Interesting comment on a NOED video...
I was watching this video:
One of the comments stated:
"They used pallets and Dead Hard to win the early to mid game. You used NOED to win the late game. Perfectly balanced."
What do the fine people of the forums think of this video/comment?
Comments
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I would bet that the person who wrote this comment is on this Forum. And that they are a Killer Main. And complained about Survivors at least 3 times this week.
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Not the response/discussion I was expecting, but I'm not surprised.
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I don't think that's a good argument.
It reminds me of a fairly common argument back in early 2019 about keys and mori's. "Well, because Keys exist, we need to have Mori's to even it out."
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can't argue with that logic
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Not a good argument.
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Ofc another us vs them person stuck in that mind set love to see it
Really shocking truly original and awe inspiring
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I would give my comment 9 out of 10 points.
To the actual content of the comment:
I think mentioning Pallets is nonsense anyway. They are basic game mechanics, neither player has to bring anything to spawn Pallets on the Maps. You could also say that you use Dead Hard because the Killer has the ability to press M1 to remove a Health State, would be teh same "logic".
DH and NOED makes more sense, since both are Perks. However, for me personally, the game is lost when 5 Gens got done and I did not get a Kill at this point. And I dont mind DH as Killer, but I mind NOED as Survivor, since it feels cheap and the "counter" is dumb.
But everyone can run what they like, if someone thinks they need NOED; they should run NOED, if they think they need DH, they should run DH.
(But obviously, you cannot really compare the Perks to each other.)
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I love noed. It makes me more likely to spread out my hooks and only tunnel 1 survivor at the most.
When I run Noed, I go into a match wanting early game snowball so you dont have time to cleanse which is why lethal-->BBQ is my standard setup..
I go against 16 perks and I choose to save one of my 4 perks for a time that I prefer. That's one slot that could have went to tinkerer...
I laugh when people call noed a crutch perk just because it's an end game perk.
If you run aura perks, you must be bad too. Just find stuff/people. Run chase perks? You must be a bad chaser. Run gen regression? You must be bad and cant apply any pressure etc.
I'm not giving up just because all the gens popped. You have to actually leave the trial before you win.
The Entity loves Noed gamers because we fill Survivors with hope. They get so close to salvation, only to be robbed and filled with despair.
I enjoy playing with my food.
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Honestly that sounds accurate to me. Although in fairness it was the Game, so there should have been enough goddamn pallets to win the early, mid, and late game NOED or not.
Also if you watch the video you can see the totem spawned RIGHT THERE next to him. So it was arguably the worst case possible scenario for the survivors.
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NoED is just a Killer planning for the end game.
Remember: The Killer has not 'lost' just because all 5 gens pop. So NoED is not 'rewarding losing', because the Killer has not lost until the match ends.
Survivors are not safe until they leave the trial.
Survivors have not won until they are out of the trial.
Until the last Survivor leave the trial; the Killer can still kill them. Ergo: NoED is not 'rewarding losing' like I've had some idiots in-game scream at me.
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Anyone that thinks the game is over at 5 gens in the current meta is simply not adapting.
NOED aside, NWO and BW are both making huge plays in my games on both sides.
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So you think if a Killer gets 0 hooks in the trial prior to 5 gens being done but gets a 2K because of NOED it's fair?
Because that doesn't seem fair to anyone.
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A few years ago (and as I still get yelled at in-game); this was the go-to argument to 'nerf NoED': That it 'rewarded failure' and 'The Killer has basically already lost'.
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A bubba or infinite tier 3 Myers can reproduce the same result with no noed needed.
Yet were not changing Bubba any time soon...
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I think you meant to say 'That does not seem fair to me', because you are not everyone.
And yes, it's fair, because Survivors can do this amazing thing called 'Cleansing totems'. WOW! Such bones! Much cleansing!
It's simple: the Killer brought a perk that only works in the end game. If Survivors are bad enough to not cleanse it before it procs, or after it procs, or to JUST LEAVE; the Killer earned his kills. Amazing how that works!
You claiming 'Blah, blah. Not fair' does not change that yes; it is fair. The Killer used a perk. A perk that can be removed before it triggers. A perk that only works in the end game. And he used it to GOOD EFFECT and got those 2 kills. Since he GOT the two kills, and he did not cheat or exploit glitches; he EARNED the 2 kills.
It's that simple.
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I meant anyone in the trial. Apologies, I should have been more specific.
The Killer gets their MMR to go up. Which gives them (in theory) sweatier opponents. This will mean they continue to have a miserable experience.
Oh? Does NOED often work against SWF?
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I'd wonder how he got two hooks w/ NOED and managed to camp them both to death at the same time while playing so poorly all game, tbh.
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Infinite Tier III Myers is going to pop that ######### before all 5 gens are done 99% of the time, so that's almost completely irrelevant.
And Bubba's camping ability is an issue. I'm just not sure about how to fix it without gutting the character.
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I don't get the question about MMR and SWFs?
You said 'So you think if a Killer gets 0 hooks in the trial prior to 5 gens being done but gets a 2K because of NOED it's fair?'
And I'm saying that yes, it is fair. 5 gens being done is not some sort of magical cut-off point for the Killer to get kills. No rule in the game states 'If the Killer has 0 kills before 5 gens pop; Survivors get to leave for free'.
As long as Survivors are in the trial; the Killer can kill them. This means that individual Survivor is not safe, and has not won, until they, personally leave. Which means they, personally, can be killed.
Which means NoED is doing what it's designed to do; kill at the end-game.
All this BS about 'not fair' is just whining, man. Survivors have invented a cut-off points for kills; 5 gens popping. And now they point at their own, made up rule, and scream 'This proves NoED is unfair! By Survivor decree, the Killer has LOST by now!'
I'll say it again: Until each, and every, Survivor is off that map; those that remain are potential kills.
What does it matter if they die mid-match or at the end? Other than some made-up cutoff point Survivors invented?
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So I'm a Survivor main because I think NOED is unhealthy?
Oh, the MMR aside was meant to demonstrate how it is not fair to the Killer. Since he was obviously outclassed during the trial (ie, less than 5 hooks or 2 kills I would say is being outclassed) then it is certainly not fair to put them up against even more difficult opponents.
Likewise, how well, in your opinion, does NOED work against SWF? In my experience, it doesn't...at all. Because they can and will cleanse those totems. However, Solo players do NOT have that kind of time or coordination. NOED will almost never take out serious SWF players, but it almost always unfairly hits Solo Q players who, let's be real, have it rough already.
I am in favor of changing NOED because of that. I feel it is completely invalidated by having comms, but that it is simultaneously far too strong against Solo Q players. Also, please note how I said change, not nerf.
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I'd just like to interject and say that a lot of people don't care about MMR/results at all.
It's entirely possible that no hook Joe is having the time of his life or just relaxing/having a good time running around and getting bopped.
It's anecdotal, but I usually stream for some pals and chat while playing - I can get 0 hooks or 12 hooks and it's the same deal to me.
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That's fine, I'm merely pointing out what the MMR system is a supposed to do.
If you aren't getting any Kills, you aren't supposed to "rank up". If you end the game with 5 hooks but two Kills due to NOED, you probably aren't really supposed to be going up in MMR and it likely will not be fun for you.
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Why not? If you are good enough to ensure that a killer gets 0 hooks prior to the end game, you clearly had time to do all the totem even if it extended the match to double its length or the ability to find the 1 totem that spawned NOED before they manage to get a kill. To be honest that sounds far more like an overconfidence issue on the survivors end than something to attribute to a perk; the one shot ability should have literally zero effect on final out come.
Survivors have perks that reward failure, why should that be exclusive to that side and not have an equivalent on the killer end?
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Where did I say you were a survivor main? I said 'Survivors have chosen an arbitrary cutoff point; 5 gens, and decided this is a loss for the Killer'. So thanks for putting words in my mouth.
And you are right; SWF makes NoED useless.
But SWF makes 99% of anything Killer useless; the game, at base, is not designed for voice communication. It never was. Survivors are supposed to feel alone, even in a group. They are supposed to have no one to rely on but themselves, and even saving someone else is supposed to be a risk.
The developers flat-out ignore this fact, which part of what causes the gulf between SWF and SoloQ's. And is a large reason why most Killers are Z-Tier.
They should just add voice comms and balance around it. Not ignore the fact that voice comms utterly break the entire premise of the game wide open, and turn Killers & SoloQ's into SWF punching bags.
But back on the topic of NoED; balance HOW?
See, to me, NoED and Dead Hard fill the same role the game is MEANT to have; Information Blackout. Players on both sides have to play around the assumption these perks exist at any given time. Schrodinger's Perks; they both exist & don't exist in a match until observed. Then they collapse into a stable binary of 'Yes they do' or 'No they don't'.
Killers have to assume DH exists & bait it out/refrain from attacking, which buys Survivors precious seconds to get to another pallet. Or they can assume it does not exist, and either be rewarded or punished.
Survivors have to assume NoED exists and spend precious time doing totems, or decide it does not exist, and be either rewarded or punished.
You can't really change either without changing this stable equilibrium. Hell, I wish more perks worked this way; mind games that reward or punish taking risks.
But the devs threw 'Information Blackout' into the garbage disposal with SWFs, since with SWFs came Discord use.
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Honestly, the more I read it, the more I regret trying to use an example that hasn't happened to me.
A more recent example would be this: A good Blight who was running Ruin, Undying and PGTW was absolutely hammering me and my friend. He had 7 hooks by the time the gens were done and 1 Kill. I was death hook, but everyone was healthy. He catches me with NOED and my friend out of position near the gate and I get downed. My friend begins running to the other gate as I get hooked. Blight catches up and manages to interrupt the gate opening by downing the girl on the gate. He gets a 4K.
That's where I usually see NOED come into play. On good Killers in close games.
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I do not share that opinion.
Do you think Solo Q is OP like SWF?
I don't. They need help just as much as Killers do. So whilst it may be fair to tell the 4 man SWF with meta perks to spend 70+ seconds cleansing totems because there might be NOED, I do not believe the same can be said for the Solo Q gamers.
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I would consider this fair. If a surv is worried about NOED he should break all totems.
Also often NOED activates and 20 sec later it is gone.
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I'll admit, it can be hard to know when to use a general example vs an anecdotal example, but either way, you're (the general 'you') probably not pleasing everyone with whatever example/explanation you post on the forums.
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Honestly, all this is teaching me is to use my own examples. Not theoretical ones.
Also, I'm starting up my totem sheet again.
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To be fair, u know what you're getting right away because you know the killer is Mickey/Bubba, we don't know about noed until after gens. That's all I'm saying
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Perhaps.
I'm starting up my totem sheet again in response to this though.
Tracking the Killer, how many totems were cleansed, the map, how many players in my group and the result.
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Once again; you misunderstand. I said SWF was OP, and SoloQ and Killers suffer for it.
I actually said 'SWF makes NoED useless.' and 'They should just add voice comms and balance around it. Not ignore the fact that voice comms utterly break the entire premise of the game wide open, and turn Killers & SoloQ's into SWF punching bags'
So I don't get if either you're not understanding me, or ignoring what I'm saying, because I feel I'm being rather clear.
- SWF breaks the game.
- Voice comms are what cause such a huge gap between SWF and SoloQ's
- They should just add voice comms to the game, so SWF and SoloQ's can communicate together, then balance the entire game around this communication.
As it is; BHVR seems adamant to pretend voice comms are not what breaks the game. They also have a history of being very slow to admit their own screwups, and would rather pretend everything is fine before admitting, and fixing, mistakes. Just look at how damn long it took to fix Struggling on the hook. I remember one Q&A, someone asked 'I have disabilities, and the struggling PHYSICALLY HURTS; will it ever be changed?', and one of BHVR said something like 'No, because we are proud of the struggle system'. Because they thought mashing was an amazing thing they invented, admitting it was flawed was out of the question.
So they are doing the same thing with SWF and voice comms; they are stubbornly ignoring how badly voice comms break the game, to the utter suffering of Killers and SoloQ's. Because adding voice comms would be admitting that they did not think it through when they added SWF.
And BHVR never makes mistakes. 🙄
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The game is only lost when the survivors are out the gate
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It is a strong perk and can push a close game into an advantageous position for a killer or even turn a bad game into a closer one. Just as good perks and the meta can push it into the favor of the survivors. For your story of when NOED took away your escape, I have just as many where DS for instance allowed for a free escape in the end game or a DH that extended the chase causing an additional gen or 2 to pop. Just yesterday they were unhooked, the other 3 were body blocking me trying to prevent me from downing them after I hit them with BT and yet I managed to snipe 2 crows between them to down them near the exit gate, pushed their friends out and was able to pick up just before they left for my 1k (no NOED) and what happened: DS and that 1k turned into a 0k.
Perks are impactful in this game and once again how is this any different than those cases of survivors? Take any of the exhaustion perks, unbreakable, DS, etc. they turn a situation that was bad into a good one. These type of perks come into play at timings where normally you would be at a disadvantage and turns them into an additional chance and/or benefit. That is just part of what makes them good perks and why people pick them.
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That also seems fair. Blight kept good pressure all game with 3 active perks (really 2 since PGTW and Ruin don't work at the same time) and kept you from having time to stop his 4th from activating, then used it to good effect when it did. What exactly is the issue there?
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A lot of complaints about NOED stem from a mistaken belief that if the gens are done the survivors “won”. But there’s a while other minute or two at least left in the match to get another down or two or three, and NOED is simply designed to help during that time frame. There’s nothing cheesy or cheap about having a perk that helps in the last couple minutes of play just like there’s nothing cheesy or cheap about having a perk that helps in the first couple minutes of play.
There’s also a common misconception that if the doors are open the killer is bad. But in reality the game is intentionally designed so that the median results between equally skilled opponents is that 1-3 survivors escape, which means most of the time even if the killer played well that the doors will still probably be open if the survivors played well too. Saying that NOED triggering means the killer played badly ignores the fact that all the gens are completed when killers play well, and in fact all the gens being completed is the rule and not the exception. So having a perk for that post-gen phase of the game is perfectly within the scope of the design.
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It's an interesting point. Sure, NOED can be 'clutch' in the sense that a killer with little-to-no hooks can easily secure a 1k/2k with it, but it's no more clutch than a survivor who should've been downed making it to the next pallet due to Dead Hard, or a whole team removing any map pressure in a matter of seconds due to them running to a corner and using a Boon COH totem.
I agree NOED can be overpowered, but OP perks exist on both sides so it's all or nothing imo. You can't say NOED is unfair whilst DH and Boons exist. NOED can be countered easily by finding the totem, where as Boons are unlimited and snuffing them only wastes time as a survivor will bless a new totem straight away.
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it's same like killer winning a chase with mindgames or simply better playstyle and then survivors reset it with deadhard
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The “just cleanse totems” nonsense argument never made much sense considering that one, unless the survivor brings one specific niche perk they have no way of telling how many totems are left in the trial, and two, totems are hidden in semi-random spots, and unlucky spawns can take upwards of 5 minutes to locate and cleanse on a lot of maps— which is obviously time the survivors don’t have.
I would accept the argument if survivors either knew where totems were and/or knew how many totems were left by default— but at the moment, the argument feels like a poorly veiled defense of a poorly conceived perk. The old Undying was pretty similar to how NOED works. I can’t see why NOED shouldn’t get changed at this point.
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If Survivors had perks or a built-in way to just know where every totem was at the start of a match; NoED would have 0 use. It would never see end game.
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wow it’s almost as if noed is an example of a perk that just is not well designed
Even so, I’m not saying that survivors need— or even should have a way of 100% knowing where every totem is without anything to help, but I am saying that the argument of “just do bones” doesn’t work unless that criteria is met. I think the much better alternative would be to have a basekit totem counter and regulate some of the totem spawns, as some of them are just outrageous places that no one would think of unless they have seen it before.
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What lmao? You can just say that both are unfair (though i am still of the opinion that Dead Hard isn’t even that good). Both NOED and (not Boons in general, just) Circle of Healing should be addressed in the discussion of unfair perks.
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I'm interested to know why you don't think Dead Hard is "even that good."
It'll probably help shed some light on your NOED opinions.
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is this supposed to insinuate that i’m a survivor main or something lol
In short, Sprint Burst does everything Dead Hard does better, especially with the new Vigil.
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No, it helps explain your line of thinking regarding one of the most powerful perks in the game.
Sorry to have bothered you - I'll disengage.
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Okay, that’s my fault. I know my unpopular opinions have gotten me called a survivor main way too many times and it’s just exhausting at this point for me.
But I do actually think that Sprint Burst is just way better at Dead Hard with everything it does.
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NOED would still have a use, which is a bit of a problem with the general approach to discussions around NOED: Its alleged counter is a huge time investment, and is probably comparable in effect to a max stacked Thanatophobia. Including at times when it -isn't- equipped.
It's a big issue I have with the tired old 'do bones' argument. If you try to counter NOED before fifth gen pops, then NOED is either free downs, massive slowdown, or in the worst and probably most common case, both. The only time NOED doesn't get value is if it is found after fifth gen pops, but before the killer can get a down with it.
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So then, what's the correct play? Simply to lose?
I don't believe in putting either side into lose-lose scenarios.
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Dead Hard is a different issue, but I've always argued for changes to it.
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That's literally what happens when you're outplayed all game.
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