Let's speak clearly of the "hatch issue": from definitions to remedies

Entità · November 2018

The hatch is one of the most discussed game mechanics in the Community, each complaining about it for different reasons and asking for different corrections. Since I think developers do not have time to read ten billion threads to find all the suggestions that all users have elaborated on a particular issue, collecting the whole debate in one central thread could help users to compare each other and developers to draw the best ideas from the heap.

So I ask you to answer constructively, analytically and without controversy the following questions:
1) PROBLEM DEFINITION: What is the "hatch issue" for you? Do you dispute its existence or its operation?
2) PROBLEM ANALYSIS: What specific injustices do you believe derive from the existence or from the actual operation of the hatch?
3) PROBLEM SOLUTION: Which specific and balanced remedies do you propose to fix the problem of the hatch?

Now I will tell you my point of view. The hatch should be reworked, otherwise the endgame with one survivor left behind can be problematic. This is what happens: survivor reaches the hatch, they don't jump, the killer doesn't hit them, they indicate the killer to go away with their arm, the killer answers NO by moving their body left and right, teabag, false attack and the dancing event goes on until somebody needs going to the bathroom and let the opponent win! It lacks of decency, destroys the atmosphere of the game: a real stalemate!

I wrote a lot of proposals to guarantee an adventurous endgame:
1) if the killer is allowed to close the hatch and does so, then:
1A) another one spawns elsewhere;
1B) the gates are powered;
1C) a chest with a Mist Key inside spawns somewhere;
2) there can be two hatches, far at least 48 meters from each other:
2A) the hatches open alternatively according to casual timers;
2B) if the killer closes the first, the second opens;
2C) if the killer closes the second, the first reopens;
3) when the killer and the last survivor stay near the hatch more than X seconds, then:
3A) the Entity comes from the sky to refresh the map, putting the killer, the survivor and the hatch in new positions, far at least 48 meters from each other;
3B) the killer can mori the survivor and the survivor can escape without being grabbed: the quickest or smartest player wins;
3C) the game ends with the victory of the player with the worse rank (because they have been able to draw against a better opponent).

Alternatively, it has been proposed to add a Black Generator, linked to the appearance or opening of the hatch. In this regard, my ideas are as follows:
4) the Black Gen should:
4A) make the hatch appear, not open it;
4B) be equal to the others in the eyes of the killer: only the survivors could notice the difference (they see its black Aura and have a special symbol of its full repair in the HUD);
4C) not contribute to the opening of the exit gates;
5) then, the hatch appears when one of the following conditions is met:
5A) the exit gates are powered;
5B) a number of generators equal to the number of survivors and the Black Gen have been repaired (same number now, but less convenient, because the Black Gen does not power the gates, thus remaining a secondary objective, which drains time to the survivors);
5C) a survivor uses a rainbow map or a common map with the appropriate add-on within the range (they see just its Aura).

friendlykillermain · November 2018

oh boy mega post coming hold on

Master · November 2018

Problem from killers perspective:

Hatch is a safe zone for the survivor,if you attack you lmmediately lose (unless myers insta kill). The speed burst after an hit enlarges the safe zone anymore. You have no power at all and need to wait for the survivor.
If you try to play tactically and slugg the last two guys, one of them can simply dc since there is no punishment for it and the other guy gets hatch for free (particular in swf).

Problem from the survivors perspective:

In a hatch standoff there is nothing you can do besides moving away from your escape location and (most likely) do several gens which is a pretty hopeless scenario in most cases.
Also teammates will surener the game if they think that it's not going well and camp the hatch (I even saw this when 4 survivors were alive) which is basically the same as a ragequit since he is doing literally nothing.

Summarized: the hatch mechanic is a mechanic that needs zero skill,encourages going afk and also is cause of several dc's

How to fix?
Personally I liked the idea that hatch gets removed completely and that there is some kind of showdown, the devs mentoned the idea to reveal the survivors aura and let a timer tick down until the gates open.

This way the killer Still has a chance, can try to play tactically block of paths etc.

The survivor doesn't simply get a free escape, he has to work for it and earn it.

HellDescent · November 2018

Hatch is never going to be changed, since they will be taking away a pity escape from 80% of the player base, thus pissing them off. They don't have the balls to do that.

friendlykillermain · November 2018

when your draft is eaten by a power off hold on

friendlykillermain · November 2018

1 hatch issue for me is of course the fact survivors can almost always cheat the killer out of a 4k
from suicideing on hook to give hatch to dcing to give hatch from hatch standoffs their is nothing the killer can do and slugging has major counters
2the fact that a survior is invincible near the hatch is very unfair unless you have 8 tokens stbfl you will watch them slide in

hatch only appears when 3 gens are done and 1 survivor is left or all gens are done the hatch will spawn closed if a gen is completed the hatch becomes powered and takes 5 seconds to open if a survivor is hit within the radius of the hatch say 5 meters then the hatch will close and will have to be reopened standing still near the hatch will cause crows to appear 50% faster

friendlykillermain · November 2018

@friendlykillermain said:
1 hatch issue for me is of course the fact survivors can almost always cheat the killer out of a 4k
from suicideing on hook to give hatch to dcing to give hatch from hatch standoffs their is nothing the killer can do and slugging has major counters
2the fact that a survior is invincible near the hatch is very unfair unless you have 8 tokens stbfl you will watch them slide in

hatch only appears when 3 gens are done and 1 survivor is left or all gens are done the hatch will spawn closed if a gen is completed the hatch becomes powered and takes 5 seconds to open if a survivor is hit within the radius of the hatch say 5 meters then the hatch will close and will have to be reopened standing still near the hatch will cause crows to appear 50% faster

wanted to make a longer post but i dont want to rewrite it all

BigBadPiggy · November 2018

Hatch standoffs are my problem. I think a way to fix it is to have a timer to when the hatch spawns and opens. It would encourage the survivor to try and do gens or anything else. It could decrease the chances of hatch standoffs I think.

ReneAensland · November 2018

Survivors should become Exposed while in the radius of the Hatch Sound.
Killers cannot see Auras while in the Hatch Sound Radius, Eliminating Bitter Murmur if the survivors decides to do Gens.
Or something.

Entità · November 2018

@friendlykillermain @Master @HellDescent @BigBadPiggy @ReneAensland Do not be frightened by the long opening post: it's just a list of possible alternative mechanics, you can read comfortably in a matter of minutes and add or change whatever you want, giving your reasons.

Rebel_Raven · November 2018

You know, I don't have a huge problem with the hatch.

I've gotten hatch plays, failed hatch plays, stopped hatch plays and lost a kill to hatch plays.

Is it perfect? Not really, but it's better than just having to give up as the last survivor. Someone would have to be stupid to think a survivor could last without it. Especially as the last person having to do multiple gens.
Killers tick me off by seeming entitled to the last kill when there are ways to prevent hatch plays, and they ignore the fact that survivors can be grabbed during their jump so they don't have to mind game it.

At the same time, survivors get so focused on the hatch that it screws up everything often enough in either stubbornly clinging to it, refusing to do gens, or refusing to mind game. You do know if you're healthy you can get hit in a wide area around the hatch and still make it in? Pretty sure NOED doesn't activate until the gens are done.
And I've seen survivors jockey for the hatch play instead of just doing the gate.
I had an ######### survivor sit and wait in the gate room, flashlight blind me, run back into the map, miss the hatch just outside the gate, run around for several minutes looking for it, and found it just before I told him where it was. Worst part? It was during the Halloween event where I was letting survivors escape. I was being nice!

It's dumb. I'm sure there is an equitable solution that isn't a death trap for survivors coz of arbitrary rules, and not something that just appears next to the last survivor.
Pretty sure no one that mains either side will think of it, though.

ReneAensland · November 2018

Or just have Survivors do 3 gens instead of 2 for the Hatch to pop up.

Wolf74 · November 2018

@Entità said:

2) PROBLEM ANALYSIS: What specific injustices do you believe derive from the existence or from the actual operation of the hatch?

I am just focusing on this one.
The injustice is the following:
The hatch is a mechanic to avoid a 4 kill match and give the last survivor a chance to escape without doing the remaining gens or gates with a clear advantage after the survivor found the hatch.
So it is a kind of a safety net.
But where is the safety net for killer?
Where is the game mechanic that avoids all 4 escaping?

MhhBurgers · November 2018

@Wolf74 said:

@Entità said:

2) PROBLEM ANALYSIS: What specific injustices do you believe derive from the existence or from the actual operation of the hatch?

I am just focusing on this one.
The injustice is the following:
The hatch is a mechanic to avoid a 4 kill match and give the last survivor a chance to escape without doing the remaining gens or gates with a clear advantage after the survivor found the hatch.
So it is a kind of a safety net.
But where is the safety net for killer?
Where is the game mechanic that avoids all 4 escaping?

this, i can understand the hatch being there but at the same time there's no safety for the killer

friendlykillermain · November 2018

@MhhBurgers said:

@Wolf74 said:

@Entità said:

2) PROBLEM ANALYSIS: What specific injustices do you believe derive from the existence or from the actual operation of the hatch?

I am just focusing on this one.
The injustice is the following:
The hatch is a mechanic to avoid a 4 kill match and give the last survivor a chance to escape without doing the remaining gens or gates with a clear advantage after the survivor found the hatch.
So it is a kind of a safety net.
But where is the safety net for killer?
Where is the game mechanic that avoids all 4 escaping?

this, i can understand the hatch being there but at the same time there's no safety for the killer

this i think perfectly states the hatches injustice

Fibijean · November 2018

@Wolf74 said:

@Entità said:

2) PROBLEM ANALYSIS: What specific injustices do you believe derive from the existence or from the actual operation of the hatch?

I am just focusing on this one.
The injustice is the following:
The hatch is a mechanic to avoid a 4 kill match and give the last survivor a chance to escape without doing the remaining gens or gates with a clear advantage after the survivor found the hatch.
So it is a kind of a safety net.
But where is the safety net for killer?
Where is the game mechanic that avoids all 4 escaping?

That would be NOED. People get extra altruistic after the gates are powered. Otherwise, just... playing well? The thing is, the last survivor isn't necessarily last because they played badly. They could have played really well and just had a bad team. So it makes more sense that they get a chance to escape. But if all 4 survivors escape as killer, that usually just means you played a bad game. (Also it's lore-friendly - lore-wise, the hatch exists to encourage hope in survivors because the entity feeds on the hope of survivors. They don't get anything out of hopeful killers.)

Just to be clear, I do think the hatch mechanics as they stand are problematic. I just don't agree that it's a "safety net" - that would imply that the survivor played badly but it's okay because hatch, but usually it's the other way around: their team played badly, but they still have the opportunity to earn their reward.

SmokePotion · November 2018

@Entità said:
The hatch is one of the most discussed game mechanics in the Community, each complaining about it for different reasons and asking for different corrections. Since I think developers do not have time to read ten billion threads to find all the suggestions that all users have elaborated on a particular issue, collecting the whole debate in one central thread could help users to compare each other and developers to draw the best ideas from the heap.

So I ask you to answer constructively, analytically and without controversy the following questions:
1) PROBLEM DEFINITION: What is the "hatch issue" for you? Do you dispute its existence or its operation?
2) PROBLEM ANALYSIS: What specific injustices do you believe derive from the existence or from the actual operation of the hatch?
3) PROBLEM SOLUTION: Which specific and balanced remedies do you propose to fix the problem of the hatch?

1: The hatch is DBD Jesus. You can do nothing all life and get saved in the end through no effort of your own.

1: When the key is used, you immediately open the hatch and jump in.

1: It can spawn even though the gates are available, giving survivors 3 escapes.

2: Survivors that did nothing but hide all game, and not do gens or save anyone, can hatch out on their teams work.

2: Survivors can hatch out mid chase with gens left. I've personally had more then one do it just out of my lunge range. Not that it would matter if they were in my lunge range. Still not close enough to interupt and grab.

2: Honestly, im not going into the injustices, it's just to long, and subject to opinion.

3: Require a key for the hatch, always. And put a keyhook in the basement that spawns the key at the start of the match. If a survivor feels the match is going bad, they can grab it. And if they die, the other survivors got to find it, but they know the key is available to them.

3: Require a progress bar to open the hatch, similar to opening the gate. It makes no sense you can open the hatch while injured, intoxicated, and in a chase, with perfect sure hands. Maybe even throw a skillcheck in there, but that might be to much, but worth playtesting IMHO.

Wolf74 · November 2018

@Fibijean said:

@Wolf74 said:

@Entità said:

2) PROBLEM ANALYSIS: What specific injustices do you believe derive from the existence or from the actual operation of the hatch?

I am just focusing on this one.
The injustice is the following:
The hatch is a mechanic to avoid a 4 kill match and give the last survivor a chance to escape without doing the remaining gens or gates with a clear advantage after the survivor found the hatch.
So it is a kind of a safety net.
But where is the safety net for killer?
Where is the game mechanic that avoids all 4 escaping?

That would be NOED. People get extra altruistic after the gates are powered. Otherwise, just... playing well? The thing is, the last survivor isn't necessarily last because they played badly. They could have played really well and just had a bad team. So it makes more sense that they get a chance to escape. But if all 4 survivors escape as killer, that usually just means you played a bad game. (Also it's lore-friendly - lore-wise, the hatch exists to encourage hope in survivors because the entity feeds on the hope of survivors. They don't get anything out of hopeful killers.)

Just to be clear, I do think the hatch mechanics as they stand are problematic. I just don't agree that it's a "safety net" - that would imply that the survivor played badly but it's okay because hatch, but usually it's the other way around: their team played badly, but they still have the opportunity to earn their reward.

No. You can't compare a perk that a killer choose to spend a slot on with a free mechanic like the hatch.
The survivor get that mechanic for FREE.

Fibijean · November 2018

@Wolf74 said:

@Fibijean said:

@Wolf74 said:

@Entità said:

2) PROBLEM ANALYSIS: What specific injustices do you believe derive from the existence or from the actual operation of the hatch?

I am just focusing on this one.
The injustice is the following:
The hatch is a mechanic to avoid a 4 kill match and give the last survivor a chance to escape without doing the remaining gens or gates with a clear advantage after the survivor found the hatch.
So it is a kind of a safety net.
But where is the safety net for killer?
Where is the game mechanic that avoids all 4 escaping?

That would be NOED. People get extra altruistic after the gates are powered. Otherwise, just... playing well? The thing is, the last survivor isn't necessarily last because they played badly. They could have played really well and just had a bad team. So it makes more sense that they get a chance to escape. But if all 4 survivors escape as killer, that usually just means you played a bad game. (Also it's lore-friendly - lore-wise, the hatch exists to encourage hope in survivors because the entity feeds on the hope of survivors. They don't get anything out of hopeful killers.)

Just to be clear, I do think the hatch mechanics as they stand are problematic. I just don't agree that it's a "safety net" - that would imply that the survivor played badly but it's okay because hatch, but usually it's the other way around: their team played badly, but they still have the opportunity to earn their reward.

No. You can't compare a perk that a killer choose to spend a slot on with a free mechanic like the hatch.
The survivor get that mechanic for FREE.

Yes, but the hatch's existence guarantees escapes less often than NOED guarantees kills. The survivor may or may not have a clear advantage after finding the hatch, that's debatable, but the killer has the clear advantage in searching for the hatch. Sometimes, the survivor gets found before they find the hatch. Sometimes they get outplayed in standoff. Whereas with NOED, you just hit one person after the last generator is done, which is not at all difficult to do, and bam, instant free kill 95% of the time.

You asked if there was a game mechanic that prevented all 4 survivors from escaping at the last minute. NOED is that mechanic. Just because it costs something doesn't mean it's not a game mechanic. Also, as I explained, NOED is much more of a safety net than the hatch, since the necessity for the former usually means that the killer played badly, whereas the necessity for a hatch escape often just means that their team played badly and screwed them over. Not always, but often enough to be significant. A survivor's loss can be the fault of other survivors. A killer's loss is no one's fault but their own. So they may have different pros and cons, but the hatch is, at the very least, as much the undeserved free win that you're making it out to be as NOED is.

powerbats · November 2018

Ok lets stop with the histrionics here, the hatch isn't a free escape in any way shape or form and you all know it.

In order for the hatch to spawn at least 2 gens must be completed thus it's not a free escape in way, shape or form.
The survivor has to actually get to the hatch and make it out, thus it's not a free escape in way, shape or form.

3.The survivors don't get the hatch mechanic for free, they have to do number 1 and have 2 happen. Thus they don't get the hatch mechanic for free in any way, shape or form

So since we know that 1 and 2 and 3 are true that means the hatch isn't an escape in any way, shape or form.

Lastly all you killer mains complaining that it's free, you've once again been proven to be wrong and are doing nothing but make yourselves look foolish by repeating that disproved claim.

Carpemortum · November 2018

powerbats said:

Ok lets stop with the histrionics here, the hatch isn't a free escape in any way shape or form and you all know it.

In order for the hatch to spawn at least 2 gens must be completed thus it's not a free escape in way, shape or form.

The survivor has to actually get to the hatch and make it out, thus it's not a free escape in way, shape or form.

3.The survivors don't get the hatch mechanic for free, they have to do number 1 and have 2 happen. Thus they don't get the hatch mechanic for free in any way, shape or form

So since we know that 1 and 2 and 3 are true that means the hatch isn't an escape in any way, shape or form.

Lastly all you killer mains complaining that it's free, you've once again been proven to be wrong and are doing nothing but make yourselves look foolish by repeating that disproved claim.

It could be considered a free escape when the survivor that escaped had nothing to do with the 2 gens done.

powerbats · November 2018

@Carpemortum said:

It could be considered a free escape when the survivor that escaped had nothing to do with the 2 gens done.

True but until the post game scoreboard comes up no one knows so it can't be called a free escape, It's also still technically not a free escape since 2 gens had to be done, even if someone else did nothing. The person who did nothing still has to actually make it out alive.

If the person who did nothing escapes the killer obviously never found them which is technically a good play by them. It's a scummy play but still a good one for escaping.

Raptorrotas · November 2018

How can it be an earned escape if up to 3 generators of 5 aren't done yet.
Thats like saying the killer instantly "wins"(read: "round ends instantly") once hes sacced 2 people.

powerbats · November 2018

@Raptorrotas said:
How can it be an earned escape if up to 3 generators of 5 aren't done yet.
Thats like saying the killer instantly "wins"(read: "round ends instantly") once hes sacced 2 people.

Because the Entity feeds off the survivors hopes, if there's no hope of escape it can't feed. So if the survivors get 2 gens done 1 has a CHANCE of getting out. Which feeds the entity and allows that survivor to be put back into the trial yet again for more feeding off of.

Also the killer has technically won if he gets at elat 2 ppl and most definitely has if he gets 3, remember you're not entitled to that 4th kill.

Wolf74 · November 2018

@powerbats said:
Ok lets stop with the histrionics here, the hatch isn't a free escape in any way shape or form and you all know it.

In order for the hatch to spawn at least 2 gens must be completed thus it's not a free escape in way, shape or form.

The survivor has to actually get to the hatch and make it out, thus it's not a free escape in way, shape or form.

3.The survivors don't get the hatch mechanic for free, they have to do number 1 and have 2 happen. Thus they don't get the hatch mechanic for free in any way, shape or form

So since we know that 1 and 2 and 3 are true that means the hatch isn't an escape in any way, shape or form.

Lastly all you killer mains complaining that it's free, you've once again been proven to be wrong and are doing nothing but make yourselves look foolish by repeating that disproved claim.

It's funny how you call your point "true" and think everyone else is "proven wrong".
Sorry, but simply no.
The hatch is a FREE mechanic.
The survivor that takes the hatch does not have to have touched ANY gen to get it.
If the team overall was unable to do at least 2 gens before 3 are dead, the killer actually DESERVED that 4K anyway.
What you call facts, is just your opinion.
And no matter how you twist it, killer have no free kill mechanic in case they screw up.
Bottom line:
Hatch robs the killer his 4 kill.No mechanic can rob the survivor their 4 escape.

powerbats · November 2018

@Wolf74 said:

It's funny how you call your point "true" and think everyone else is "proven wrong".
Sorry, but simply no.
The hatch is a FREE mechanic.
The survivor that takes the hatch does not have to have touched ANY gen to get it.
If the team overall was unable to do at least 2 gens before 3 are dead, the killer actually DESERVED that 4K anyway.
What you call facts, is just your opinion.
And no matter how you twist it, killer have no free kill mechanic in case they screw up.
Bottom line:
Hatch robs the killer his 4 kill.No mechanic can rob the survivor their 4 escape.

It's funny how you try and twist things to fit your false narrative which doesn't the fact that it's still FALSE.

Free:

Without cost or payment, hmmn the survivors have to do something like power 2 gens and 3 have to die. There's a cost and payment right there.

"Not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes." Well considering you have to depend on others dying and or helping do gens as well as the killer not downing you. So that definitely doesn't sound free..

"Not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded." Hmmn the killer can keep you from the hatch. That doesn't sound like it's free.

So no matter how you twist it the hatch isn't a free escape and the hatch doesn't rob you of anything, you're not entitled to that 4th free kill. You want that kill you go find that survivor and you down them, you don't deserve it for free.

If the killer screws up that's their fault not the survivors fault because you let 2 gens get done. also not doing 2 gens is a mechanic that can rob a single survivor of getting the hatch.

So there you have it, I've countered each of your specious claims with facts, which I know you hate facts and all but remember YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO A FREE KILL.

Wolf74 · November 2018

@powerbats said:

It's funny how you try and twist things to fit your false narrative which doesn't the fact that it's still FALSE.

Go to your bathroom and read that line to the mirror.
Repeat it 12 times and come back.

Raptorrotas · November 2018

Theoretically 1 surv can escape with only using the hatch at the end.
It's theoretically free.

Which cannot be said about a 4th kill.

Between good survs and good killers, isnt it common for 1-3 gens to be done in the time 1 chase takes place? Hardly fair to call the killler out for screwing up if he mechanically is unable to be everywhere at the same time.
Especially since the altruism only kicks in after the first hook.

Fibijean · November 2018

@Wolf74 said:

@powerbats said:

It's funny how you try and twist things to fit your false narrative which doesn't the fact that it's still FALSE.

Go to your bathroom and read that line to the mirror.
Repeat it 12 times and come back.

@powerbats I feel like this about sums up how much reasonable discussion you're going to get at this point.

powerbats · November 2018

@Fibijean said:

@Wolf74 said:

@powerbats said:

It's funny how you try and twist things to fit your false narrative which doesn't the fact that it's still FALSE.

Go to your bathroom and read that line to the mirror.
Repeat it 12 times and come back.

@powerbats I feel like this about sums up how much reasonable discussion you're going to get at this point.

Agreed, he doesn't like it when he can't troll his way out or counter facts eh doesn't like. It's the same old story from him every time though, counter his argument with facts and logic and then he tries to twist it.

Wolf74 · November 2018

@Fibijean @powerbats
Your both wrong, but it doesn't make sense to get in a prolonged argument with guys like you.
You won't change your point of view anyway, even if confronted with facts or logic.
I am not answering you guys to change your minds, because I can't do that. That's proven a lot of times in this forum. You guys will twist logic upside down to fit your view and in return will blame me doing it.
That's why I at some point I refuse to go on.
I just answer for other people that read this threads.
Others can read your version and mine and draw their own conclusion.
The problem is that you guys want to "win", because you know that in any internet debate the most stubborn will "win". You just have to repeat your arguments, no matter how often they have been debunkt, and reset any debate after a couple of pages in an endless circlejerk.
So enjoy, you "won". ^^

Raptorrotas · November 2018

Its entirely up to the survivor to initiate any hatch standoff, because theyre thinking themselves entitled to a quick hatch instead of doing their real objective.

benzos · November 2018

the real objective is to escape with what the devs put in the game, and the devs put the hatch in because they want to give hope to a bad situation that doesn't even always result in escape. how can you say escaping with a game mechanic that the devs put in game themselves is entitlement by survivors? lol.

Raptorrotas · November 2018

benzos said:

the real objective is to escape with what the devs put in the game, and the devs put the hatch in because they want to give hope to a bad situation that doesn't even always result in escape. how can you say escaping with a game mechanic that the devs put in game themselves is entitlement by survivors? lol.

Yet Killers arent allowed to camp, slug, certain killers or certain perks
You just proved some points about entitlement.

Other than that i was explaining that the entirity of the hazch standoff happens because survivors don't want to risk the normal objective of doing generators.
As far i know survivors commonly already stop doing gens once the 3rd is hooked.

Because durrvivors have the choice between generators and the hatch, theyre at fault for any standoff. They couldve gone do gens if they see the "darn hatchcamper", but they choose the shortcut.

Once killers find the survivor, his objective, he has absolutely no reason to go somewhere else. And like with hooks, survivors make camping work.

You know, once the third survivor is sacrificed and the killer is in the basement or let's say at the hatch, the last survivor totes should be automatically sacrificed while giving the killer 2k bp bonus additionally to his 'No one escape'-bonus.
(In case you didn't notice, that is how the hatch currently works)

benzos · November 2018

@Raptorrotas said:
benzos said:

the real objective is to escape with what the devs put in the game, and the devs put the hatch in because they want to give hope to a bad situation that doesn't even always result in escape. how can you say escaping with a game mechanic that the devs put in game themselves is entitlement by survivors? lol.

Yet Killers arent allowed to camp, slug, certain killers or certain perks
You just proved some points about entitlement.

Other than that i was explaining that the entirity of the hazch standoff happens because survivors don't want to risk the normal objective of doing generators.
As far i know survivors commonly already stop doing gens once the 3rd is hooked.

Because durrvivors have the choice between generators and the hatch, theyre at fault for any standoff. They couldve gone do gens if they see the "darn hatchcamper", but they choose the shortcut.

Once killers find the survivor, his objective, he has absolutely no reason to go somewhere else. And like with hooks, survivors make camping work.

You know, once the third survivor is sacrificed and the killer is in the basement or let's say at the hatch, the last survivor totes should be automatically sacrificed while giving the killer 2k bp bonus additionally to his 'No one escape'-bonus.
(In case you didn't notice, that is how the hatch currently works)

who says they're not allowed to camp slug or use whatever they want that's in the game? the same kind of people that say you can't do gens quickly and lable it genrush?

you're right survivors have a choice between generators or hatch. they can use whatever they want. so what? why do you say they can't use something in the game? are you the type of person that says they're not allowed to use something in game? hmmmmm.

i dont' care about the standoff. if both people want to do it, then ok. when someone doesnt want to do it, then they give up. nobody is entitled to anything.

Fibijean · November 2018

@Wolf74 With all due respect mate, "sorry but no" and just stating your original point over and over ("the hatch is free and you're wrong") has nothing to do with facts or logic. We presented new points and new evidence to back up our arguments, while you simply restated your initial argument every time. But you're right in saying that there's not much point continuing with someone like that - we've all made our case and anyone who cares to can read the points discussed and draw their own conclusions.

apropos · November 2018

The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.
One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.
One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.
Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.
Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.
Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

Rebel_Raven · November 2018

@apropos said:
The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.

One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.

One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.

Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.

Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.

Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

You really think a survivor has a chance to get the RBT off and get to the hatch in normal gameplay?

Wolf74 · November 2018

@Fibijean said:
@Wolf74 With all due respect mate, "sorry but no" and just stating your original point over and over ("the hatch is free and you're wrong") has nothing to do with facts or logic. We presented new points and new evidence to back up our arguments, while you simply restated your initial argument every time. But you're right in saying that there's not much point continuing with someone like that - we've all made our case and anyone who cares to can read the points discussed and draw their own conclusions.

Because you didn't bring up anything new.
But no worries, I already declared you the "winner". Enjoy.

BACKSTABBER · November 2018

Devs wont address neither hatch neither DS, end of discussion

survs got too much power in forums cuz they are x4 more than killers

apropos · November 2018

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:
The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.

One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.

One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.

Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.

Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.

Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

You really think a survivor has a chance to get the RBT off and get to the hatch in normal gameplay?

I'm not sure why you think they have to get it off then go to the hatch, they will have three exits to choose from in the given scenario. Consider that the point of the RBT is that the survivor is restricted from leaving the trial until the RBT is removed. The hatch is an exit just like the exit gates, so it shouldn't be treated any differently. Considering that the RBT has been balanced against regular exits, and that the hatch is an exit all the same, I don't see why it should have some special power to negate reverse bear traps.

Rebel_Raven · November 2018

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:
The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.

One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.

One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.

Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.

Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.

Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

You really think a survivor has a chance to get the RBT off and get to the hatch in normal gameplay?

I'm not sure why you think they have to get it off then go to the hatch, they will have three exits to choose from in the given scenario. Consider that the point of the RBT is that the survivor is restricted from leaving the trial until the RBT is removed. The hatch is an exit just like the exit gates, so it shouldn't be treated any differently. Considering that the RBT has been balanced against regular exits, and that the hatch is an exit all the same, I don't see why it should have some special power to negate reverse bear traps.

You're not sure why I think they have to get off the RBT then go to the hatch? Then you explain that if they don't, it should kill them if they try to exit via the gate, and feel the hatch should as well?
You lost me.
You said the hatch circumventing abilities like RBT are unfair.
If it killed the survivor same as trying to get through the gate, they have to take it off before trying or Game Over.
Thus I ask, do you think the average survivor, on their own, can take off the RBT, then get to the hatch, or have to look for the hatch to get to it?

PigNRun · November 2018

There are just two changes which would make the Hatch actually fair:

Let the Killer grab the Survivor instantly from the hatch. I find it really unfair how the Survivor can escape with just one click, while the killer was to do three with a considerable time between each. And, no, grabbing mid-animation means its way harder for the killer.

Alternatively, make the hatch interaction take longer. For example, change the animation so that it takes the same amount of time of running between the exit gate and the actual exit.

The other problem, increase the requirements for the hatch to spawn. For new players, 2 Generators are a lot, which is why I find it an outdated feature. 2 Generators are nothing. Thats not "work", when you can pop them before the first or second chase even ends, regardless of how good the killer might be. Add another objective (like the key suggested earlier), make it 3 or 4 Generators repaired, I dont know.

That is at least in the current system. Maybe we will see changes to game progression eventually, and then I would consider hatch a rightfully "fair" escape.

Another solution would be to make changes based on rank. If you are matched with unskilled low rank players, you will have the hatch working the same way as now. Higher ranks will have tougher requirements.

apropos · November 2018

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:
The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.

One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.

One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.

Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.

Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.

Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

You really think a survivor has a chance to get the RBT off and get to the hatch in normal gameplay?

I'm not sure why you think they have to get it off then go to the hatch, they will have three exits to choose from in the given scenario. Consider that the point of the RBT is that the survivor is restricted from leaving the trial until the RBT is removed. The hatch is an exit just like the exit gates, so it shouldn't be treated any differently. Considering that the RBT has been balanced against regular exits, and that the hatch is an exit all the same, I don't see why it should have some special power to negate reverse bear traps.

You're not sure why I think they have to get off the RBT then go to the hatch? Then you explain that if they don't, it should kill them if they try to exit via the gate, and feel the hatch should as well?
You lost me.
You said the hatch circumventing abilities like RBT are unfair.
If it killed the survivor same as trying to get through the gate, they have to take it off before trying or Game Over.
Thus I ask, do you think the average survivor, on their own, can take off the RBT, then get to the hatch, or have to look for the hatch to get to it?

Do you know how the reverse bear traps work? I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm serious. And yes, I'm 100% certain that survivors are capable of removing their RBT, and then escaping through the exit gate, or the hatch.

OogieBoogie · November 2018

-hatch spawns closed and survivor has to perform a channel to open it
-it will spawn when there's one survivor left regardless of the number of gens done
-time it takes to open the hatch depends on how many gens are left before gates are powered (base time of 5 seconds with 6 seconds added per gen)
-once opened, the survivor jumps in automatically
-once one survivor is left and 3 or less gens remain, all chests on the map reset
-one of the chests will have a special key that can open the hatch instantly
-this key is dropped if struck by the killer's M1 attack (to force the survivor to play smart instead of just bee-lining to the hatch once they have the key)
-final girl/guy gets special bonuses depending on how many gens are left:
*5: can self-heal and self-revive; +25% stackable bonus to bloodpoint gain for each gen that gets completed as the final survivor
*4: non-aura tracking killer perks/abilities such as Whispers and Stridor are disabled
*3: +25% healing, repair and cleansing speed; scratch marks fade 3 seconds faster (stacks with Lightweight)
*2: aura-related killer perks/abilities are disabled
*1: all pallets reset/respawn
*0: immune to insta-down (does single hit of damage instead); survivor can be mori'd when downed

Rebel_Raven · November 2018

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:

@Rebel_Raven said:

@apropos said:
The hatch should operate around the trial ending in a tie, which the devs said happens when two survivors have died and two have escaped. To balance around that idea, the hatch should only open for the final survivor, if at least half of the other survivors have been killed/sacrificed/disconnected. A few examples:

One survivor died, two escape; hatch does not open. Survivors have secured half of the victory.

One survivor dies, one escapes by opening a black lock; hatch doesn't open until one of the two left dies.

One survivor dies, one disconnects, two are alive; hatch opens if either of the two left escapes or dies.

Two survivors die, one escapes by opening the black lock; hatch stays open for fourth survivor.

Two survivors die, two are alive; hatch doesnt open until one escapes, or dies.

Three survivors escape; hatch turns into a mimic, opens, and eats the last survivor when they try to escape through it.

As it stands now, it's unfair because the hatch can be used to circumvent certain killer powers, like the Pig's reverse bear traps; three survivors escape, the last survivor with an RBT simply jumps through the hatch and dodges death. That alone should be fixed, regardless of any changes.

You really think a survivor has a chance to get the RBT off and get to the hatch in normal gameplay?

I'm not sure why you think they have to get it off then go to the hatch, they will have three exits to choose from in the given scenario. Consider that the point of the RBT is that the survivor is restricted from leaving the trial until the RBT is removed. The hatch is an exit just like the exit gates, so it shouldn't be treated any differently. Considering that the RBT has been balanced against regular exits, and that the hatch is an exit all the same, I don't see why it should have some special power to negate reverse bear traps.

You're not sure why I think they have to get off the RBT then go to the hatch? Then you explain that if they don't, it should kill them if they try to exit via the gate, and feel the hatch should as well?
You lost me.
You said the hatch circumventing abilities like RBT are unfair.
If it killed the survivor same as trying to get through the gate, they have to take it off before trying or Game Over.
Thus I ask, do you think the average survivor, on their own, can take off the RBT, then get to the hatch, or have to look for the hatch to get to it?

Do you know how the reverse bear traps work? I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm serious. And yes, I'm 100% certain that survivors are capable of removing their RBT, and then escaping through the exit gate, or the hatch.

Yes, I know how they work. When the trial starts each trap is assigned a jigsaw box that removes the RBT. They have 2 min 30 seconds from the time gen activates to find that box.
If they don't, it activates, killing them.
The RBT timer does not run during chases, being hooked, or being slugged.
It goes off at a certain proximity to the exit regardless. It can be bypassed through a hatch escape.
Basically.

I didn't ask if you thought survivors could get a trap off, and escape. It's obvious that as a group, they can.
I'm asking how realistic you think it is for a lone survivor, 3 of the 4 sacrificed, or exited, to get the right Jigsaw Box, find the hatch, and escape with a not potato Pig player after them?

I'm not trying to be mean about it, I just want to get some idea of how good you think the average survivor can handle the situation.

AlwaysInAGoodShape · November 2018

@powerbats

The hatch conditions are theoretically not free, but practically are.
You need a VERY suicidal team in order to have 3 of them die before you have 2 gens done. (80 seconds or at worst 160 seconds.)

I am often able to do is all alone, and you have 3 other teammates!
What you call "Conditions" are basically non-conditions, as much as you can say the hatch isn't a free mechanic because you need a copy of this game installed before you can use the hatch.
These type of conditions are almost always met, or are nearly deliberately avoided.

As an answer to the main post:
----------------------------------------------------------PROBLEM DEFINITION----------------------------------------------------------

Once your teammates die, winning becomes significantly harder, making you dependant on strangers, which isn't fun.
Generator REGRESSION disables any opportunity for low-survivor-count generator progression and stealth gameplay.
This lead to a hatch mechanic which caused a giant disparity in winrate between 2 survivors and 1 survivor:

(Conditions with multiple generators measured in Survivors Alive)
4 Surv = Winnable
3 Surv = Winnable but harder
2 Surv = Barely winnable
1 Surv = Practically impossible

into

4 Surv = Winnable
3 Surv = Winnable but harder
2 Surv = Barely winnable
1 Surv = Easily winnable.

meaning that if there were 2 survivors, they would wait out the death of another.

It created the hatch standoff, where it would require 1 to be a "sweety" and let the other win or get the kill.

----------------------------------------------------------PROBLEM ANALYSIS------------------------------------------------------------

ANALYSIS to problem 1:
The main issue here is that there is a great impact on the total survivor's efficiency once a survivor dies. If you thought losing 25% of your working force wasn't enough... it is actually worse.

There are multiple stages in the match cycle:
Stage 1: All 4 survivors are working on Gens. 100% efficiency.
Stage 2: 1 Survivor has been found and is now looping: 75% efficiency.
Stage 3: 1 Survivor has been caught and requires another survivor for the rescue and heal. 50% efficiency.
Stage 4: It is possible that a new survivor has been found and lasts long enough for the other surv to be healed, meaning they return to a 75% efficiency after the heal.
Stage 5: A survivor dies: 75% efficiency.
Stage 6: A survivor gets found and is now looping: 50% efficiency.
Stage 7: The survivor needs to be rescued and healed. while another survivor is being looped. 0-50% efficiency.

The game has to be balanced around these stages and they affect the outcome greatly.
The death of 1 survivor early can mean a difference between a 75% efficiency and a 25% efficiency.
Once there are 3 survivors, certain teams already get into the loop of getting caught > rescue > healing > getting caught and no one is doing gens anymore.

So you have a bad team? You are doomed without the hatch.

ANALYSIS to problem 2:
Generator regression is a great mechanic for killers to stall some extra time against the horse of 4 living survivors trying to scape as fast as possible and is certainly something a killer needs in their battle against short Gen times.
But once the 1st and perhaps second survivor dies, it is this mechanic that completely kills the ability for survivors to make their escape through doing multiple Gens in the late game.
Normally it would be possible to sneak around a bit. Progress generators in small pieces with the killer noticing small increases in progression, but that is no longer possible.
Generator REGRESSION forces you to Install yourself right next to a Gen until you are caught.
The sparks or lack of it directly indicate that you've touched it, notifying the killer that you are here in the area, whereas no regression mechanic wouldn't have revealed you if you only touched the Gen for a bit. The killer wouldn't have noticed a change in progress, allowing you to be sneaky.

ANALYSIS to problem 3:
The disparity between 1 and 2 survivors surviving with multiple gens is HUGE... and it is HUGE in the favour of 1 survivor. Once 2 teammates die with multiple gens, there is no way you will finish the others: Both of you are aware... one of you needs to die.
This problem is part of Problem 2. where slowly working on generators without regression would have actually given a 2 man team a decent chance to make it out together.

Because both survivors know they can't, they will either work on a Gen of which they know they won't be able to finish or they will hide and wait for the other player to die. This is no healthy gameplay.

ANALYSIS to problem 4: The hatch standoff is a problem due to the killer being able to block it in case they find it first. The killer can also grab the survivor, preventing them from being able to jump in if they are standing right on it.
On the other hand there is a problem of the hatch being considered a too easy way to escape.
So let's find a middle ground!

----------------------------------------------------------PROBLEM SOLUTION-----------------------------------------------------------

SOLUTION to problem 1:
The solution to problem 1, being dependant on other survivors, can be solved by addressing the solutions in problem 2,3 and 4!

SOLUTION to problem 2:
In one of my discussions called something along the lines of"complete survivor perk overhaul", I reworked the perk called Technician in order to give it purpose. I gave it purpose by having it tackle exactly this problem:

Technician:
You are apt at handling machinery with the greatest care and precision.
Generators that you last worked on cannot be slowly regressed.
Generators that you repaired over a 95% will automatically be completed after a 10/15/20 second delay.
Details:
Technician only works if you were the last to touch a certain Gen. If multiple people work on it and you leave if before the others do, then the Gen can still regress.
The Killer can still kick that Gen but no sparks will be on that gen. It will not give the killer any points.
Pop Goes The Weasel will still regress the Gen, but no further regression will occur after.

Now players will be able to play their late-game stealth builds if they wish to do so and could even with without the hatch by letting only the technician work on the Gen's or staying together.

SOLUTION to problem 3:
The Technician rework solves this issue of 2 survivors having to wait each others' death out. If they do not run the perk, they have accepted these terms.

SOLUTION to problem 4:

-Every map spawns 4 chests, but 1 chest has a special appearance and Contains a "Rusty Key".
-The rusty key's effects only come into play when there is only 1 remaining survivor!!!;
-Whoever wields this key will be downed in 1 hit and can be moried after.
-The key is a special item: It doesn't take up your 1 and only item slot.
-The key cannot normally be dropped. It is automatically dropped upon: Being hooked/Upon Dying/Franklins Demise.
-The key can only be used to open the Hatch (when you are the last living survivor).
-The key is dropped upon leaving through the exit gates and is consumed upon entering the hatch.
-The rusty key can open the hatch even while in the downed state.

Now here is how the hatch will work:

-Once you are the only survivor, a hatch opens, making it's usual sound.
-A killer can close the hatch, removing the sound and forcing the survivor to search harder + find the Rusty Key.
-A killer cannot grab a survivor entering the hatch.
-A killer standing on the hatch will not prevent the survivor from entering.

So there is no longer a hatch stand-off; A survivor can just Run to the hatch and once they arrive there and/or manage to be downed close enough to it, they win.
But due to the Rusty Key mechanic, IF the killer manages to find the hatch first, they will have a great advantage over the fight. It will take the survivor significantly longer to find it, and in order to now be able to open it, they NEED a key that will give them the EXPOSED effect. This allows the killer to guard the hatch and manage to get the kill if they manage to hit the survivor a few meters away from the hatch.
A free mori for good measure and that settles the Hatch problem.

THE END~

(And for people interested in some game-play details as a result from these machanics:
In funny cases, a survivor will have takes the Rusty Key away from the chest, forcing you to look around hooks or memorizing where someone bled out/got moried.
These type of scenario's can be frustrating in a very thematically fitting way; "I can't find the key".

If the killer found the hatch first and you find the Rusty Key, then it is your mission to sneak up to the hatch (and possibly killer), as even though you can enter it without being stopped, you can be downed before reaching it.
Deliberately remaining in the dying state to dead hard your way into the hatch is a strategy you can use in open field hatches, which will be the harder ones to reach.)

AlwaysInAGoodShape · November 2018