Every killer is camping... every match...
Can the devs just admit kills and escapes is not a SBMM?
I mean everyone in the community at the higher level knows it and you're just encouraging a bad playstyle which results in unhappy players for both sides.
Killers dont enjoy the way they are forced to play to "win" and survivors dont enjoy it either. Why not have a actual SBMM that shows skill it would actually make people happier with your game.
You even said kills and escapes dont work, why put it in? Dont treat this game like a balanced 4v4, and dont compare it sports... in sports you dont need to score 3 times for a single point.
I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm just being honest. It's quite clear its unhealthy for the game and no one is happy about it.
And before people say "its because you're losing" it's not, most games I escape or get multiple kills. But the way its achieved isnt exciting nor fun, just because you can win doesn't make it a fun experience for either side.
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You have to realize that they don't care about the game all they care about is cosmetics so they can get more money....screw over balance and fairness LETS MAKE MONEY! That's why most cosmetics cost real $ and the ones that use shards are mediocre at best.....and let's not say how the Twins got the shaft lol.
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Most killers camp because it's fun for them, SBMM backing it up as proper win is a bonus.
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To be fair it is fun being a basement bubba for a lot of us lol
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Well the topic title is absolutely untrue. Unless you have a very strange and loose definition of "camping".
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I'm assuming you just watched a video where a well known streamer was using braindead tactics to cheese kills and prove sbmm is a lie , If you haven't saw it you should look it up it's pretty funny and most people probably know who I'm talking about but I don't want to get the comment removed so I'm not mentioning him by name, it's very possible some people are doing it as a protest but I honestly haven't had that problem alot myself, most killers who camp in my games only had like 1-2 gens left with that being their first hook of the game and in that situation can you blame them? It's not their fault that BHVR ignores actual skill and ranking and just matchmakes you with anyone it can, there's no reason why survivors with thousands of hours should face a killer with only like 100 hours and vice versa it's just not a stable system to keep a playerbase and it's starting to show
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Killers have always camped and always tunneled.
SBMMR actually helps you in that aspect, because Killers who are camping and tunneling are pushed up in SBMMR so that they go against players who can handle that type of behavior.
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No I dont really watch people, I was just going off my experience today. Legit every killer was camping except 2, so out of my 20games 2 killers didnt camp...
And no I dont blame the killers at all, I dont blame either side for how they play and I completely understand why people play, do or use certain things.
I just hope the devs realise its hurting alot about the game, if it's not fun people wont play.
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Match making would like to have a word with you.
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Not my experience, people use to go for hooks and chases. Yet today just been full on camping, and anyone can beat camping but honestly who wants to even play it....
If this dont change I wont play, I'm sorry but running round and just hitting skillchecks for gens isnt fun. And if that's all this game is then uninstalled it shall be.
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You have to also consider the level you are in comparison to these killers. If you are seeing a lot of these killers, then you are probably reached a level of gameplay where those killers are hit a glass ceiling and are floundering at that level. What's unfortunately for you is that you will be forced using DS and BT to get past that level. Meaning 1 of your perk slots will always need to be dedicated to DS or BT.
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Thats not what I mean at this point matchmaking will throw any killer into a lobby if they have been waiting long enough completely throwing mmr out the window. This also completely invalidates mmr since that match was a mismatch and will be reflected in your mmr. So mmr is actually bs since matchmaking I'd prioritized over mmr.
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That's something I agree with you on but it's not an MMR issue. It's a big game design issue that the developers keep refusing to address.
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Technically, there's a whole host of game design issues that need fixed. That's why I think the game designers should be forced to play their own game 10 hours a week. I don't think they realize how bad some things have gotten.
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I'm sorry, but how do you measure skill on dbd? How do you measure skill with so many ways to virtually influence the outcome of a match?
When you have perks like Devour Hope, Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, Ruin...
Maps like The Game, Haddonfield.
Busted addons and items.
Solo queue and SWF.
From Nurse to Trapper.
Till someone finds a fair way to measure skill, I thnk Kill/Escape is the most consistent and reliable way of knowing if players are good on complete the only objective of the game: kill or escape.
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Definitely an SBMM issue as well though, it encourages the worst type of playstyle and rewards it. End of the day games are meant to be fun for both sides, while theres definitely alot of issues in the game a SBMM that isnt based on skill causes big issues as well.
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You know, players can just not give a hoot about whatever the SBMM system is trying to do, and play the game the way they like to. When I play killer, I don't give a damn about hooks / kills / escapes / whatever, as long as I have fun playing the game, and it's liberating to not care about whatever artificial win conditions the game is trying to dictate. I simply make my own, and a win to me is any game where I had fun chasing survivors around and smacking them. They can all escape, I still fell like I played my role well and had fun.
The same goes for playing survivors. Obviously "survivor" implies that I need to survive, so that's the challenge. Every minute into a match where I'm not dead is a good one, and I do what I can to advance my teams objectives to the best of my abilities. If I get clapped 30 seconds and face-camped into a match, at least I'm buying my team some time. Surviving is the challenge, and it's obviously not going to be possible every single match. I've long stopped seething about these things, I just die and go to the next match. I've got challenges from the tome to attempt, and most of those don't require me to survive the trial, so I'm still working on something, even if die, which statistically speaking, is going to happen more than 50% of my matches. If I play survivor a lot, then dying is just part of the experience.
Both survivors and killers play a role, and the sooner both parties stop caring about the rules of an invisible, broken "skill" based matchmaking system, the sooner both sides get to play the game in a more relaxed and enjoyable manner. I'm doing my part, and for the most part it's working for me.
Things that are upsetting and need addressing is the new player experience, which is currently atrocious. Some type of catch-up mechanic is desperately needed to get new players equipped with the perks they need, in order to stand a chance in the current meta and the matches the SBMM system tosses them into. The fact that a Dwight with a single yellow perk and 4 hours on record finds himself in a lobby of players with full meta-loadouts and thousands of hours between them speaks to a much larger issue IMHO. And it doesn't look like it's getting better, what's the plan to close the gap between new players and those who are veterans? Does BHVR have any idea what the new player experience is like? Probably not.
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4ks has always been the hallmark of winning for killers. It's not something new with SBMMR. Survivor play was much-much worse with the old system because a you had high level survivors being put with low level survivors and the killer tunneling that low level survivor out of the match in 15 seconds. Almost every match had a low level survivor in it that was tunneled out almost immediately and the game wound up being a 3 vs 1. At that point it was a guaranteed win for the Killer so the killer didn't always tunnel and camp at that point. I guess you could just make it a 3 vs 1 game where the killer is always guaranteed a 3k and that will stop the tunneling and camping because killers know they will win no matter what they do.
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How can I have fun as survivor if killers dont really play and just camp a hook?
I also dont think new players need help, the grind is awful no matter who you are and saying they need perks just isnt correct. However does the game need to feel more rewarding? For sure!
And well the miss matched players is due to bad SBMM and backfill lobbies. Dont forget new accounts are placed so far in the SBMM and not at 0, you also have very good survivors who dont escape and are kept lower in the SBMM.
I'd also say the devs are closer to new players themselves, they really dont play the game at a high level at all. I believe the best dev at the game infact left (creator or blight) forget his name
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I just want them to fix the damn pipping system so I can reach iri 1 without stressing out. They apparently can't fix SBMM, because, even if it worked perfectly, at peak play hours it has to throw balanced matches out the window just to get people into games. I wouldn't mind the unfair unbalanced miserable matches so much if I couldn't depip. Bad enough you wait in a long queue for a short unfun match, bad enough to earn only a small amount of BP, but to depip on top of it, going backwards in progress... the game actually punishes its players for its terrible matchmaking system. Not making much progress is one thing, but having progress taken away is a whole other thing and it's super frustrating.
I played one match of survivor last night and then turned off the game completely.
Last night, the one survivor match I played the killer camped the first hook at 5 gens, and when someone made the save he tunneled the unhooked person out. So we stopped making saves. Everyone went down fast and died on their first hook. I died last, and the killer was hitting me on the hook like he was upset he got an easy 4k. I mean, I kept running into traps like a blind person, he had no reason to be mad at me. Unless he wanted me to make a save, but if that were the case then camping the hook would be counter-productive. There were no boons, no one healing, gens were slow, but he didn't stop camping at 3v1 or at 2v1. Solo queue, so we couldn't communicate, couldn't coordinate, and everyone just seemed to give up.
That match felt less like a game and more like a waiting-around-to-die simulator.
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Why is this being made an MMR issue?
It seems to me like it's a boon/COH issue. Why should killers let a survivor get off the hook, only to be saved with BT, have DS, and then insta-heal with COH to start the cycle all over again.
Personally I think it's down to killers feeling that, given the handouts the survivors have, it's the only way they can play with any measure of success
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This, 100 percent this. I suck at killer. I get looped easily, I only get kills when people get sloppy or they have less experience. At this point I know my role is to give the best damn game I can give. So I do the best I can to entertain the hell out of the survivors and I enjoy that. I don't give a damn about 4K versus 1K, only whether I had fun doing it. I will never stand in front of hook as I cannot imagine a less entertaining way to play.
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It's partially that but it's a trap. Camping and tunneling works until it doesn't and then the killer is left frustrated and floundering.
As an example, I had four games this morning as solo queue and my results were:
#1: killer did NOT camp or tunnel, could have easily 4Ked us but I think he was farming so 3 of us escaped
#2: Killer did camp and tunnel, 4 hooks, 1 kill
#3: Killer camped and tunneled, 3 hooks, 1 kill
#4: Killer camped and tunneled, 4 hooks, 1 kill
Of Killers #2 to #4 what they had in common was that they couldn't chase very well probably because they got to their MMR by camping and tunneling.
Now they're looking at a series of terrible games where they're frustrated, lose a fair amount until they can 3K again and then get put back where they'll continue to lose until they learn map and situational awareness, when to drop chase, switch targets, etc.
If MMR were possible to base off of more than kills and escapes they would get better matches. If it's not possible then the dev team should consider how to balance camping, tunneling and gen speeds as an integrated whole to make it so facecamping and hard tunneling (defined as 3 of 4 hook states on one survivor) is neither needed at any MMR nor possible. Until that happens, basing it off of a binary system just leads to frustration among killer players. That's why I consider it an MMR issue.
Side note: Also, redesigning the maps, killer powers or whatever so that more killers than just Nurse, Blight and Artist were capable of creating pressure on large maps would also be helpful.
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That's the spirit. Play the game in a way that's fun for you, and detach yourself from how the game tells you you did. I find that just by going into a trial with a different attitude I can still have a good time while getting juiced by good survivors. I really enjoy going against good players who know how to loop instead of holding shift + W, and if it costs me the game then so be it. I get better at playing the game that way too.
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If MMR were possible to base off of more than kills and escapes they would get better matches.
Your inference here is that these matches are bad, but you're literally looking at less than a handful of matches, rather that the trend over literally 10's of 1000's of matches happening every day which the devs do have access to. How are you able to determine the performance of a system from looking at individual cherry-picked examples, and ignoring the reports from the devs that escape/death rates are closer to 50% than they ever have been before?
If it's not possible then the dev team should consider how to balance camping, tunneling and gen speeds as an integrated whole to make it so facecamping and hard tunneling (defined as 3 of 4 hook states on one survivor) is neither needed at any MMR nor possible.
Here's the problem with freedom to play as you choose... you have to allow the "bad" as well as the "good". If a killer wants to face-camp and/or tunnel, how can you stop them? You can only - at best - make it more rewarding for them to chase other survivors, but given how many 2nd chance perks survivors have these days with boons on the top, I feel killers in general don't find the chase rewarding any more.
Playing killer is a stressful exercise, one mistake could cost the game, whereas survivor is literally chill - you don't even have to hold the button to do the gen any more - and yet there's more and more second chances because the game is based around survivors having equal counter-play to killers, despite there being 4 of them!
Until that happens, basing it off of a binary system just leads to frustration among killer players. That's why I consider it an MMR issue.
You've asserted a conclusion, but you made no coherent link to the problem being emergent of a "binary system".
At the end of the day, any MMR system that you're going to implement (not that you suggested one, but let's assume you did) is going to be binary in some sense... the survivor either moves up or down. You might scale the movement according to other metrics, but it's still moving one way or another, i.e. a binary system. Which is why your conclusion makes no sense.
I don't believe it's to do with MMR at all. If anything, as someone else commented, MMR is helping here by ensuring the players who play like that are matched with other players who can counter it.
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You asked why people view it as an MMR problem and I answered. Before MMR, the face camping tunnelers were around rank 16 and now they're not. The survivors are not based around equal counterplay to the killer and you can believe that matching killers with survivors they can't catch is a good system all you want but I don't share that opinion. If a Killer is matched with a survivor that can run them for a long period of time then that's a match making issue that breeds frustration.
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As a fairly new player with only about 40hrs in the game and having mostly been trying to play with friends as survivors, killers catching and hooking one player only to camp that one hooked player till they die has really been making this game hard to enjoy. And then when you have a match where the killer actually tries to hunt others while someone is hooked.it just makes the camped matches so much more frustrating. It just simply ruins the fun.
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Huh? You couldn't hit rank 1 WITH tunneling? That was the easiest way...
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They won't say SBMM is bad because their stats say it's fine and working as intended. As long as the stats say everything is fine and people continue playing they are going to keep ignoring players saying it doesn't feel fine and SBMM has made the game unfun. They won't listen to us when we say that it encourages unfun playstyles and that the excuse of "those camping killers and hiding survivors will move up until they go against one's that can handle them" isn't a good excuse because instead of them being stuck at bottom like they were with emblem system they are moving through all the levels of MMR ruining everyone's experience.
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They did more, though, then just stand by a hook and let the survivors do gens completely uncontested even if the gen is only 10 metres away. That's what I mainly see now and whom I'm referring to.
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One other note, thank you for changing back to Bubba. It was jarring to see you with a portrait that wasn't Bubba.
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I think it should be less "Stop Killers from tunneling/camping" and more "Why are Killers camping and tunneling" and more investigation than just "Because they are toxic" "because they have no skill" "because it's an easy win". Killers for years didn't camp and tunnel, and every single time it became more prevalent is because most of the players were in a situation they believed - they had no other choice, or they felt like it didn't matter anymore if the other players had fun too.
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Truth is, MMR is not working.
Camping has nothing to do with that.
It is the only way they can actually do something against those broken matchmaking, there is no such things as "got to their MMR"
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Translation:
You don't like it.
I love this recurring myth that "It is no fun for both sides", when the Killers doing it CLEARLY have no problem doing it.
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Actually alot of killers feel forced to do it, especially those that arent as skillful or dont feel like they have the ability to go for chases in certain games because the survivors had too much control.
Face camping has never been so common in all of the 5+years iv played the game. While a small few people may enjoy just sitting at a hook alot dont, you ask them and their response is usually "I had to" "I'm forced to" "I dint want to lose" which are valid reasons.
I dont get why people like you would even want to courage the playstyle of killers sitting at hooks? The real fun is the chases, games boring as hell if none of that happens.
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I don't encourage it. I'm sick of forum myths like "It is not fun for either side", "Dead Hard is balanced", "NOED awards you free kills", "Huntress has no counterplay", "You can't dodge a Nemesis tentacle", and other such lies.
If someone is camping cause they want to win, they winning is fun for them. If they thought chasing was more important, then that is what they would do. But they don't.
As a killer, I do not fun chases fun. I find DOWNS fun, but I do not think running around the same tile a dozen times is peak fun. This is why people run anti-loop.
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This is what happens when the devs make chasing the worst choice you can make as killer. Survivors will always be able to beat you with war of attrition; they can do gens faster than you can regress them. And the pressure you put out with chasing only mitigates that to a sliver of a degree.
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Just about 60hrs on the game now, played a fair bit of killer now (for my amount played ofc) feel like I'm noticing that even if all survivors manage to escape and I only hook one person once (with leaving the hook to look for other survivors) I STILL seem to get more bloodpoints than I see killers who camp do.. Makes it hard for me to accept the idea that people are forced to play that way to get points..
It may be vastly different at higher mmr but even so the amount of campers I run into as survivor with less than 60 hours played is astonding. Its at least every 3rd match.
Honestly would encourage any survivor who gets hooked by a camper to stay alive for aslong as possible and any survivor that sees a killer camping a hooked player to just go ham on generators and exits. Don't encourage such killer behaviour by feeding them more points as you attempt rescues.
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It's not for points it's for kills, and that's the sad part. They want kills so badly and dont feel able to they just camp....
Luckily today for me as survivor no one camped till end game (which is understandable) and games were much more fun.
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You get more BP (and pips) by chasing and spreading hooks around than you get by camping. With 8 hooks and 0 kills you can get 29,600 BP if you max Deviousness and pip up to somewhere in Gold I think it is without ever killing a single survivor.
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If that is indeed the case then yeah thats pretty darn sad. How fun can it be to stand staring at a hooked person all match and only get 1 kill after a +10min match
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This comes down to people mimicking the strategies of role models. Streamers and Competitive players who are playing to win have gravitated towards camping and tunneling because it's effective strategies to win. This leads to individuals who watch them feeling like those strategies are valid strategies that they can incorporate into their own play. And they're not wrong.
But I do think that it's a game health issue. When killers camp and tunnel, then people just stop playing DBD because it's not fun to play.
But I don't think MMR has anything to do with this at all.
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Why would killers split hooks when healing is as insane as it is thesedays? Five seconds after the person is unhooked they're gonna be fully healed anyway so may as well eat the DS and tunnel.
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I dont mean this in a mean way at all when I say this, but your reply is adorable and I miss those thoughts.
Well basically at the higher level (in SBMM not in the grades, you cant actually see your skill rating) most killers struggle and they do better stand staring at a hook alot of the time.
The past few days of survivor iv escaped 41/50 games that's as a solo including games where survivors DC.
My advice to you is to always go for hooks especially since you're new, you'll have more fun and will hopefully be placed in a good spot to keep playing in a fun way!
Btw feel free to ask me anything if you need help! Played for 5+years and do both roles and all characters :)
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Agreed, although the SBMM encouraging kills over hooks as a win kinds does.
People like winning and like you say at the higher level (like comp) it's the best strat sadly
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Here's an explanation. How long will it take you to eat the DS and BT? How many survivors are left free while you're chasing the survivor you just hooked? Probably quite a bit and three.
Now if you can down the unhooker in under 20 seconds, who won't have BT or DS active on them, and hook them instead how many survivors are free? You have a survivor hooked, one looking to get healed (which takes longer than 5 seconds even with CoH especially if they have to run to the boon) and potentially one trying to unhook the other person and possibly one trying to heal the unhooked. Bonus if, instead of facecamping, you tie up one in a chase.
In which scenario do the survivors get gens done faster? The one with three survivors doing gens or the one with less than three doing gens?
Camping works when all survivors abandon the gens. If the survivors are using game knowledge and have a desire to escape rather than mess around with the killer for fun you may have just lost the match.
CoH and mega heal speeds are frustrating but the more pressure on the survivors the more likely it is the Killer wins. Tunneling is not always the best way to do that.
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Here's to hoping I never reach those hights lol sounds awfully dull. But I guess the conversation between us just goes to show how bad this seems to have gotten that as a fairly new and fresh player I'm also subject to matches where the killer just stands camping the first person they hook. DESPITE all other survivors are basically running around like headless chickens comparatively. Thats sad stuff. facing killers at such low rank that has given up on playing as intended before the match even started and before even trying.
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Yep. If you want to get kills, which according to SBMM is the sole measure of killer skill, camping is the easiest way to do it with the current game balance
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Wow your post enlightened me.
It made me google how SBMM worked, and i can't believe it only depends on whether or not you die or escape as a survivor, or how many kills you get as a killer.
It made me literally go "wow how did these people even manage to make a functional game to begin with?" ... But then I remembered it's not really functional, there's so many bugs and poor design decisions, this game is barely just fun enough to keep playing but it has so many problems.
But yeah, this explains why me and my friends keep getting a lot of new killers, despite us having so much experience. We just play for fun and we don't care if we die, so we prioritize messing around instead of gen rushing, and happily give our lives to the killer at the end. However... This means the new killers we get are still learning the game and struggle with catching us, and often I can tell that they're not having fun. ... Which, makes us feel bad and give them pity kills, and then our MMR apparently lowers even more.
They need to make SBMM based off more than just kills/escapes. What ultimately decides who "wins" in this game is how much time is spent in chases. A skilled survivor can loop a killer for longer, and a skilled killer can catch his prey faster.
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I agree with you, from a game design perspective, allowing camping and tunneling to be so easy and so rewarding in kills for new killers and being so absolutely unfun with absolutely no counters for new players (no DS and BT), it's absolutely alienating new players from playing the game.
Decisive Strike is behind an cash paywall and Borrowed Time is behind a bloodpoints paywall.
If this game was run by another company, camping and tunneling would have already been addressed. This is just sad at this point.
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They don’t have to admit anything because everyone knows what their philosophy is when referring to “skill” = “ kill or escape”.
Treat it like you do grades. They don’t mean anything and neither does MMR. Because you re bound to get potatoes that were able to escape due to someone else doing all of the work.
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