'm getting 1.2 kills on average a match, above a "draw" game. I was actually doing worse when I first started out camping because I didn't understand how to effectively do it with Leatherface. If you look, my Kill/Escapes has actually went up.
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Camping actually IS intended gameplay.
Timestamp 0:44
Also, if camping wasn´t intended gameplay, then why does Insidious exist?
So again, why punish killers for camping? Which obviously was intended from the beginning?
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'They don't deserve'. And there's that Survivor ego, thinking they gets to decide just HOW the Killer can kill.
If the Killer killed you, or the Survivor escaped, and they were not using cheats, bugs, or exploits; they deserved the kill. Sorry to burst your bubble, bubby.
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Lot of misconceptions popping up.
"Survivors each have to be hooked 3 times" not quite. Survivors get 3 chances, assuming they are saved from the hook. If they were meant to always be hooked 3 times, they would be popped off the hook by the game, rather than going to the next stage on a timer. Also, the hook counter actually counts transitions as a hook, so you can hook each survivor only 1 time, and if they die on hook, you get a full hook counter.
"Camping isn't intended" again, gotta disagree. We know from multiple dev diaries that camping is, in fact, an intended mechanic. True face camping (which hasn't been actually possible for years) wasn't, which was why they fixed it so that a survivor could be unhooked from any angle, not just the front. (Fun side question, who here remembers when a killer could hook you and literally go afk if he stood in the right spot, knowing you were blocked from being saved? That was true face camping. How bad would that have sucked with Twins?)
"10 matches per day, 50 matches total is a good data set" not really, especially not with just one player who's skill level we just don't know. You could be the best bubba player ever (you can't be the worst, because I am) not only would I suggest playing as every killer, I would also suggest getting a group of people of different skill levels to do the same. A good daily goal for sampling would be 100 games each. With 10 people that gives you 1k a day, after a month you'd have enough data to actually see trends, still not enough for peer review standards, but then we're discussing video games, not cancer treatment. Which leads to my last bit.
"Hatch escapes aren't escapes" until BHVR let's us actually see the algorithm they use to sort mmr out, I'm not going to take a position on how they are counted in the game. I would suggest for any aspiring researchers out there just count it as a third category, same with DC. (So kills, door escapes, hatch escapes, disconnects. 4 total categories)
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This is the ego of majority of DBD players (Killer or Survivor). You know its bad when your argument against someone winning is that they did something they were SUPPOSED to do and won, but didn’t deserve it.
”The Killer doesn’t deserve to win, they tunneled/camped & had NOED/BW/DH/ any other “crutch” perks to win.”
”The Survivors don’t deserve to win, they looped & used DS/UB/DH/BT/ any other “crutch” perks to win.
as if these perks and strats weren’t designed to help either side to win.
This is the only game I’ve ever played where you’re criticized/attacked for trying to win.
Its a ridiculous state of mind. Entitlement is an understatement.
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Happens in all weapon/class/character-based games.
I saw it happen in TF2 (<X> class is cheap! That's why you won!)
Overwatch (<X> character (usually Bastion) is broken!)
Probably happens in any BR game. And Battlefield or COD.
Players will blame everyone but themselves as to why they lost. Broken weapons/characters/powers/perks. Lag. 'He's probably cheating because there's no way I'm this bad'. Etc.
It just seems to be more pronounced in DBD. Each side seems to think they can demand how the other side plays; what perks, Killers, and powers can be used. You see it with 'I DC if I see <x>' comments. And while that seems to be FROM Survivors more; I'm 100% sure it would be reversed if perks were tied to Survivors like powers are tied to Killers. IE: 'I disconnect if I see <survivor>!' would be common if Survivor characters were not basically switchable with any perks.
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Did you really not read the post I was responding to?
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I have a better solution, Hooks behave like Pyramid Head cages.
P.D. Wouldnt be surprised if cages are an old idea to get rid of camping seeing how everything Pyramid Head its barely related to its Silent Hill incarnation (Killer movement, power, perks, cages behaviour etc, they just got a lot of ideas and strapped them to a licensed character to rake in the hype and the monies).
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While camping does need a fix. It HAS to come at the same time as a generator rework.
The second you force Killers to 12 hook while gens stay at ~5 minutes; you will have no more Killers to play against, because the game will become unwinnable for them.
The game, as it is right now, is not long enough for a 12 hook-state match.
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"Camping isn't intended" again, gotta disagree. We know from multiple dev diaries that camping is, in fact, an intended mechanic. True face camping (which hasn't been actually possible for years) wasn't, which was why they fixed it so that a survivor could be unhooked from any angle, not just the front. (Fun side question, who here remembers when a killer could hook you and literally go afk if he stood in the right spot, knowing you were blocked from being saved? That was true face camping. How bad would that have sucked with Twins?)
I don't know if this is actually what people are saying. I think people are saying that face-camping is rewarding Killer-players with Kills way beyond the skill it takes to face-camping.
I've seen it stated numerous times on these boards that killers are punished for face-camping by only getting 1 kill and 3 escapes. In face, the exact opposite is happening right now. As I am face-camping, I'm getting 3.2 kills and 0.8 escapes on average per game.
From a game design perspective, this is ridiculous. I'm going against survivors way beyond my skill level and I know for a fact I'm not deserving 3.2 kills against a bunch of these survivors. Several of those games, if I had not face camped, the survivors would have gotten a well-deserved 4 man escape, because they were that much more skilled than I was.
There were survivors making amazing coordinated 2 person flashlight saves. Amazing Dead-Hard/Borrowed Time saves. Survivors that straight worked gens while I face camped. Every single one lost by 1.2 kills on average.
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Camping is intended gameplay, what isnt intended is for it to be that effective against Solos, they already stated something like "we dont want to get rid of camping but we want to tone how effective it is" some months ago in a Dev diary or Q&A session.
What devs want is if you want to camp you are free to but take on account youll get severely punished, which almost never happens against Solos.
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You deserve what you are being handed. Not for nothing, but if the survivors are feeding themselves to you while you stay in one place, then they really aren't that great. Especially if you are on bubba, one of the easiest characters to actually see in the game. The easiest skill in the world is to see the giant with the chainsaw who's staring at your buddy (and therefore has his back to you) and head in the other direction. With kindred you don't even need to be close enough to see him, just remember the pink aura isn't your friend.
That's the issue I have with the whole "skill" idea. Sure it takes no skill to press a button while someone is right in front of you, but it takes the same level to put yourself right in front of someone who isn't moving.
As far as whether people are claiming it's unintended. Read this and the other thread, that was a direct quote.
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No party streamers? Damn this killer rulebook is getting heavy. What's the issue with streamers? Hate free BP?
Post edited by Rizzo on2 -
'I don't know if this is actually what people are saying. I think people are saying that face-camping is rewarding Killer-players with Kills way beyond the skill it takes to face-camping.'
That's wrong. It's SURVIVORS rewarding facecamping with kills way beyond the skill it takes to facecamp.
Or are you trying to claim that facecamping somehow injures, downs, and hooks Survivors while the Killer stands there and does nothing? Because that what it sounds like every single time a Survivor scream that 'Facecamping rewards Killers'; they are literally ignoring the role they play in 'rewarding' facecamping in order to pretend it's some sort of OP play.
Killer: *Facecamps 1 Survivor.*
Survivors: *Swarm the hook, or hide nearby, instead of doing gens.*
*Hooked Survivor dies. Killer finds another Survivors because gens never got done.*
Survivors: Damn! Facecamping sure gives the Killer a whole bunch of unearned kills! It had nothing to do with us not doing our objective! 🙃
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