Unfair last survivor insta-death on hook
EDIT: im adding a tldr from my last comment since the thread is getting messy.
TLDR:
make phase 1 hook accessible to the last survivor, lasting 10 second and an attempt at escape taking away 4. he still gets 3 attempts, he can fail and die instantly when reaching phase 2, he can succeed and immediatly get hooked again, or he can succeed and manage to survive if he has the right perks.
unhooking yourself is a mechanic that already exists, either make it accessible all the time or delete it from the game.
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Why is it that if you're the last survivor in the game and have 0 hooks, you get instantly killed at first hook? you dont even have that 4% chance of doing something. at the end of the day, if you're the last one either your entire team died, or you were left alone by selfish players, or maybe (as i've had happen to me multiple times) i get downed to protect someone else since im at 0 hooks but they all leave anyway.
"it's a waste of time because even if you unhook, the killer will be camping and you'll die"
not really, as a jeff who runs breakdown, and possibly 3 other hooks gone, i could still have the chance to wiggle off. not to mention the existence of dead hard, decisive strike, unbreakable, and several other game mechanics. the game isnt over at all.
"the killer deserves at least to be guaranteed a kill after all that"
no, not when you arbitrarily decide to change a mechanic for no reason. an already existing one that just randomly doesnt get applied in this circumstance because of the code. honestly it left me confused many times before i realized it was like that, thinking maybe i'd already been hooked once even if it wasnt the case.
besides you can still do this if the last other survivor was killed recently.
once a survivor dies on hook, there's roughly a 15 second animation before the game actually considers him dead, making hatch spawn etc... in this case you can unhook yourself. so why can i do it in this circumstance but not when im alone, just because of terrible coding? (not to mention that this animation problem is an entirely different issue giving free kindred aura reading and denying hatch spawn for the last survivor etc)
it's funny because the insta death isn't even coded to not waste time (another common argument against this), since it just makes you go from hook 1 to 2, then from 2 to death, instead of insta-dying. and also the killer doesnt get to go to lobby until after the 15 second entity animation ends.
and you know what else? in horror media usually a bunch of people die (otherwise it wouldnt be a horror), and if anyone survives at all, it's probably the very last one alive, against terrible odds. so why, in the spirit of horror, cant we attempt a 4% chance that in 99% of games won't change anything, and in the other 1% would give an unexpected and adrenalinic experience for both killer and survivor? end game plays are always the most fun after all.
lastly, if someone were to not attempt unhook in order to be toxic and waste time, you could fix this by:
-*ACTUALLY* making the survivor insta-die at reaching second hook, taking overall not much longer wait time than it takes now.
-making the hook state progress faster, while still keeping the same percentage of progress removed at failed attempt.
-ignoring the fact that it *could* make the players "waste" a few seconds more in the game, when the real time waste is given by lobby times, getting into a match with hackers, joining a game just to be tunneled out in 2 minutes, and all of the other problematic stuff that actually makes you waste time when you play this game. besides, slugging and other accepted game mechanics waste really way more time. and you know what else? if you consider gameplay like this a waste of time you probably should find another game that you enjoy more.
another small lore related point: the entity feeds on survivors' hope right? then why insta kill them at the end. if anything the progress could be faster as previously suggested, as the entity gets more excited while the trial is coming to an end.
I dont know if i should've posted this under suggestions or in general discussions, but i chose the latter since it seems to be kind of an unpopular opinion. i wish BHVR would take this into consideration though, both to remove a mechanic that frustrates me and also to be more coherent since there's mechanics that are way way more situtational and clutch than this one (keys?) and are accepted with no problem.
Comments
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Why are we upset over this? Seriously.
Ok, if you're the last Survivor; you are not getting away. The Killer literally has nowhere else to be. You kobe off the hook? He just smacks you, waits 60 seconds for DS, and puts you back up.
There's literally 0 reasons to let you try kobeing, because you're not getting away. It's a waste of time to do anything but kill the Survivor.
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If you could kobe as the last survivor, the killer will never leave the hook. The moment you try and succeed you’re back on the floor.
DS? Wait 60 extra seconds.
Unbreakable? 1 more smack and you’re down again.
Soul Guard? Make that 2 more smacks.
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Because that thing you said about Jeff having all those extra chance perks is very unlikely to matter to the point where it is not worth pointlessly extending the game.
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The reason is that, almost every time, all that happened was that the killer and survivor would need to wait the entire duration doing nothing for the last survivor to croak.
The outside case where you freed yourself wasn't worth it - because the majority of survivors didn't bother trying. They just made the killer wait it out to be BM.
If you are the only survivor left ingame, and you get hooked - you die. Because even if you got loose, the killer would still catch you and get you again.
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The situations where you could actually escape off of a kobe as the last survivor are so rare and so specific that it’s not worth designing the entire game around it.
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I literally stopped reading after the first line/question.
The answer is so it doesn't waste MY time as the killer.
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How is this even an issue? If you are last alive, killer wont leave your hook anyway. Where would you go and why waste time when match is already decided
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So the killer won't have to care if tgw last one have deliverance of if he's gonna kobe and get the hatch (which is a unfair and skillless mechanic)
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I agree, it should still have a chance.
There are so many perks and good loopers that there is a chance, even when the killer is camping.
He smacks, needs to wait 60 seconds? Well if the exit is next to the hook, you are gone.
If you have dead hard, you can loop again or run to the exit.
Its a waste of time? Maybe for the killer, cause he doesnt get a free hookstate to skip.
There are plenty of cases where it can be worth.
For the perks mentioned above excepted, you can also:
- If the killer forces others out, you can have deliverance
- You get away, before the killer reaches you again
For example.
And for the most part, its not a waste of time, its just more BP for both sides, even if the killers catches again.
No reason to be upset, but i think its quite unfair that someone who outlasted doesnt get a second chance, even if its little.
Funny that you only think about yourself, as a killer.
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It's one of those things where, in a perfect world, a survivor would always try to escape and then either die or get away.
This is not a perfect world, and what most survivors did/would do is simply wait it out to BM the killer.
Want to know how I know this?
How often do survivors just leave the game, and how often do they hang around in the exit gates to teabag?
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Exactly, they wait at the exit gate, ignore the one on hook and get forced leave.
While this person on the hook now has the chance to go away if this happens. But the game forces you out with instant killing you - and it doesnt skip that much, you still need to see the animations as a survivor.
I just think, whats the matter?
If its that easy to hook again, then it doesnt matter for the killer. - Otherwise i just think some fear that they dont get their free kill.
If its that frustrating for the survivor getting insta downed again - then some will not do it anyway and just die.
But give the people a chance who want too.
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"If its that easy to hook again, then it doesnt matter for the killer"
Sure it does. It'd be a pointless waste of time almost every time.
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Because it wouldn't be a 'hook again'.
It would be survivors waiting the time out on hook to be BM, same as they wait out the EOGC collapse in the exit gates to teabag.
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Survivors used to have normal hook states for that final hook. You know what happened 99.99% of the time?
They just struggled on the hook as long as possible to BM the Killer & keep them stuck in the match. They did not escape. They were not on hooks near a gate (and let's face it; if you're final hook; the Killer can carry you away from the gate because no one is around to bodyblock or flashlight save). Every kobe was met with a smack & rehook.
You're asking for the return of a BM mechanic solely for those incredibly niche moments where you have the right perks and the right hook and the gate is open. That's...what? 1 game in 70?
No.
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Make Cyprus Mori basekit and we won't have these worries. Last one alive? Don't need to worry about some pesky hook.
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Im honestly just saddened by these replies because they perfectly reflect the general attitude of this community, and also because 90% are arguing with me about points that i already adressed in the OP, reason why it is a big wall of text. It makes me wonder why you're engaging in the discussion at all if you can't be bothered to read the whole thing.
In general, killers think they're entitled to the kill.
Survivors on the other hand really don't care about surviving, they just want to have their nice little moments where they stun and loop the killers for hours or "outplay" him in whatever way, and if that doesnt happen they're ready to give up and go on to the next game. their only concept of "fun" is at the killer's expense, the more they frustrate him the more fun it is for them.
You guys seem to think that the only way to play this game is by looping around a tile indefinitely, and ignore the fact that you CAN lose the killer, and you CAN run him around for quite a distance if you actually RUN instead of mindlessly going around a loop (which i dont know how you think is engaging or fun gameplay).
Both of these things are what i do despite having several hundred hours of gameplay under my belt, and (for what is worth after the new rank system) being effortlessly iridescent 1.
if everyone played like that, the killer would lose just as much time finding survivors and then losing them repeatedly than being looped until you get downed. it's just as efficient and it's how the game was originally intended to be played until the loop exploit was discovered and made into an integral part of the game.
The only moment i loop is if we're just two survivors and i try to keep him off the last gen while my partner is doing it, or whatever.
But back to my point, which is related. Most of you are under the misconception that if you happen to unhook yourself, you're done for. but guess what, if you have the right perks, you can run the killer around the map while looking for the hatch, or lose him and try to open an exit gate. it's really that simple. but since this gameplay aspect doesn't even cross your mind, stuck in the conviction that the only thing you can do is run around the same spot while others do objectives, you don't consider the notion that im presenting in my OP.
Again, i cannot stress this enough, your points about the hook state being used to BM have already been adressed in the original post with several easy solutions that i proposed.
Personally i only run breakdown, and with 3 other hooks down by the death of other survivor it is a guaranteed wiggle in most cases. i just proposed other EXAMPLES of perks that would make it so that it's not necessarily game over if you unhook yourself.
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It literally does not matter which perk build you use. The ratio of "still gonna die" to "will actually escape" will still be so heavily in the former's favor that it is not worth the additional time waste (and that is not factoring in the BM time waste with just staying on hook, which I didn't even consider until someone else brought it up).
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"But back to my point, which is related. Most of you are under the misconception that if you happen to unhook yourself, you're done for. but guess what, if you have the right perks, you can run the killer around the map while looking for the hatch, or lose him and try to open an exit gate. it's really that simple. but since this gameplay aspect doesn't even cross your mind, stuck in the conviction that the only thing you can do is run around the same spot while others do objectives, you don't consider the notion that im presenting in my OP."
You seem to be forgetting that killers currently leave the hook because they know the survivor is dead, no matter what. If there's even the slightest of chances that the survivor could escape, you'll see killers facecamp you 'till death. Is that what you want? Doubt it.
You appear to have missed my post about potential perks here too.
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That's not true at all. Consider a scenario where you've just been hooked, and the killer chases everyone out of the gates at the other side of the map. You still deserve the kobe attempts.
Also, plenty of killers leave to look for the hatch (I do).
You can't state with absolute certainty that every kobe will result in death.
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A horror movie fact check (that serves no real purpose).
“in horror media usually a bunch of people die (otherwise it wouldnt be a horror),”
I’m pretty sure no one dies in:
The Conjuring
Poltergeist
Signs
The Others
1408
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You can kobe in that scenario before everyone else leaves.
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You should also be able to afterwards too. The point being that you can't state arbitrarily there's no point even being granted the attempt.
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Why wouldn't you be trying to get off the hook before they leave, while he's still distracted chasing them?
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There is no point. If you had that option, Killers wouldn't chase Survivors to the opposite end of the map to let you safely kobe.
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Because if the killer is still close by, they can still down you ASAP. At least if you wait until there's significant distance, you have a better chance of evading and escaping.
Again, the point is being missed... you still deserve the attempt. It's not over yet.
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Then you kobe while he is chasing the other Survivors.
Why? At that point, after the Survivors have left, the Killer has 0 goals but to camp you. What purpose would you have to wait until they leave to attempt the kobe?
Once again; you're pointing to an incredibly fringe event, and one that you brought upon yourself by waiting, at that, and saying 'Bring back the BM for this one scenario that barely happens, if ever.'
No.
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Your friends left you to die. Going by your OP, if we are supposed to treat this like a movie, it's the end of saw, where the doctor is screaming as jigsaw slams the door shut.
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Why? At that point, after the Survivors have left, the Killer has 0 goals but to camp you. What purpose would you have to wait until they leave to attempt the kobe?
The killer still has to make their way back, assuming they don't go on a detour to search for the hatch.
And it's not just one scenario, there's plenty!
Imagine being downed and hooked near the gate, and you've still got DS. It's completely possible that you could kobe, and even if you're downed before you make it out, DS (as much as I hate it in this scenario) would still grant you an escape
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These scenarios are still fringe enough that it is not worth the time waste.
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Oh boy, it's the weekly "I had 15 second chance perks and everyone was dead and I got hooked, but I should still be allowed to use them all to irritate the killer for over a minute!"
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I will say it again; Your scenarios are FRINGE CASES.
Your complaint is, literally, how hooks worked. And 99% of the time, it was just 1 Survivor staying on the hook for 2 minutes to prevent the Killer from leaving the match. Not amazing escapes. Not kobes. Not being hooked near the open door with DS.
Once again; you're acting like your fringe cases happen every match. The developers saw otherwise, and changed the mechanic so Killers are not forced to camp for 2 minutes.
The killer still has to make their way back, assuming they don't go on a detour to search for the hatch.
If I have you alone on a hook, and there's a chance you will get free; I'm not detouring for the hatch. I'm heading right to you until you hit Stage 2 & can't escape anymore.
Once again; you're throwing 'what if' scenarios out there that will not happen.
Source: Back when Survivors COULD kobe as the last Survivor; Killers camped them. They did not hunt for hatch until Survivors hit Stage 2. Because most Killers are not stupid enough to leave the FINAL HOOK unattended for a kobe.
And, now that I remember it, that lead to Survivors never attempting kobe in Stage one (to delay the match as long as possible), and then avoiding Struggle in Phase 2 (to prevent the Killer from getting more BP breaking pallets). It was nothing but BM.
It's. Not. Coming. Back.
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I didnt miss your post, and my reply still applies to what you said, but i'll try to respond specifically to what you said so you can understand better.
Let's say the killer doesn't leave the hook. i succeed that 4%, i get instantly downed, then one of the following happens:
he picks me up: i ds then proceed to
1)run to the nearest open exit gate.
2)run hoping to come across hatch.
3)run, hide, and lose him. this gets you into the typical 1v1 endgame situation.
4) die.
he doesnt pick me up: (maybe he expects a dead strike, maybe there's no hook nearby because of breakdown.)
1)i crawl to the nearest open exit gate.
2)i soul guard, tank the hit, then run and hide / run and find hatch / run to nearby exit gate, whatever.
3) die.
The dichotomy between picking or not picking up the survivor is already in itself a mind game and a gameplay mechanic, since the killer has no way of knowing what perks you have. does he risk the deadstrike? does he risk you crawling near the exit gate then getting up with soul guard?
sure, the chances are slim. in most cases you will just get re-hooked and die, losing a precious 15 more seconds of your life that would still be gained if they applied quality of life changes to the animation issues that i brought up in the original post, where you waste time looking at all these struggle animations.
by this logic, if there's 4 gens to do and just two survivors on death hook left, the game should randomly execute one of them so the match can proceed, since it's unrealistic that they're both getting out. where do we draw the line between what's not possible and what is? why does the game decide for us when to give up or not?
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Because it already worked the other way, and your little scenarios were FRINGE CASES.
99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the time; Survivors died on hook after delaying the game. Or they got off, got downed, and were slugged until they could be picked up again.
Asking for a return to 'Delay the Killer' EVERY DAMN MATCH for events that will happen 1 in 100 matches Is. Not. Happening!
All this thread is is 'This is unfair to me. Make it unfair for the Killer again!'
No. It's not happening. It already worked this way, devs decided it sucked. The end.
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I'm not gonna waste the time to argue this point by point.
What I will say is that the current design of DBD places an emphasis on survivors helping each other until helping is no longer a viable option. If the killer is able to push survivors to the point where they either exit the trial or risk going down, then it is no longer viable to help someone else out. You're not going to really gain much of anything for going out your way to help, but getting hooked could be the difference between gaining and losing a pip. This is a cooperative game, but not a true team game. If you get hooked and the cost to someone else is greater than the reward for unhooking you then 9 times out of 10 you're just dead anyway.
You doing some dramatic Kobe won't do much to change that because you're likely going back down only for the entity to just kill you herself in EGC. It's that simple.
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Yes
Post edited by C3Tooth on2 -
It must be the third time i say this, but i already proposed several very easily applicable solutions to prevent BM that everyone just decided to ignore in order to make their strawman argument seem more sound.
Let me explain it again. you get hooked and you dont attempt to free yourself? the progress bar goes extremely fast until you reach hook state 2 ,then you die instantly, like it already is.
you decide to try the 4%? you still get the 3 attempts, leaving the % regression penalty unaltered despite the faster progression rate of the sacrifice.
Other people are just arguing against dead strike and the perks i used as an example, completely missing the point. if you have a problem against these perks or the mechanics in the game, that's fine. but that's another issue. as long as they're in the game to be used, i don't see a reason why the developers can decide when you can and can't use them on a whim.
Other people are complaining that people can struggle on phase 2 to waste time. again, i never proposed that you should be able to do that, i just think you should still be able to interact during PHASE 1 not PHASE 2. if you reach phase 2, you die instantly, simple!
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First set of scenarios won't happen. Killers will learn not to pick you up on the off-chance of you having DS, meaning that unless you were right at the gate already, you won't get there anyway. Exactly that will also become a scenario killers will learn to avoid if at all possible. They'll just hook you further away. They'll try to eliminate the risk entirely, or make it as small as feasibly possible. Hell, you might even be left on the ground and the killer will just look for the hatch and close it then and there. I've done it.
Also, DS doesn't get you far enough for the killer to completely lose you. You are their one and only goal. If they do lose you, that's just bad play.
You have to understand what this looks/feels like when playing killer. The killer did everything right. They got you on that hook, and for all intents and purposes, the match has ended. Maybe you are their only kill, maybe their last one to a 4k. With what you're proposing there's always the chance that they can't even be satisfied with that. Because of that slight chance that the survivor just gets out anyway. And why? Because they got lucky. Dumb luck, combined with a myriad of second chance perks. Surely you understand that they will feel robbed, yeah?
Is it fair? Not exactly. At some point fairness is a fool's errand, though.
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Oh boy! So now Survivors make an attempt, wait until the struggle bar starts speeding up, make ANOTHER attempt to slow it down, wait for it to speed up, and make their third attempt.
Once again; it brings back BMing for fringe cases of escape that probably happen to 10 people a day across all the player base, while giving Survivors a way to delay the game & spite the Killer.
And it's not a 'strawman' to point out the flaws in your idea that literally existed in the past of the game. So try to get your fallacies straight.
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how many second chances do you need
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We draw the line where it is currently drawn because randomly executing one of the last two Survivors doesn't make sense when all players have agency in deciding who is one to survive longer.
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just make me wait. At least then I can try to get off, and get struggle bp.
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So you want them to completly change how hook progression works just so you can 11,5% of the time kobe into the killers face and die anyway?
It used to be that you could kobe as last survivor. It was changed for a reason.
I say if you are the last survivor left and never got hooked you don't deserve another chance most of the time. You should have taken agression earlier so all the other survivors didn't die while you stayed away from the killer all match.
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BM mechanic lol what. back in the day i just wanted those extra bloodpoints baby
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Lol, fair enough, but even the devs felt the game was being dragged on for little to no gain and very little chance of escape.
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I am too lazy to read it, so I will just same thing as I did last time someone posted about this.
Basically, there is not point to it. You will just make lost game longer. Even if you kobe, killer will just down you and wait 60 seconds. But most survivors would be petty ######### and just waited till last moment for 1 attempt to waste as much time as possible.
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Everyone saying "You cant do anything anyway so might as well die" are full of crap.
He can: Be hooked when the gates are open and the other ones are dead/or left, unhook himself with deliverance and use DS and escape. This is just one simple example of what the survivor can do if they were able to still try to kobe/kobe while being the last one alive and first hook.
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Once again; niche:
- The Killer would have to hook him near the gate. If the gate was opened first; not happening.
- The Survivor would have to be within 1 minute's crawling distance of the gate or hatch, since a Killer could wait out DS. And even walk ahead of a DS Survivor to close the Hatch while they are down.
- Some Killers are good enough in a chase that they could eat DS and just down the Survivor again after. Moreso if only 1 gate is open and/or they closed the hatch, as they know where the Survivor has to go.
Your examples are incredibly uncommon and not worth bringing back 2 minute wait times for killers. This has all been said in this thread before, but you ignored everything to attack ONE point. You're wrong. Your examples are uncommon. It's not coming back.
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Just because it's uncommon or niche doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
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We are not saying it doesn't exist. We are saying it's not worth 2 extra minutes doing nothing every single match for the few times this happens.
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Yea, it's not worth it for you. For someone who uses deliverance or gets the 4% is well worth it.
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