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Is Circle of Healing bad for DBD?
I put a post up recently asking players, Why aren't you playing Killer?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/311637/why-arnt-you-playing-killer#latest
And something I have noticed is a lot of comments being aimed negatively at COH.
Having used and gone up against this perk multiple times I wanted to give my opinion, and hear yours.
For me COH can be a huge game changer for both roles.
When I am playing Survivor in a SWF I would call it a great perk, for Solo I would go so far as to call it Invaluable.
But when I am playing Killer, I also have found that COH can work for me. Having 1 or more Survivors run clear across the map to use it definitely takes pressure off the Gens for example, and the Nurses Calling value can be insane.
So how would you balance/ change COH, or would you leave it as it is?.
MY CHANGE.
My change would be to just remove the Aura of the Totem for other Survivors.
This would offer the sound and visual effects of the Boon more of a chance to play a part in the Perks use and force the survivors to use precious Gen time searching for it.
That is of course if the Killer didn't get to COH first, but Survivors would find that out the hard way having no Aura to rely on from across the map, this would obviously be far more effective against people not using Mics, but would likely still work fairly well against say 2 teams of 2.
I personally feel this perk may need to be looked at again, but honestly right now I am 50/50 when it comes to COH.
Comments
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Simple answer: yes
multiple CoH users have caused my killer games to stretch out to 30+ minutes due to 3-4 gen layouts and multiple CoH totems far away from the gens. It's not fun, it's actually more boring than anything else to play against. I rarely straight up lose killer games because of CoH, it just makes the games drag on and on and on
14 -
No, it just needs a cool down after snuff
4 -
yes, COH was terrible for DBD. everyone complains about the same stale meta but im almost certain they meant "nerf the meta and buff the weak things" and not "literally break the game with the best perk in dbd".
41 -
Yes the perk was a terrible idea and is the stupidest thing that's been introduced to the game since the original iteration of Undying.
Your suggested nerf doesn't do anything against SWFs who can just tell each other where the totem is; it only hurts solo players who are already at a disadvantage compared to SWF. So I don't think that nerf would be very effective.
14 -
The idea is not bad - survs are doing secondary with the boons.
But CoH is simply too much. Even without speed buff (which it should not have) it is an endless possibility to heal.
I see that when i play SoloQ. If there is a boon i can run there and heal if the others are busy.
Already a lot of times explained here it counters hit and run and killer pressure in a big way.
And for certain killers it is their strengh to build pressure - this is a reason some killers suffer now so much.
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COH isn't horrible, the concept isn't that bad. But having a large team wide healing with increased speeds is a problem.
It really just amplified an already glaring issue in how fast you can heal. Even before boons healing speeds were getting ridiculous, adding this just made it worse.
Healing speed should be capped, especially self healing. The fact that I can heal myself in 6 seconds and still have perk slots filled with nothing but second chance perks, is an issue.
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Yes, i think some problems come from too much and too fast healing in general.
That is also one reason that you sometimes have to tunnel. If you switch to another the first one can heal immediately and the whole chase was wasted. As i said - you lose all pressure.
3 -
It is bad for DBD, both fundamentally and by its numbers. Survivors have had perks in the past that if 1 person equipped it, multiple people would get the benefit, but boons are different obviously. You can see their auras, their effects are significant, etc.
CoH specifically is bad for M1 killers because they have to commit to downs or they went on a chase for nothing. If they leave that survivor, they can be healed and back on gens not even 20 seconds later. But if they're committing to chases, that's gonna waste too much time and they lose to the gen rush because they're not pressuring anyone else. CoH should never have granted above a 50% boost for healing. It should at least be as low as 30%, making it like Botany but for everyone.
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I dont think a cd is enough. If one survivors CoH is on CD the other 3 can still use theirs. I think it should be a 1 time use thing. Like an actual hex perk without undying. Once its cleansed you cant bless it again.
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The issue with CoH is that the reward outweighs the risk. High reward, low risk.
Like you said, it's a game changing perk which poses a big obstacle for killers as their actions are less impactful. If you damage multiple survivors with Legion, his power is outright negated by fast healing times, not counting the stacked on medkits.
Boons are survivor equivalent of Hexes so it should stand that they both have equal risk and we all know that all boons and hexes will never have the same reward. Still the principle stands.
2 -
Boons are ultimately going to be problematic perks, because killers don't have fair counterplay to them. Meaning any boon that is strong enough to warrant using every game is problematic since it's 1 survivor using a perk slot to give everyone else that perk as well.
The only reason the other boon perks aren't problematic is they are either really niche or their value is too low to worth the cost of blessing.
4 -
They will be useless then
1 -
Better useless than broken.
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I think there needs to be more counter play. Snuffing out a totem and canceling the effect isn't really good enough. Now corrupting the totem or even reversing the effect might make it more high risk and high reward but right now it gives survivor a breathing zone, when the goal of the game is to stop survivors from breathing.
You'd think the Entity would get upset if survivor's kept blessing his victims too, or at least hungry. Nice hope you have there champ. Delicious really.
8 -
There may be numerous reasons why I don't play killer much, but has nothing to do with any perks.
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What's so stupid is that they gave Survivors a ability worse that the original Hex Undying. They shouldn't be allowed to relight it over and over again without risk. Please don't give Thrill of the Hunt as a valid perk against it because added time to bless Totems isn't worth it when they removed the notification from it
Boons should have a 3 token limit. Once used then no more Boon.
6 -
Yup CoH has destroyed this game
3 -
Honestly, I think boons would be so much more fun if they could "backfire" when snuffed by the killer.
Imagine if boons inflicted some kind of minor penalty on the entire survivor team (since everyone could use the effect) and a more significant effect on the boon's owner. Plus they could also build in a natural "cooldown" where the afflicted boon player couldn't bless a new totem until their debuffs from the previous snuffing wore off.
11 -
The idea of a healing station might be ok but It's numbers are too good and there's just not enough counter play to the boon mechanic either.
U mentioned how survs would waste time running back and forth across the map is good for you but if there's 4 survs on the map doing that you won't be able to even defend gens with a M1 killer. If you're killer has weak chase against a swf they would constantly rotate people just to body block you and run to the boon, and it actually works fairly well.
Using your health as a resource is fine, but being able to do that again and again and again without meaningful counterplay to the mechanic doesn't seem to be fair, so I dont think current CoH is good for the game no.
6 -
Yes, the ''nerf'' wasn't really a nerf and it's still extremely strong. I use coh too and it's not fair that you can bless the same totem over and over. It would be okay if the same thing could be done to hexes but that's not possible.
5 -
I've suggested this before, the perks turning into penalizing hexes when kicked. It doesn't fix the problem of putting a boon in the corner of the map during a 3-gen but it solves the other issues with relighting it. Especially since if you kick it and it becomes a hex, it takes longer to boon it again so it's faster to cleanse.
My suggestion for kicked boons was:
Circle of Healing: Becomes a hex that gives a -25% healing speed to survivors in the trial while active, stacks up to 5 times at diminishing rates (25% -> 40% -> 50% -> 55% -> 60%).
Shadow Step: Becomes a hex that gives the killer aura reading on survivors within 6 meters, plus 2m per active shadow step hex.
Dark Theory: Becomes a hex that gives survivors a stacking 1% movement speed penalty.
Exponential: Becomes a hex that gives survivors slower recovery rates that stacks up to 5 times at similar numbers to Circle of Healing.
3 -
nobody runs shadowstep and exponential. Nobody is gonna use the new boon. So adding penalties will put it in the bottom tier of perks
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i feel like boons might need to be separated into different categories:
Boons and Unstable Boons (Aka Corruptible Boons) .
Unstable Boons would be the more powerful but can be corrupted by the killer turning them into hexes meanwhile normal boons can't be.
So Circle of Healing could be an unstable boon causing the corruption downside(and can't be reblessed) if the killer finds it but the weaker but stable boons like shadow step wouldn't be corruptible.
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Boons in general were a bad idea especially when the haste one comes out it will be even more detrimental
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Yes, I think it promotes tunneling, and bumps medkits from useful to OP.
3 -
I'll look at it from however many angles I can.
Killer perspective: Several playstyles have been heavily impacted by this perk. Numerous killers have a playstyle that relies on injuring/juggling survivors and picking them off one by one. Some notable examples are Legion and Wraith. So for them, it sucks, especially since there's minimal counterplay to boons other than snuffing them out to disable them until they're relit.
Survivor: Because killers have a strong hatred for boons, they're more prone to playing "efficiently." Unfortunately for survivors, this means that killers are more likely to resort to tactics such as tunneling, camping, etc to build up pressure. This already existed before boons, especially with medkits, but boons are exacerbating this (especially when they stack with medkits).
Developer: The devs have tried hard to implement a secondary objective for survivors. They make it clear that they should be interacting with totems, which is one of the reasons NOED is still existent despite it being a heavily maligned perk. So when viewing this perk in that perspective... I still view it as a flop. The issue with this "secondary objective" is that there is little impact on the game unless perks are involved. Dull totems mean nothing to the killer with perks such as NOED or Plaything, while they're useless to survivors with boon perks or Inner Strength (except points, but points don't get you out those gates). If it's not something implemented into the base game, then it's not a secondary objective; it's a minor obstacle to making a perk take effect.
Balance: Boons are a mess. Circle of Healing is too strong for how little counterplay it has. They can constantly relight a god totem (ex: top of Iron Works) that takes too long to reach and snuff while covering a large portion of the map that it's straight-up unfair when medkits and/or other perks are used in conjunction. On the flip-side, nerfing boons to be one use per totem (i.e letting snuffing break the totem) would harm Shadowstep and Exponential which are already very circumstantial perks. They're either too weak and need their current balancing, or too strong and need more counterplay. Nothing is quite right.
So no, I do not believe that the current implementation of Circle of Healing is good for the game. I don't know what could be done or if something should be done to this perk or to boons entirely.
2 -
Gonna give both of you a very hard no on the concept of a snuffed boon setting up a team-wide penalty. We don't want a 2 hour Mikaela ruining the game for all the other players like that.
But I do like the idea of CoH carrying a risk penalty for getting snuffed, and I do like the idea of boons having cooldowns. At the very least, boons need to be individualised more to better balance risk/reward on an individual basis: Nerfs to boons as a mechanism are just going to cripple the bad boons more than CoH.
Boons should have individual ranges, bless times, cooldowns-upon-snuff, and possibly adverse effects upon snuff.
For example...
CoH
Now decreases boon radius to 16 from 24. Lowest boon radius affects all boons in your perk loadout.
Now increases bless time to 20 from 14. Highest bless time affects all boons in your perk loadout.
Snuff cooldown of 60 seconds. Highest snuff cooldown affects all boons in your perk loadout.
Survivor suffers from Exposed while CoH is on cooldown
1 -
Maybe... It's really strong in certain situations but weak in others
It takes less time to heal... Killers have to be aware of it and snuff it once found... and it's replaceability makes it annoying to play against
And it doesn't have a lot of counters (other then snuffing it)... unless they changed that
Also if the Killer is prepared for it... AKA running a build that centers on it's use then it's manageable
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I like the conceot of making heals easier. It results in more prot hits, more chases, but in the end it makes the pressure you get by injuring survs vanish.
I like @Firellius idea of making the perk have a cd during which you suffer from the exposed status effect. It would indirectly make vigil more useful too.
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Boons destroyed multiple M1 killers. I see very little Michaels or Ghostyboys anymore. Hell now that i think about it i haven't seen ghosty in a week.
This isnt healthy gameplay when killers know they cannot do anything with certain killers anymore.
Idea of boons being spammable is unhealthy and broken, and CoH being the worst out of them all.
6 -
Outside a SWF maybe, but I've seen them before and they can give some pretty good value when placed intelligently.
I mean that's nothing new? A survivor can unhook you in front of the killer, watch you get downed and hooked, and unhook you again and then you're out of the game. Either the perk needs a penalty for using it flippantly, or it needs to be weaker. What would you prefer?
1 -
Shadowstep sucks during end game. Yes the survivors need to know SS is in play and loop near it to get value.
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That was the last match I played before my break and I only won because I played plague. With most other M1 killers, I never would have had a chance. So yes, Coh is too strong. The only perk that buys me time is Forced Penance. There's not enough most killers can do against such builds...
2 -
That too I agree
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I mean that's nothing new? A survivor can unhook you in front of the killer, watch you get downed and hooked, and unhook you again and then you're out of the game. Either the perk needs a penalty for using it flippantly, or it needs to be weaker. What would you prefer?
Yes, other survivors can screw you over. No reason to make it easier. I don't want to be saddled with a global disadvantage because someone else picked a bad perk. It's way better to localise it only to the survivor who took the perk.
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How about if your boon gets snuffed you go into the dying state?
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It’s literally 2%, killers will be fine. Look at how everyone thought exponential was gonna be broken and abused and no one even uses it.
1 -
So, I don't think the effect of Circle of Healing is a bad one to exist. You can get similar effects with more flexibility with other healing perks. The problem with it is threefold.
- Circle of Healing gives the main effects of ~3.5 perks for 1 slot. Self Care and two and a half copies of Botany Knowledge. Getting that much out of one perk slot is a bit much.
- Circle of Healing gives those effects to any Survivor in the zone. That's kinda nutty.
- In spite of the above... the killer has nearly no viable counter play to the perk or any boon perk for that matter. Kicking a boon doesn't do enough. Sure it turns off the perk but a 14s bless later and its back.
I personally would buff kicking boons significantly. Boons pretty much all provide a very strong benefit, but not enough down sides for those incredibly strong effects. So... we need to add some of the below penalties for having your boon kicked.
- When your boon gets kicked, you cannot replace it for 30-60 seconds. This will let killers kick boons to get a much needed breather from them.
- For the duration of the above penalty, the Survivor gets an action speed debuff similar to Gift of Pain.
- The Survivor carrying the boon screams when it is kicked.
There are other options besides the above obviously, but right now kicking boons is 100% not strong enough and desperately needs to be buffed.
0 -
Ooh I like that kinda like how if you vault a window too many times it gets blocked but instead it's the survivors basically giving you a free random hex if the killer doesn't have a hex perk and another one of theirs if they do have one
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I mean survivors are technically playing with a force they don't understand in a realm that is not their own. Who is to say that next circle of healing blessing won't blind/oblivious you the rest of the match and destroy the totem if you've blessed it two or three times?
1 -
If you slug a lot than yeah it can be a game changer. I don't do it much cause it can make the game longer for both sides. I may only do it if I want a 4k.
1 -
that's fair. As long as it helps you out.
1 -
Yeah, its probably the biggest complaint I have as killer right now. When I am playing killer and I hear a boon go up it triggers me, I want to find them and tunnel them. Or give up.
The fact it stacks with First aid kits is ridiculous
1 -
Yes,shuts down all weak m1 killer while not doing much againts the killers survivors struggle with.
The perk is basically godlike againts weak killers and in swf,but its not that great againts good killers and soloq.
BHVR basically makes the problems with this game even worse with boons,especially coh,its like self care on steroids.
Its hard not to call BHVR survivor biased when they keep pulling this **** .
3 -
Way too harsh. Exposed is fine.
1 -
Yes it's very bad for the game and should be reworked.
1 -
A killer not playing because of CoH when they get new perks constantly to slow down and oppress the game is a bad excuse. Survivors need more good perks which they never get btw. CoH is good for the game because it gives survivors a secondary objective (killer buff) for a slightly better self-care in a small area of the map.
What is bad is that it has already been nerfed so much it is hardly seen. I see it maybe one 1 of 10 matches now as survivor.
If killers have massive slowdown perks that are used every game, some using Sloppy Butcher, then it is only fair for survivors have a way to counter the slowdowns. CoH needs some buffs, it should be 100% or have a larger area that it covers. Killer hex perks are map wide affecting the entire match, I don't see why CoH needs to be such a small area with only marginally better than self-care.
1 -
No but the problem is that rather than people focusing on what about it is bad, people would rather blow it out of proportion and say it is bad.
The concept is not bad, the execution was.
1 -
It's not a small area, when played well, it'll be put on strategic places, where it benefits most and with hard access by the killer such as in upstair places. The problem with this perk is precisely the range, the speed just aggravates the situation. Since it gives a free self care, its range could be pretty small and it would still have value. But the devs want all boons to have the same range, even the weaker ones, which is a mistake in my opinion. Even exhaustion perks don't have the same duration anymore because they know some are stronger than others. Now comparing boons with hexes to justify wider range makes no sense, hexes can be cleansed for good, not boons tho.
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So tired of this guy trolling the forums and the mods doing nothing about it when devs listen to people like this. Saying you only see CoH 1 out of 10 matches is a straight up lie. It's in every single match.
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