My cousin had a epileptic episode from macro flashlights
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I'm so sorry for your cousin, I hope in the future the game becomes safer for him and everyone in the same situation :(
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It reminds me of a news story from a few months ago where a man bought a peanut butter milkshake w/ no nuts and it ended up triggering his son's peanut allergy when he brought it home. The issue there was that the food service employee was careless enough to put nuts in it anyway. IMO the employee was squarely to blame as I know they are SUPPOSED (key word there) to undergo serious training for this situation. The news tried to make it out as though the father was at fault for buying it in the first place and I suppose that to an extent it was. However, despite the man's own personal responsibility the fault still lies on the company for messing up his order and putting him into a false sense of security. Well, that's my take anyway.
I guess from that perspective I can see where people are coming from. Behavior didn't really take the precautions necessary with this game despite (supposedly) having changed certain aspects of the Ringu chapter just for epileptics. With word buzzing around that they're trying to make the game more accessible to those with epileptic tendencies combined with a lack of a health and safety warning at the start - I think that responsibility lies more heavily on behavior for this one. They understand the business that they're in and have seemingly gone out of their way (whether it was intentional or not) to comfort and reassure those people with epileptic tendencies. I'm starting to believe there might be enough reasonable evidence for a lawsuit regarding situations similar to this one.
TLDR: Despite the nuance to this situation Behavior has given people a false sense of security.
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But shouldn’t a pool have lifeguards?
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lol, depends actually.
Some smaller scale pools don't have lifeguards.
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BHVR should put a photosensitivity warning at the beginning of the game with a check-box acknowledging that you have read and understand the warning.
But I'm kind of with @Voodoo_Thirsty, people need to start taking personal responsibility with things like this and not rely warnings to protect them from obvious dangers. I don't know anyone with epilepsy and I've always known that you don't play video games because it can induce seizures. Once you've been diagnosed with epilepsy, you need to be extra careful with your health, you can't risk your health by expecting the entire world to insulate you.
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Good job trying to change the discussion into us vs them.
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I see your point.
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I believe the actual light effects of flashlights should just be removed, at least unless they're actually blinding. Maybe make the beam smoothly get more "solid" as it blinds. Seems like a very "non-intrusive" change as it specifically targets photosensitivity issues.
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If they can't fix the issues with photosensitivity a warning is the very least they can do. If there's no way to inform yourselves except for other community posts about the subject, then there is no reliable way to inform yourself to begin with.
Both parties in this scenario need to do better. This, obviously, includes BHVR.
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This thread turned into a 10/10 once Voodoo_Thirsty took it over. Bravo 👏
Well articulated. Solid reasoning. I might even re-read it cause he took on all comers. Excellent 👏
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lol this community is such garbage that this thread devolved into the typical "us vs them" garbage that is probably the main reason BHVR doesn't respect its community. There's no epileptic warning so someone could easily be uninformed about the game and fall victim to this garbage , sorry that the best fix involves taking away a joke that was never funny.
Post edited by Yatol on1 -
Whats wrong with us vs them?
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Very well said.
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Its dumb, biased, unconstructive, turns discussions into ######### flinging contest, feeds on the mentality that only OTP play this game or that the other side is wrong/dumb because they play the other side regardless of the topic at hand.
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Someone could have died and your first thought is “Devs cater to survivors :((“
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Everything.
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People can make even serious posts with actual scary stuff a us vs them arguement. Can't say im surprised though.
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Sorry to hear that. I've always said flashlights are downright dangerous and it's irresponsible they are still in the game in their current format. Even my eyes sting after.
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Knowing people with epilepsy, the "they should have known better" arguments are kinda disgusting tbh. You'd be surprised the types of stimulus that don't cause seizures that your average person would assume do. Likewise, the ones that do that most people assume can't cause any issues. Its a very difficult hobby to navigate.
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did people really waste 3 pages of this thread arguing on who they should blame instead of agreeing that behaviour needs to do something about it and at the very least add a seizure warning when you start the game?
be better, people.
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There definitely should be a warning and changes to flashlights should be made. Epilepsy triggers have a lot of variables and dependant on the person too. Not too mention someone can have one without ever having one before, it's happened to people who watch movies as well. Broad strokes of you shouldn't play videogames then is idiotic because rapid flashing lights aren't always a trigger for epilepsy. Depending on the understanding the cousin has on his epilepsy it could have never happened before or had no issue with it before. Now if the cousin knows that rapid flashing lights do in fact triggers their epilepsy that was their irresponsible behavior.
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My twelve year old cousin plays DBD and is good at it. He doesn't get scrad of it either, and knows not to do it in real life. So you are right.
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Really come on...
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I’m so sorry that happened and I hope you’re cousin is okay. 💛
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Hope your cousin is ok.
This really needs to be addressed in some way, either by in game changes or bans.
Endangering peoples health just to be a toxic waste of breath jerk is not ok and BHVR is just letting them do it.
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My concern is that this situation can be abusable by players, you know, people love to be jerks, once they realize that this can affect other players, they will do it on purpose.
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I am also concerned (and a little angry) especially with how much the community, especially the survivor side, can be petty babies.
"Oh the killer has corrupt, I hate that perk, lets hurt him. I know! seizure tech!"
This is affecting peoples health outside the game in a serious way, its been talked about for a while and BHVR have just glossed over it and swept it under the rug afaik.
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I haven’t even seen anyone that said that BHVR is not to blame at all or that there shouldn’t be a warning?
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It's not his fault it's BHVRs fault for starters they don't have ANY warnings about flashing lights as a BASIC warning for those who are affected by those. There are plenty of games out there that don't have to put those warnings in because they don't use flashing lights that could cause seizers. But saying it's irresponsible of his cousin is a low blow that isn't.
Also there are those that never once had signs of being vulnerable to seizers and had no idea until it acthappens.
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Well, I mean, killers cannot flash a strobe light at survivors. If and when we can, I will join you and decry these foul us versus them posts. For now, sounds like survivors are borderline criminal. They deserve to be in prison and see how their flashlight fares irl. Hope they can get an animation lock flash or it is not going to be pretty.
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Isn't there a warning now for basically every videogame talking about epileptic seizures?
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Holy ######### this dude did not just say "Its your fault you're epileptic and have seizures."
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Better in who's opinion? Asking questions and trying to navigate an answer I don't see an issue with in any capacity.
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Yeah the closest i guess for killer is sadako and doctor. Doctor used to be very bad but they turned his down a lot (which is good) and sadako they confirmed for live release they lowered the intensity of her lighting.
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Exactly i don't normally get headaches when I play games with flashing lights but those macros give me serious headaches and I don't get seizers or have it iny family. By no putting a warning label on the game warning about flashing lights which EVERY game does that has them, they are saying "Come sue us we don't care about your health and safety".....wait....they already say that now
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I hope you know even for epileptics sometimes things aren't 100% sure. Some epileptics can handle things others can't and at the end of the day sadly most don't know until they find out the hard way. If OP knew he was epileptic and the player knew then they both probably assumed it would be fine since similar events hadn't caused an epileptic episode. than just admit BHVR has a problem lol
Post edited by Rizzo on6 -
That is sad about your cousin and I hope they are OK. However, I don't think it is reasonable to claim BHVR almost killed them. That is really a user responsibility to decide if a game (which naturally has flashy lightning) is safe to use. Flashlights have an on/off switch, they are going to turn on and off. That should all be considered.
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"If OP knew he was epileptic and the player knew then they both probably assumed it would be fine since similar events hadn't cauFsed an epileptic episode"
OP Knew - first few words are literally "My cousin suffers from epilepsy"
Also, since no one here is offering the epileptic perspective, for what it's worth I asked my partner, who is epileptic, about this topic, and is sort of in agreement with what Voodoo said to a T. That being: a) BHVR needs a warning and/or do something about accessibility on it in general, and b) that OP, an experienced player, should have let them know since the epilepsy was known. Also he really took issue with your comment about assuming things, since it's never a safe assumption if epilepsy is already known.
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It isn’t, but there should be a flash long lights warning somewhere in the game.
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It’s really scary how many people here lack reading competence and are trying to put words in others mouths.
no one said the way it currently is is okay or that BHVR doesn’t need to fix anything. And everyone agreed a warning is the bare minimum that is needed not ASAP but since launch.
but people suffering from epilepsy should take their own precautions. In the end it is their health and they are the ones suffering. Blaming the devs/company that a warning was lacking is warranted but it doesn’t really help you after all. Videogames are always a risk. which is of course not fair but it’s also no one’s fault.
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The whole blaming argument that is/was going on is completely pointless, what a waste of time. Who cares who's to blame, can we just get rid of macro/clicking flashlights? It serves no purpose, you can get the killer's attention by tbagging in front of their face if that's what you want to do. I can't tell if some of you are trying to basically say "it's this person's fault, so macro clicking shouldn't be removed!"
If you are, refer to the first 2 sentences. If not, then what in the world is the point of this argument?
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I recommend reading the thread before replying to old comments.
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I recommend reading the thread before replying to day + old comments.
Didn't read your post and I'm not going to read your replies.
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Playing Doctor can give people seizures so no both sides can and it's still up to BHVR to at the bare minimum warn their players.
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BHVR has been woefully behind on accessability and even basic knowledge of disabilities that could impact their product, as well as the impact their product can likewise have on people. As others have said, many companies at least throw a generic warning if there is a possibility of something like this scenario, even if they have no research that it can/can't happen. After seeing how other accessibility issues have been handled in the past, people are teetering between "they didn't think about it" and "they did, but didn't care" which are both pretty bad looks.
Flashlight macros being problems isn't even new. It used to flat out crash the game for people, which of course people exploited to force people to crash mid match if they were trolling or losing (or both.) IIRC there is a small delay now because of that, when before it was tied purely to the framerate or something. So they did address the cause (flashlight macro) without seeing if there was anything else that could have been done (like, say, making the battery drain rapidly if people did it, some kind of punishment specifically for abuse) and the half measure leaves other issues as landmines waiting for someone to step on em. Hell, even if they just made the minimum cooldown considerably longer (like maybe a second) the chances of this happening would be considerably lower.
These types of scenarios are why people keep asking for real fixes instead of constant bandaids to problems ingame: much like the difficulties of bugfixing/balancing in general, there will always be factors you're not thinking about in the moment. It is always better to do something right than do it quick. Accessibility is more than just being able to remap controls, for some people (especially those with any type of neurological disorder) it can affect them outside the game as well.
That all said, like I and others have mentioned before, seizure triggers vary from person to person. Epilepsy itself has multiple versions that affect people in very different ways, from triggers to reactions. Since the bare minimum of "Hey you know there might be a chance that this could cause issues, be careful" isn't in the game, people can let their guard down. In fact, its something thats barely inherent in the game, as others have mentioned very few (granted, more than zero) things have a chance of causing episodes in people, so they could play the game for years and never know how much fire they've been playing with the whole time. And since it varies from person to person, some might be completely unaffected even with exposure.
The worst part is that there's a very easy way to err on the side of caution, make an option to get around the issue, something BHVR dreads. Lets say that the strobing light paired with the fast, repeated sound will cause a trigger in person the player (we'll just call him Dwight.) Dwight might be ok with flashlight blinds in general, but that specific sequence will cause an episode for him. Meanwhile another person (Feng) might have problems with the bright pulsing light, or even just simply the rapid light adjustment/photosensitivity. A simple option to disable both would not only help both players not have a possibly life threatening reaction, but it would even overlap with other issues as well (again, photosensitivity alone is present in a LOT of conditions.)
All it would need is an alternative sequence... for the clicking scenario, make it so the sound and light projection are replaced on the end user's side with dummy files if used too often, then released to normal after enough time has passed. That way the end user can disable it if there is an issue, while not affecting other players who might want it for more legitimate reasons (getting another players attention with a few small clicks, for example.) Likewise, since the blindness effect is purely part of the killer's first person camera, an alternate overlay that uses subtractive lighting instead of what it currently does could similarly prevent view while not causing issues. In this mode it would be best to have it be more gradual in either direction, of course.
I know stuff like that last one sounds odd to most people (a flashlight making things darker??) but again, this is in regards to accessibility. There are things like movement trackers for people who are visually impaired that help them key in on parts of the screen to prioritize movement better, while even fully blind people can play stuff like fighting games as long as the audio clarity and attenuation is good.
Kinda turned into a little bit of a rant on top of the suggestions/explinations, but I absolutely cannot stand when people blame the victim in regards to any type of illness or disability. Most people who have them don't ask for more accomidation than is necessary, and they're more important than the throwaway "but other people can use it for an advantage" copout that accessibility discussions are always met by. People without these problems are already getting an unfair advantage by not having to worry about things like, say, a life threatening episode, and then some of them turn around and blame that person as well. If even the very minimum generic message stuff was present and not hidden, it would be enough for susceptable people to at least research what possible things could cause it rather than get blindsided out of nowhere midmatch with all of the other stimuli going on.
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I came back to the forums to see if anyone else had the same issue and it seems they do.
(Ignoring the immature, toxic as hell cesspool people turned this into)
My little brother has epilepsy, and after a few suggestions from the community, we decided to have him not play the game until something is done.
Behavior should do something. Not allow rapid clicking flashlights, turn down the lights in the institute, eliminate the flashing lights off gens (failed skill checks, blast mine, etc)
I'm sorry for your cousin, I really am.
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Frankly I haven’t read your whole post (and I was kinda wondering if you actually meant to tag me as most stuff I have mentioned myself) but something caught my eyes:
I absolutely cannot stand when people blame the victim in regards to any type of illness or disability
its not blaming if people say that a person has to take precaution on their own. That doesn’t mean the person gets blamed or that the company isn’t to blame at all.
and again neither I nor anyone ever said that a warning shouldn’t be added or that BHVR shouldn’t fix the flashlight issues. I am actually Someone that is pretty much permanently asking for accessibility options and settings in all regards and have mentioned it often in my feedback for the devs.
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It’s the DBD forums. Are we really surprised?
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that line was the tldr response to your post. You know that the vast majority of games have a near non-existant chance to cause any symptoms in any forms of epilepsy, right? Many people rely on those warnings to not only find out what the potential triggers are before playing, but also some people use them to set up "test sessions" with other people who can take care of them during any type of reaction that might happen. If people had to research every single game (let alone ones that evolve over time) it would be enough to make most just quit playing games entirely. There are actually even sites designed to review accessibility in games, and they often look specifically for those things to clarify for the readers. Flashlight macros are not an intentional part of the game, so they wouldn't even be found in those reviews. Likewise, things like the flashlight blind effect have changed over time, so their answer in 2018 might be different than in 2020. The onus is entirely on the company creating and/or maintaining the product.
Note how I was one of the voices about how much colorblindness was overlooked in the game (both in design and options) for a long ass time, but thats because things like colorblindness generally can't affect the end user's physical health. I share part of the blame for playing a game that has poor (upgraded from non-existent!) colorblindness accommodation. The impact to my health is null, and it is something that is not related to external stimuli causing harm. While I might very much want them to improve the accommodation provided, even when there was none it was harmless.
Once potential harm comes into the equation, the formula becomes more binary. If the worst that happened was a minor headache, it would still be shared (though obviously shifted) and the worse the possible consequences, the more the party that can cause harm through negligence is solely to blame. Especially since, again, these problems can fall through the cracks of even their own research.
Agreeing with the other stuff I discussed is great and all, but again, victim blaming not only makes the situation far worse for them, but in cases like this isn't even remotely accurate.
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