Survive With Friends/Solo

milo77727

Survive with friends needs nothing more of a nerf than just marking the groups.

Yes I am a survivor main let the hate roll in.

I've noticed on a lot of these discussions it's either killers complaining about swf being overpowered or survivors complaining about killers being overpowered.

If the dev's were to separate swf and solos or nerf swf then they would lose players. People would want to play less because it no longer becomes fun. Swf groups would have harder times finding lobbies and what happens if you have a team of 3? Do you only play with 3 people since solo is somewhere else? Killers would be waiting for lobbies more too since survivors like to play in groups a lot. There would be more killers in solo and more survivors in swf making the lobbies longer than need be.

If killers were to see survivor auras then it promotes tunneling and camping. Killers can easily locate injured. Distractions to unhook or cleave totems now become useless. Teamwork becomes eliminated to the point the game is useless to players.

As someone who also plays killer I'm happy when I go against survive with friends because I know they are the people that will help me improve as killer. If I cant go against them then I need to improve. I dont justify losing as them having an advantage even if they do. I'm not going to win every game as killer and I'm not going to lose every game as killer either.

As a survivor who plays in swf groups I can honestly say we lose as many games as we play despite having two ranked one survivors. We arent as OP as killers tend to think.

I can understand marking groups but anything more only ruins the game for either everyone or just survivors.

And let the hate begin.

Aerys

As you might've read in the other thread I disagree with the aura showing idea, it'd be too game breaking since there are several perks based on it already. I also don't think separating SWF's into a queue of their own would be a good idea, it'd cause a lot of people to quit the game entirely due to long queue times. Marking the groups should however be done, it's a very simple thing to add and it does mean a lot for Killers.

I'm unsure what level of gameplay you're playing at as either a Survivor or Killer, but at Rank one SWF's dominate. I understand that your group doesn't, and I know my group certainly doesn't as all three of us are Killer mains, but I've played against my fair share of SWF's at rank one to know how powerful they can be, communication in this game is extremely powerful and like I said before, there are a lot of perks that help do so themselves. Not needing to bring those perks but still having their benefit is where SWF's thrive, they have information they shouldn't have due to voice chat, and this allows them to stomp their competition.

As with a lot of balance issues in the game, I think that if the Devs first focus on creating additional objectives that extend game time properly, thus negating Gen Rushing and games that last all of five to ten minutes due to it, SWF groups will also balance out a bit as well. Even so, one can't just say they don't have any advantage, communication is a massive advantage, so a scaling debuff of some kind, one that takes into account the rank of the SWF and the party size of the SWF, should be created at some point.

milo77727

Aerys said:

As you might've read in the other thread I disagree with the aura showing idea, it'd be too game breaking since there are several perks based on it already. I also don't think separating SWF's into a queue of their own would be a good idea, it'd cause a lot of people to quit the game entirely due to long queue times. Marking the groups should however be done, it's a very simple thing to add and it does mean a lot for Killers.

I'm unsure what level of gameplay you're playing at as either a Survivor or Killer, but at Rank one SWF's dominate. I understand that your group doesn't, and I know my group certainly doesn't as all three of us are Killer mains, but I've played against my fair share of SWF's at rank one to know how powerful they can be, communication in this game is extremely powerful and like I said before, there are a lot of perks that help do so themselves. Not needing to bring those perks but still having their benefit is where SWF's thrive, they have information they shouldn't have due to voice chat, and this allows them to stomp their competition.

As with a lot of balance issues in the game, I think that if the Devs first focus on creating additional objectives that extend game time properly, thus negating Gen Rushing and games that last all of five to ten minutes due to it, SWF groups will also balance out a bit as well. Even so, one can't just say they don't have any advantage, communication is a massive advantage, so a scaling debuff of some kind, one that takes into account the rank of the SWF and the party size of the SWF, should be created at some point.

Swf do have a certain amount of advantages however one simple fix for one of those advantages is removed players abilities to see killer perks until after everyone has died. That gets rid of information you should not know in the game regardless. Devs know there is no getting rid of team chat for players and they are going to do it anyway.

I usually play with two rank 1 survivors and a rank 4 as a rank 5.

Aerys

@milo77727
Well, if you guys aren't all running leader, sabotage, and toolboxes, you aren't doing the 4-man SWF right xD I've been hit with so many people who will Gen rush to the max as well as get hooks to 99% complete and then finish the sabotage as I walk up to it with a person in my arms. They become rather untouchable, but eh it could be due to my lack of skill and choice in Killers idk.

I do quite like your idea to hide the Killer's perk info from the group if one of them dies though, that's very smart and I would love that to be the case as it invalidates things like NOED if they can know ahead of time and cleanse totems prior to finish gens (which should be done anyhow but eh). Even so I still think some sort of debuff should be added in a scaling fashion for higher ranked and larger grouped SWF's, at least until the Devs add additional objectives to the game.

milo77727

Problem is you cant nerf swf without is affecting solo players. In a four person group it wont show as much but for anything less it puts the randoms at a disadvantage.

We usually only gen rush or 99 hooks if we want to be random. The two rank 1 plays like running the killer around distracting and saving. I usually rush gens and only get involved with the killer when absolutely needed. We have a bunch of other friends who do everything.
We dont like to play one style of game because we find those dont usually work out. We find because of our play style leader and saboteur become almost useless. We all use different perks for our role and most of the time if we dont win we at least had a good game.
If survive with friends is only about winning then I want no part of it. Punishing groups there to play is kind of a turn off of a game to me. Objectives would be a great way of making it more difficult for swf but again solo becomes harder too.

No matter what the end result is it will become harder for solo or killer.
Killer by doing nothing and solo by doing something outside of lobby changes.

Aerys

I'm not sure adding additional objectives would necessarily make it harder on solo players over SWF players. I had an idea for instance wherein each Generator has a key (We can colour code them if desired). There are 7 Generators, each one a colour of the raaaainbow, and each one has a matching coloured key hidden somewhere in the map (Similar to how Totems are hidden... so not well?). Only one exists of each and so Survivors will need to seek them out and unlock the Generators to begin doing them. This adds a sort of pre-game phase in which the Killer can still have his chase time and such while the Survivors sneakily search for keys. Now, to avoid griefing you could have it set up so that each key can be picked up four times by each Survivor, but what if a SWF could only pick one up between the whole group? This would mean that Billy who picked up the Blue Key HAS to unlock the Blue Generator. It also means that if you're a Duo SWF only one of you can pick up a key, but the randoms can still grab one each as well.

I dunno, one idea of an Additional Objective that also puts the breaks on SWF groups at the same time while simultaneously being fun (at least I think so).

milo77727

That means generators cant be done because only a certain amount of keys can be picked up. Either random has to do more work and unlock more keys or if they die you cant do any more gens then the keys you are allowed.
Your two survivors can unlock 1 gen and the two randoms can unlock 1 gen each. That's still 2 gens that need done that cant be because no one can pick up a gen. That also means if someone cant find a key then that generator cannot be done. On the map there is 7 gens and if killer is camping a couple the survivors should be able to work on another without having to scour the map to find a key that could be near the killer. It halts the game more than the reverse beartraps do and would be a very difficult thing to win a match against. I agree something can be in place but that may be a little too much. If someone dies with the blue key then the blue gen can never be done. If 3 people died with the keys then hatch standoff is only option because the survivor cant do the last gen.
How about a power source. Once generators are completed there are 2-3 spots on the map that you must repair before the door can be open. Almost like a power switch. Generators give the power but the switches need to be flipped to allow players power to the gates. Only 1-2 need to be done (to prevent camping for the switch) and you need a part found in things similar to chests. Players can search boxes scattered across the map to find the piece. The boxes can hold other things like a flashlight or nothing at all. It's kind of your idea without it affecting solo players and extends the game.
Thoughts or concerns?

Aerys

What, maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. If they're a solo player they can pick up a copy of every coloured key and unlock any gen, unlocking would simply be one skill check and then it's unlocked for everyone and that key vanishes, both on the map and from the people holding it, idk it could be a little UI element that has each key in a rainbow, once a generator has been unlocked with that colour the key would just have an X overtop of it or somethin'. I was in no way saying that you can only work on a generator if you have the key of its colour and that only one person can hold onto any key at one point in time, only that SWF's do and have to coordinate better, which they can do because they're using voice chat. If someone were to die with the key in a 4-man SWF group, someone else could either obtain it from walking over the hook they died at and collecting it or going to where it originally was and grabbing it from there.

milo77727

I understood the first part mostly. I still see the issue that swf can only have one key each making it impossible to do gens if it's a four man. I get the everyone can work as soon as its unlocked.
It would also be difficult for solo if someone has a key and dies then the other players have no idea that key is there and are looking around everywhere else.
How about your idea but only 4-5 gens? That way gens can still be done but you have to find keys to finish the last 2-3 gens. Theres not as much concern for solo survivors to find all the keys and the game can still be stalled. Hatch can also happen in worst case scenarios of not finding keys and do the gens quick enough.

Aerys

Well, again copies of each key can be picked up from wherever they spawn until the key is used to unlock a Generator, so in the event of a solo player not knowing where they key is upon someone dying they actually have two places they can then obtain it, from the body of that person (along with any other keys they might not have had) and from the original spawn point of the key in question. I think you're misunderstanding the one key each point though, what I meant by that is that only one of them can have any specific coloured key. So your two rank 1 friends might have Red and Orange between them, your rank 4 friend might have found Yellow and Green both, and you might have Blue, Indigo, and Violet. So basically, two people would be carrying one key each, one person would have two keys on them, and the last would have three keys on them. None of you can grab the same coloured key from the spawn, thus you need to coordinate as to where that coloured Gen is and get the right person to it.

Obviously this would take some balancing to get right, but the idea itself with 7 Generators would serve the intended purpose; Force Survivors to sneak and scour the map and extend the game by a bit while they do so.

milo77727

Ok. That makes more sense now. I was understanding it as each player could only hold 1 key and swf could only grab 1 key per game. I feel like that's something Franklin's shouldn't be able to influence. Otherwise keys will never be done and every killer would run is for how OP it would become. Instead a perk could be added allowing the killer to get an auditory alert when a key has activated a generator. And for survivors small game could work for keys as well.

Aerys

Yeah, small game would become a lot more viable if so x3 and I'm not saying keys have to be like the Item key, or Items at all, you would pick one up but it wouldn't be held in place of an item, just on your person.

Whispers23

SWF has nothing to do with improving your killer. You can't improve if the game is unbalanced. When a killer puts a trap and one sees it, everyone will know its location. If a killer starts chasing one, the rest will know he is chasing and will keep working on gens. SWF will choose their perks and add ons together.

milo77727

Whispers23 said:

SWF has nothing to do with improving your killer. You can't improve if the game is unbalanced. When a killer puts a trap and one sees it, everyone will know its location. If a killer starts chasing one, the rest will know he is chasing and will keep working on gens. SWF will choose their perks and add ons together.

As a swf main I can truthfully say the only time we base our perks or addons on each other is when we are bored or exchanging items we dont want. It improves killer by learning how to play in less than ideal situations. Think like a swf group and dont fall for their tricks they use.
If you feel something in life is hard or unfair are you just going to give up? Take it as a lesson and maybe you wont fail as much as you think you do.
Swf cant communicate everything at all times and a lot of the time that is their weakness. (Also their strength) Play spontaneously and dont do the same things every time. An unbalanced game is what it is. There will never be a completely balanced game that makes everyone happy. It's impossible. If you cant learn to play in an unbalanced game then you wont be able to no matter the changes that come.

darktrix

It is appealing to make SWF non-ranked...they can join rank matches but don't gets or lose pips like solos or killers would. However, most suggested solutions get complicated because not all SWF are 4 man. Sometimes you need solos to fill gaps. If you had just different queues for SWF and solo, less than 4 man might never get filled and I have my doubts there are enough solos to go around for their own queue.

Stealth

So you're against an option to filter out SWF but you're for marking them so killers can just leave if they want? Isn't that basically a non-streamlined filter?

Also you said "Swf cant communicate everything at all times and a lot of the time that is their weakness." In what way can that be a weakness? Solo's literally can't communicate anything so being able to communicate things like, "He's on me, do gens", "He's headed to Mike, John come unhook me" etc is a straight up advantage. I'm not buying the justification that killers should play against swf to get better. You can't have a game that's balanced with comms and without. It's balanced for one and not the other. Since SWF is a thing, they might as well open up comms and text chat for everyone and rebalance the game around that.

milo77727

I can agree with the everyone getting chat as a way to balance it. However that would upset killers who dont like swf already. Now everyone would be swf and make it harder. A lot of times survivors dont mention a trap or stop being chased and dont tell the group. It's the things they forget to mention that get the others killed. (It happens a lot)
It is like an unofficial filter however it would cause less problems with lobby times and I know a lot of killers who play swf because they dont want to reload a lobby.
A filter would cause longer wait times for killers with the it on and for swf groups as well.
If theres a balanced solution to make both sides happy and not cause more problems I am all good hearing the suggestion but at this second the only thing I can think of that wont do that is to mark swf and maybe limit items.
2swf: No addons
3swf: No green or higher items
4swf: No yellow or higher items

In a way this also nerfs flashlights. 4swf wouldnt be able to bring any flashlights in for pallet blinds or flashlight saves. Yellow flashlights dont do much anyway. It also stops serious genrushing and instant heals.
It limits a survivors toxicity in swf while also prevents serious disadvantages for solo players that may be in the match.
Questions or concerns?