General Discussions
General Discussions
Seeing your skill improve is not "toxic elitism"
If SBMM really is based on skill like the devs say it is then making it visible to see your skill improve is not toxic. Almost every game ever that has a system in place that ranks your skill doesn't hide it. It's visible so you can see your skill improve, how much skill you actually have, and to see if the system is actually functioning or not.
If SBMM is inherently toxic why do they rank your skill and have fair matchmaking in the first place? It makes no sense.
Comments
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The thing im more pissed off about is how they tried to sell the fact that sbmm is truly skill based. Like sure those 2 survivors that pre drop every pallet and run into you at every loop and do nothing but gen jockey while the 2 skilled players actually keep the killer busy so they escape means they obviously gained skill.
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If you're gonna force MMR on us, you have to let us interact with it.
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I think most people would like to see their own MMR.
Seeing everyone's MMR...I think that would be interesting, but also lead to a lot of nastiness.
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The whole comparison he made with sports falls apart the moment a facecamping leatherface is considered. He has to do literally nothing but win 1 chase to confirm a kill. Imagine a football player kicking the ball once and being guaranteed a goal, and then being told he's good, while the opposing team gets told they lost the entire game when they lost control of the ball for a second.
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I think what could be considered toxic elitism from having your MMR revealed is the scenario where people with higher mmr starts to dismiss or disregard the opinions of people with less mmr because only the opinions those with higher mmr should be considered valid.
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There was toxic elitism with the old matchmaking ranks where most people agreed that it didn't resemble skill at all.
Been a while but i remember people posting pics about their matches and getting completly shot down cause they were "only" green rank.
"Get to red rank and then you can talk"
Even today almost every time somebody wants to say something they feel the need to add "i am a high mmr player" even though they can't really know to enforce what they are saying.
So in a general sense I disagree. Having your mmr visible will definitely increase that elitisme.
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That clearly isn't what they meant by that and I have to believe you know it.
Simply wanting to see your skill improve isn't "toxic elitism", but having MMR be visible would lead to exactly what it leads to in other competitive games; those low on the ladder being excluded from conversations and told that their opinions don't matter. It already happens now and seeing MMR would make it worse.
Even if you want MMR to be visible it'll have to be with this in mind.
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Won't show MMR because it'll lead to toxic elitism when players are using "I'm high MMR" as argument anyway without proof. 😂
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It'd be nice to have the honest answers out there;
"Your MMR is going to stay hidden, because as long as it is you can't post a screenshot that shows how unbalanced your match was, and we can continue this narrative that it's working brilliantly."
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That happens regardless of it you see it or not. You see people make posts all day long about how they're in high MMR and they're opinion matters more. It literally changes nothing, all they're doing by making MMR invisible is taking away your ability to see your skill and improvement.
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That is irrelevant to the point, which is that the explanation given is not about seeing your skill improve.
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As I just said that's all seeing your MMR is about now, people already assume everything. It wasn't even a problem back when grades were your actual rank, it happened but it happens in literally every other game too.
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You're arguing a different point now. Your post is saying "wanting to see your skill improve is not toxic", implying that the quote in the stream was about wanting to see your skill improve. It's not. That isn't what they're talking about.
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Yes but you aren't getting the point. The point of the post is that by making your MMR invisible and calling wanting to know your MMR "toxic elitism" it makes 95% of the reason you want to see your MMR invalid because it's "toxic" to want to know your MMR.
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I normally feel mmr is fine hidden, but in this game, people prefer to derank and DON'T want to be high mmr. Showing it might actually be an incentive to play out the matches and encourage killers to want to camp and tunnel to actually prove they are better than your average schmuck.
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Yes, this too. The system in place actively incentivizes you to lose because why should you care what your MMR is, you can't see it. But that's a different argument.
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"...calling wanting to know your MMR "toxic elitism"..."
They are not saying that. They are saying that a side effect of people seeing their MMR would be an increase in toxic elitism. They are not calling the desire to see your skill improve toxic elitism itself. Let's not forget that they did also mention a desire to help their more competitively-minded players track their skill better than the grade system allows.
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I agree.
His hockey should be more:
Killer:
Takedown = shot on goal
Hook/Mori = Scoring a goal
Survivor:
Healing / Looping / Gens + escape = gaining some mmr
It is honestly a double standard.
Perhaps the SBMM does work. But then again, mmr fluctuates in spikes.
mmr is not skill.
Skillwise I dont think matches are actually balanced
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So you're saying people will be toxic about it whether they can see it or not? At that point let people see it so they can see their improvement because currently you can't. Let alone every other argument for why you should be able to see it. Any game that compares skill is going to have toxic players, I'm sorry but that's how it is. It's not an excuse to hide it from people when 95% of the reason they want to see it is to see how good they actually are.
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They seem to have a very different idea of skill than us anyway.
A facecamping Bubba who gets 3 Kills has more skill than a Nurse who 2K's with 10 hooks.
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Largely irrelevant to the point being made here, but thanks all the same, I suppose.
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Well this is a completely different argument but what should a 2K be classified as? A killer win? How, 2 people got out. At some point you have to make a hard win condition, you can't base it all on hooks because at that point you could have 8 hooks with 4 escapes be a tie or something and that doesn't make any sense, how is 4 people escaping a tie?
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I disagree.
The idea is that people want to see their 'skill level (MMR)'. I am saying that because most people's definition of skill is so different than BHVR's, there's not much of a point.
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I'm saying they will be more toxic when it's shown. Again in the past people actually asked for a picture of your rank when you said something. That happened on these forums about the ranks this same forum mostly agreed were pointless.
Every game that compares skill is going to have toxic players. That's indeed how it is
And sadly while yes 95% of the reasons might be well intended it wouldn't be the first time the 5% of the ones who aren't ruin it for the rest. That's unfortunatly also just the way it is.
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No, the idea of the point being made here is that the dev in the QnA stream called wanting to know your MMR "toxic elitism". That's the thing I'm responding to.
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"And sadly while yes 95% of the reasons might be well intended it wouldn't be the first time the 5% of the ones who aren't ruin it for the rest. That's unfortunatly also just the way it is."
This is the point of the post. To say that they shouldn't hide the MMR because it's "toxic elitism", it's not. It's a really bad argument for why they want to hide it.
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Wanting to know your MMR isn't toxic elitism.
Making it visible will almost certainly lead to more toxic elitism though.
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That is both my point, and what the quote being discussed here was actually talking about.
It's also what OP was misconstruing.
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I disagree it's a bad argument.
I really don't want to go back to the olde days of the forums where people asked for a picture of where they stood in the game before wanting to take someones opinion seriously.
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Well maybe you joined before 2019 because I started lurking in 2019 and posting in 2020. I never saw anybody say "send a pic of your rank". What I did see is people say "oh you're not in red rank so your opinion matters less" but I STILL see people say "I'm in high MMR blah, blah, blah, I have more authority". It never goes away. Just the fact that the game compares skills at all will make people say "I know I'm a good player so I know what I'm talking about". Should they take away fair matchmaking altogether because it creates toxic elitism?
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That dev response was absurdly out of touch. The problem they're trying to avoid (toxic elitism) is literally what we have now *because* the MMR is hidden. Every player that loses games is at "high MMR" and is thus immune to constructive criticism as to how they can improve. Players have no idea where their skillset is relative to the high or low end. They assume they're near the cap and everyone else must be below them if they're not struggling. Again, super out of touch.
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Why should people who don’t know the game have a voice? It would be like asking me about how to design and construct a building. People who don’t put in time to learn the game don’t deserve a voice.
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The problem there is that you're assuming a hard causal link between "low MMR" and "no idea what they're talking about".
The ability to analyse a game is completely, entirely separate from the ability to play it. You can be good at one and not the other- there's a slight correlation between the two, but it's nowhere near something you can assume just from seeing someone's MMR.
Also, y'know, the experiences of lower-rank players are still valid and it's still worth knowing what they struggle with so that it can be determined whether the teaching tools in the game need improving, if something actually does need to be changed, or if they just need to learn the right strats and counters.
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I'll just say that in my opinion most games should be balanced around the higher level of play. In something like Tekken you're gonna get destroyed over and over and that's because the game isn't balanced around the average player or the lower skill level player. But it feels good to grind and eventually get good at the game, it's more healthy when it's balanced around the top level. I don't think it's inherently bad that a newer player would struggle because at some point you have to learn the game and get good at it to where you actually realize the real balance of the game.
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BHVR doesn’t give teaching tools. They buff and nerf for people who can’t play.
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Thank you for showing the exact reason why this isn't a bad argument against not showing mmr
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I don't want to see it, but I want some kind of sign that I am getting better at the game. Right now you can play 1000 of matches and you will still play the same game of the same difficulty, cause of how MMR works, without any actual feedback from the like "hey, you're doing pretty good"
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I disagree. Game balance requires making sure the game is fair for all levels of play. Now, that might mean that some things are very strong and annoying against new players, but as long as they have something to learn to help them out, it'll be fair.
You can't just ignore newer or less skilled players because given enough time, that means you won't have any newer players.
Loading tips, tutorial, in-game glossary, perk descriptions with rundowns on status effects, HUD elements that give consistent information as to what's happening...
What was your point again?
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They said one of if the reasons it's hidden is because some players get discouraged when the number goes down lol
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And yet not a single tip on running tiles, using pallets, or running early. Those are all basic mechanics. The game should have a tutorial that teaches these things. It should also have practice against killer powers
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Yeah, sure, the teaching tools could be better. Your point wasn't that the teaching tools are subpar, or that they need improvement- it was that they don't exist, and that BHVR balances solely around totally new players.
Neither of those things are true, and pivoting to something else entirely doesn't make them so.
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Telling the survivor to do a gen and open the gate doesn’t count as a tutorial. Some of the perk descriptions are also extremely unclear. My point still stands.
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Protecting a bad player’s fragile ego shouldn’t factor into that decision.
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It's more of a tutorial than some other games get. The art of a good tutorial is one that very, very few developers know, and DBD's tutorial is - at least now that they've added the bot tutorial - solidly adequate.
Which isn't even relevant, because countering your point only requires mentioning that it exists.
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Low MMR
BHVR: you are not a loser, you are the last winner (George Carlin - You're a loser)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFN3CtcYs0Q&ab_channel=samah
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Why does a dev team that thinks tbagging and clicking are an integral part of the gaming experience care at all about toxic elitism? Why do they not care about survivor specific toxicity?
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you already have that with hours, ranks and even amount of killers.
I've had a 150 hour survivor tell me that going for me wasnt gonna work out. The guy had 0 hooks, everyone else was hooked 3 times. He could have tanked at least 1 hookstate and save a teammate.
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There are still ways to handle this. For example, I would like to know how I rank MMR wise amongst my own killers. Who has the highest MMR and who has the lowest? I would also like to know which killer I improved the most with. So every rank reset if I got a message that said, good job! Your MMR with Billy increased the most/ decreased the least out of all your killers!
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This is already the case. Note how many discussions have qualifiers of 'high MMR' status to bolster their own argument or dismiss another.
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Also, higher rank survivors already act all condescending to players with a lower rank in a post-game chat, up to the point I've seen comments like "why does this lower rank trash exist" or keep calling low ranks "dogs". So, yes, people don't deserve to flash their MMR until they learn to behave.
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