Let's speak clearly of the "hatch issue": from definitions to remedies
Comments
-
I'm fine with the hatch existing. I think the problem with it is the hatch standoff that can occur. Killers don't want to hit the survivor because the survivor can then jump right in, and survivors will stand directly in front of the killer trying to get hit so they can jump in without fear of being grabbed. Killers being afraid to chase and survivors brazenly standing in the killer's face are the opposite of the behaviors we should see.
A reasonable option might be that, one second after the killer hits the survivor, the hatch is blocked off by the entity for five (or whatever number seems fair) seconds. A survivor who gets hit by the killer mid-jump still escapes, but a survivor can't bait a hit to get a free escape. Hatch grabs would still work as normal.
After one survivor escapes, escaping via hatch shouldn't grant bonus hatch points. Don't reward players for dragging the game out by sticking around after their teammates have all left. It's not fair to their teammates or the killer.
0 -
@powerbats said:
@Wolf74 said:
2.Why does the killer not have any free game mechanic that is made to avoid that 4 survivor escape?
I've already given logical and factual reasons for why the others and this one are illogical but this is a great one to show your twisted logic.
The killer does have a free game mechanic to prevent survivors from getting a 4 man escape and in actuality there's 2 free game mechanics the killer can use.
There's the tried and true method which is not letting them do 5 gens thereby making the hatch never spawn for all 4 survivors to use with a key.
While the other and often most direct one that is guaranteed to never let 4 escape is called.
SACRIFICING 1 PERSON.
Now you can't try and twist or argue over semantics, troll, defect, use logical fallacies or anything else you normally try. If you as the killer don't do one of those 2 things that're free and in your power to do then you can't complain if 4 get out either via the gate or the hatch.
Thing is survivors have a failsafe mechanic in case the game gets awry (hatch) but they still performed well, where's the failsafe for a killer in case 5 gens are done and all survivors are still alive?
Imo if all 5 gens are done the killer has the survivor with the most points releaved to him, he is exposed and can be mori'd. Still wouldn't help you pip but pipping is easy anyways, it's just the occasional 0k that feels like ######### when you know that survivors have a mechanic like the hatch to counteract frustration
1 -
@Cardgrey said:
@apropos said:
@Cardgrey said:
U people =p u all should just try having fun.
And u all must be all stars cause I’m happy if I get 3.
If u want to fix the issue why not if the killer wins survivors lose all bp. And if survivors win killer loses all bp. Seems to me u need a I win or u lose screen.lolWhat if... they are having fun
Good point I hope they are. And I respect mr Powerbats.
That said why not have the hatch spawn as is if a key is brought in. Or spawn as is if found in game. Were it doesn’t spawn otherwise until the 3rd is dead . Give survivors exposed. And the exposed goes away if the hatch is camped for say 20 seconds or longer.with both not knowing were the hatch is.
Just a idea@Cardgrey said:
@apropos said:
@Cardgrey said:
@apropos said:
@Cardgrey said:
U people =p u all should just try having fun.
And u all must be all stars cause I’m happy if I get 3.
If u want to fix the issue why not if the killer wins survivors lose all bp. And if survivors win killer loses all bp. Seems to me u need a I win or u lose screen.lolWhat if... they are having fun
Good point I hope they are. And I respect mr Powerbats.
That said why not have the hatch spawn as is if a key is brought in. Or spawn as is if found in game. Were it doesn’t spawn otherwise until the 3rd is dead . Give survivors exposed. And the exposed goes away if the hatch is camped for say 20 seconds or longer.with both not knowing were the hatch is.
Just a ideaHell, sounds good.
honestly this fixes a lot. Only issue I see in this is if the killer looking for the hatch instead of looking for the other player and decides to camp it... I don’t know if taking away grab is a good idea...
Input pleaseCould also make the hatch unseeable by the killer so they focus on the person... idk
1 -
@powerbats said:
@Wolf74 said:
2.Why does the killer not have any free game mechanic that is made to avoid that 4 survivor escape?
I've already given logical and factual reasons for why the others and this one are illogical but this is a great one to show your twisted logic.
The killer does have a free game mechanic to prevent survivors from getting a 4 man escape and in actuality there's 2 free game mechanics the killer can use.
There's the tried and true method which is not letting them do 5 gens thereby making the hatch never spawn for all 4 survivors to use with a key.
While the other and often most direct one that is guaranteed to never let 4 escape is called.
SACRIFICING 1 PERSON.
Now you can't try and twist or argue over semantics, troll, defect, use logical fallacies or anything else you normally try. If you as the killer don't do one of those 2 things that're free and in your power to do then you can't complain if 4 get out either via the gate or the hatch.
No matter how often you repeat that, it does not become true.
There is no safety net for killer to prevent a 4 escape, but there is a safety net for survivor to prevent a 4 kill
You can't claim that good tactics are the same than an ingame mechanic to support you.3 -
@Wolf74 said:
@powerbats said:
@Wolf74 said:
2.Why does the killer not have any free game mechanic that is made to avoid that 4 survivor escape?
I've already given logical and factual reasons for why the others and this one are illogical but this is a great one to show your twisted logic.
The killer does have a free game mechanic to prevent survivors from getting a 4 man escape and in actuality there's 2 free game mechanics the killer can use.
There's the tried and true method which is not letting them do 5 gens thereby making the hatch never spawn for all 4 survivors to use with a key.
While the other and often most direct one that is guaranteed to never let 4 escape is called.
SACRIFICING 1 PERSON.
Now you can't try and twist or argue over semantics, troll, defect, use logical fallacies or anything else you normally try. If you as the killer don't do one of those 2 things that're free and in your power to do then you can't complain if 4 get out either via the gate or the hatch.
No matter how often you repeat that, it does not become true.
There is no safety net for killer to prevent a 4 escape, but there is a safety net for survivor to prevent a 4 kill
You can't claim that good tactics are the same than an ingame mechanic to support you.No matter how you try and deflect, use Straw Mans, Red Herrings or other logical fallacies you're still not correct.
The safety net for teh killer is to use their skills and kill 1 person thu preventing a 4 man escape.
There is no way for all 4 to escape unless the killer fails the entire game to sacrifice even a single person.
If you as a killer fail to kill a single person either via a mori, Rancor mori, or 3rd stage hook, 2nd stage hook that ends in a sacrifice then you're to blame.
Don't go blaming the survivors for all doing their objective and not standing there to give you a free kill instead of escaping once all 5 gens are done.
You're logical fallacies are getting more and more ludicrous as you run out of excuses and now you're just arguing to argue knowing you're wrong.
If 2 gens get done and 1 person escapes via the hatch they got out fair and square by doing their objective. You failed in preventing those gens from being powered and have no one to blame but yourself.
Once again, YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO A FREE KILL OR A 4TH KILL, no matter how you reword it, YOU FAILED. If you want that 4th kill then do like the rest of us do when we want, GO EARN IT.
Someday it'll get through you that the only person you have to blame is you for not getting that 4th kill since all you had to do is keep the needed gens from being powered and sacrifice everyone 1st.
2 -
@powerbats said:
No matter how you try and deflect, use Straw Mans, Red Herrings or other logical fallacies you're still not correct.
The safety net for teh killer is to use their skills and kill 1 person thu preventing a 4 man escape.
There is no way for all 4 to escape unless the killer fails the entire game to sacrifice even a single person.
If you as a killer fail to kill a single person either via a mori, Rancor mori, or 3rd stage hook, 2nd stage hook that ends in a sacrifice then you're to blame.
Don't go blaming the survivors for all doing their objective and not standing there to give you a free kill instead of escaping once all 5 gens are done.
You're logical fallacies are getting more and more ludicrous as you run out of excuses and now you're just arguing to argue knowing you're wrong.
If 2 gens get done and 1 person escapes via the hatch they got out fair and square by doing their objective. You failed in preventing those gens from being powered and have no one to blame but yourself.
Once again, YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO A FREE KILL OR A 4TH KILL, no matter how you reword it, YOU FAILED. If you want that 4th kill then do like the rest of us do when we want, GO EARN IT.
Someday it'll get through you that the only person you have to blame is you for not getting that 4th kill since all you had to do is keep the needed gens from being powered and sacrifice everyone 1st.
It really amazed me... you really do not notice that you do all the things you blame me to do?
- Everybody can use tactic. Survivor and killer. But survivor have an ADDITONAL game mechanic that help them to prevent a 4K.
- Why is me asking for a 1K (in case 3 already escaped) or the 4th kill "entitlement" , but your defending of the safety net mechanic is ok?
Your doublestandards are really annoying.
1 -
@Wolf74 said:
It really amazed me... you really do not notice that you do all the things you blame me to do?
- Everybody can use tactic. Survivor and killer. But survivor have an ADDITONAL game mechanic that help them to prevent a 4K.
- Why is me asking for a 1K (in case 3 already escaped) or the 4th kill "entitlement" , but your defending of the safety net mechanic is ok?
Your doublestandards are really annoying.
What is amazing is how you keep twisting my words with your Straw Mans and then changing what you want.
You're not entitled to a 4k, if you want it earn it by either killing all 4 or preventing that extra gen from being done. It's amazing so many of the rest of us have no issues with it but you entitled few just can't get over the fact 1 escaped.
Oh so now it's you asking for a 1k this time around and doing exactly what I said before you'd do which was change the move the goalposts. If you want that 1k earn it, if you let all 4 escape by powering all 5 gens that's your own fault.
You're asking for a free 4th kill that you didn't earn which is entitlement again, and you even came out and said it this time so you can't say you didn't anymore.
I'm defending the hatch because it's a lore based mechanic and you as the killer can prevent it from ever happening. But because you're either bad, played poorly, gout outplayed etc you want to be given a free kill you haven't earned.
If the survivors have done enough to have the hatch spawn, they earned THE CHANCE at getting out through the the hatch. If the survivors powered all 5 gens and opened the exit gates and got out they earned their escape.
If you you didn't manage to stop that and didn't kill anyone then you didn't deserve to kill anyone, you're not entitled to a free kill. You keep asking for a free kill and then at the same time say the survivors aren't entitled to a free escape.
You want a kill handed to for doing nothing other than letting them power all 5 gens and open both exit gates, you want to be rewarded for letting that happen.
The person that gets the hatch did so because 2 generators were done and they managed to avoid you and escape which is their objective.
You're objective is to sacrifice survivors and PREVENT THEM FROM DOING GENS, if they get to 5 gens done you've failed if they get out. If 2 gens get done and 3 die those 3 failed but the one that makes it out didn't.
IF the hatch spawns but the last person doesn't make it out then the killer earned that kill by making sure no one got out. They didn't come here whining about someone escaping and asking for a free entitlement kill because they didn't do good enough.
The only double standards exposed here are once again yours, you're now clearly asking for a free kill you don't deserve and trying to use the Red Herring.
You want that kill EARN IT, don't complain about it but go out and earn it like everyone else does without complaint.
2 -
@powerbats said:
@Wolf74 said:
It really amazed me... you really do not notice that you do all the things you blame me to do?
- Everybody can use tactic. Survivor and killer. But survivor have an ADDITONAL game mechanic that help them to prevent a 4K.
- Why is me asking for a 1K (in case 3 already escaped) or the 4th kill "entitlement" , but your defending of the safety net mechanic is ok?
Your doublestandards are really annoying.
What is amazing is how you keep twisting my words with your Straw Mans and then changing what you want.
You're not entitled to a 4k, if you want it earn it by either killing all 4 or preventing that extra gen from being done. It's amazing so many of the rest of us have no issues with it but you entitled few just can't get over the fact 1 escaped.
Oh so now it's you asking for a 1k this time around and doing exactly what I said before you'd do which was change the move the goalposts. If you want that 1k earn it, if you let all 4 escape by powering all 5 gens that's your own fault.
You're asking for a free 4th kill that you didn't earn which is entitlement again, and you even came out and said it this time so you can't say you didn't anymore.
I'm defending the hatch because it's a lore based mechanic and you as the killer can prevent it from ever happening. But because you're either bad, played poorly, gout outplayed etc you want to be given a free kill you haven't earned.
If the survivors have done enough to have the hatch spawn, they earned THE CHANCE at getting out through the the hatch. If the survivors powered all 5 gens and opened the exit gates and got out they earned their escape.
If you you didn't manage to stop that and didn't kill anyone then you didn't deserve to kill anyone, you're not entitled to a free kill. You keep asking for a free kill and then at the same time say the survivors aren't entitled to a free escape.
You want a kill handed to for doing nothing other than letting them power all 5 gens and open both exit gates, you want to be rewarded for letting that happen.
The person that gets the hatch did so because 2 generators were done and they managed to avoid you and escape which is their objective.
You're objective is to sacrifice survivors and PREVENT THEM FROM DOING GENS, if they get to 5 gens done you've failed if they get out. If 2 gens get done and 3 die those 3 failed but the one that makes it out didn't.
IF the hatch spawns but the last person doesn't make it out then the killer earned that kill by making sure no one got out. They didn't come here whining about someone escaping and asking for a free entitlement kill because they didn't do good enough.
The only double standards exposed here are once again yours, you're now clearly asking for a free kill you don't deserve and trying to use the Red Herring.
You want that kill EARN IT, don't complain about it but go out and earn it like everyone else does without complaint.
You just repeat yourself over and over.
Nothing you say is new and maybe half of it is basically made up and the rest is out of context or simply oneside blind.
I don't even want to waste my time going in detail, but this is so terribly biased and stubborn it's beyond any chance of a serious debate.
You are promoting a narrative of failure that fits your agenda.
Gens done = killer failed.
This is wrong at it's core idea.
There are tons of "endgame perks" and if the killer kills all 4 after 5 gens are done, he still failed by your standard.
The main objective is the escape/kill.
Next point is your desire to call people out for things you do. I NEVER asked for a "free kill" anywhere. Go out and try to quote me on this.
It is really annoying and borderline insulting that you keep up lying about people that do not agree with your points.4 -
@Wolf74 said:
You just repeat yourself over and over.
Nothing you say is new and maybe half of it is basically made up and the rest is out of context or simply oneside blind.
I don't even want to waste my time going in detail, but this is so terribly biased and stubborn it's beyond any chance of a serious debate.
You are promoting a narrative of failure that fits your agenda.
Gens done = killer failed.
This is wrong at it's core idea.
There are tons of "endgame perks" and if the killer kills all 4 after 5 gens are done, he still failed by your standard.
The main objective is the escape/kill.
Next point is your desire to call people out for things you do. I NEVER asked for a "free kill" anywhere. Go out and try to quote me on this.
It is really annoying and borderline insulting that you keep up lying about people that do not agree with your points.Ah yes your usual cherry picking to fit your Straw mans, then more of your reflections and distortions.
Facts which you don't seem to like because they don't fit your narrative.
If the gens as in all 5 gens get powered and all 4 survivors escape you failed no ifs ands or but's about it.
The escape part where you said you were asking for 1 kill to prevent all 4 from escaping. You know where you basically said you wanted a free kill handed to you.
But you did, you said and I quote for emphasis in bold.
@Wolf74 said:
- Why is me asking for a 1K (in case 3 already escaped) or the 4th kill "entitlement" , but your defending of the safety net mechanic is ok?
- No what's really annoying is all the non stop lying and distortions you put out there and then claim you never said such a thing. Your own words tell the truth here and you can't accept the fact you got caught talking out of both sides of your keyboard.
@Wolf74 said:
There is no safety net for killer to prevent a 4 escape, but there is a safety net for survivor to prevent a 4 kill
You can't claim that good tactics are the same than an ingame mechanic to support you.You're free mechanic is to sacrifice one person here to prevent a 4 person escape. You were told this and then changed your argument and story again.
You keep going on and on about how it's free for survivors eyt have been given actual facts and logic contradicting you. Then you tried the old well the killer doesn't have such a thing to prevent a 4 man escape, also disproven.
Then you moved onto saying all you were asking for is 1 kill when 3 escape which all but screams you want 1 free kill which is entitlement.
You can keep on with the Ad Hominem attacks, the deflections, the distortions, the Straw Mans, the Red Herrings and whatever other logical fallacies. But it won't change the facts in any way shape or form to help you or back up your claims.
3 -
Wow... you are hiding a lot behind your favorite phrases… "logical fallacy" ..."straw man"...
Maybe you should just change your nickname to Red Herring?
You are very fast to claim something "disproven" if you do not agree.
Guess what? Your not Judge Dredd, you are not the law.
Just because you said so, doesn't make anything true by default.3 -
Dude, everything hes saying is fair, and if you even had an arguement, you dont now because you've basically reduced to "I'm not listening to what you say blah blah blah".Wolf74 said:Wow... you are hiding a lot behind your favorite phrases… "logical fallacy" ..."straw man"...
Maybe you should just change your nickname to Red Herring?
You are very fast to claim something "disproven" if you do not agree.
Guess what? Your not Judge Dredd, you are not the law.
Just because you said so, doesn't make anything true by default.
He responded to your points, even quoted you asking to be quoted on something, and you just....bash him and compare him to a comic book character? Cmon man.2 -
@Carpemortum said:
Wolf74 said:Wow... you are hiding a lot behind your favorite phrases… "logical fallacy" ..."straw man"...
Maybe you should just change your nickname to Red Herring?
You are very fast to claim something "disproven" if you do not agree.
Guess what? Your not Judge Dredd, you are not the law.
Just because you said so, doesn't make anything true by default.
Dude, everything hes saying is fair, and if you even had an arguement, you dont now because you've basically reduced to "I'm not listening to what you say blah blah blah".
He responded to your points, even quoted you asking to be quoted on something, and you just....bash him and compare him to a comic book character? Cmon man.
Yeah as I said before he's following the same routine and when confronted with the facts and his own words he tries to turn it around and play the victim card.
It's like he's running out of mud to sling and things to try and deflect and lie with to the point he's not even trying anymore. It's throw something out there and hope it distracts from what he's said.
It's obvious that this thread has outlived it's usefulness and that he won't admit he's been given facts and his own words contradicting himself.
Perhap either @MandyTalk or @Peanits will close this thread now.
1 -
I am not playing the "victim card", I just point out that everything is already said and your points had been debunked, but you keep repeating it.
The hatch is "free". The one using it, has not personally to do anything to get it.
The survivor should do the gens anyway, it's not like they have to do anything extra to get the hatch.
Any survivor team worth a brain cell should be able to do at least 2 gens. If they are unable to do that, the killer deserve that 4K.
And if 3 are dead and 2 gens are done (which should be a given), the last one gets an extra chance to avoid the 4k.
Or even worse, other survivor already escaped through the open gate and the last survivor gets an additional escaperoute to avoid perks or abilities like RBTs, Noed or just a simple chase towards the open gate.
He does not have to use any special tactic or strategy to do so.
On the other hand, killer do not have anything that prevent a 4 escape.
And just using special tactics/strategies or play in a certain way to avoid the hatch to spawn is in no way the same than the hatch mechanic.
The answer that killer already have some mechanic like the hatch is just a big blatant LIE.
The whole narrative about "gens got done = the killer failed" is a "logical fallancy", because the killer can still succeed and kill the survivor after the gens are done (endgame builds).I already said all that and it stays true, no matter how often you disagree.
2 -
@Wolf74 said:
I am not playing the "victim card", I just point out that everything is already said and your points had been debunked, but you keep repeating it.The hatch is "free". The one using it, has not personally to do anything to get it.
The survivor should do the gens anyway, it's not like they have to do anything extra to get the hatch.
Any survivor team worth a brain cell should be able to do at least 2 gens. If they are unable to do that, the killer deserve that 4K.
And if 3 are dead and 2 gens are done (which should be a given), the last one gets an extra chance to avoid the 4k.
Or even worse, other survivor already escaped through the open gate and the last survivor gets an additional escaperoute to avoid perks or abilities like RBTs, Noed or just a simple chase towards the open gate.
He does not have to use any special tactic or strategy to do so.
On the other hand, killer do not have anything that prevent a 4 escape.
And just using special tactics/strategies or play in a certain way to avoid the hatch to spawn is in no way the same than the hatch mechanic.
The answer that killer already have some mechanic like the hatch is just a big blatant LIE.
The whole narrative about "gens got done = the killer failed" is a "logical fallancy", because the killer can still succeed and kill the survivor after the gens are done (endgame builds).I already said all that and it stays true, no matter how often you disagree.
My points haven't been debunked and you know it, your false claims ad made up facts don't make it so.
- This has already been disproven countless times and the fact you still cling to this shows how desperate you are. In order for the hatch to even appear 2 gens at a minimum must be done which means it isn't free.
Your false claim yet again that the one getting the hatch hasn't done anything personally to get is is incorrect yet again. The person getting said hatch could've done anywhere between 1 and 5 gens and you have n way of knowing their contribution till post game.
Well of course they're going to try and do the gens if they can but when they're the last one alive the chance they'll somehow power 3 more gens without teh killer ever catching them are slim and none.
The killer doesn't deserve anything and there you go showing your sense of entitlement again after claiming you didn't yet your own words continue to prove it.
Oh here we go again with the entitlement and victim syndrome, of course the survivor is going to try and get out and not give you a FREE 4TH KILL.
Oh you'd think that the killer is so poor they can't use NOED or chase someone out or gasp the survivor could get out the other gate. The killer could use a mori of some kind thus preventing that 4 man escape. Again you're not entitled to any kills so stop blaming the hatch for your bad gameplay.
Wait so the killer can only stand there and let the survivors escape, they can't use any of their unique abilities to i don't know smack a survivor and hook them?
Yes here it is folks the victim card being played oh poor killer has no way to prevent a 4 man escape lie again. The killer can sacrifice 1 person thus preventing a 4 man escape. They can also make sure 5 gens don't get powered or 4 gens powered since if only 3 gens are powered the HATCH CAN'T spawn.
Ah yes here we have more absolutely false claims, the killer can stop the gens from being done thus keeping the hatch from spawning. If the hatch spawns and someone gets out you failed plain and simple end of discussion.
The kiler is the killer and I never stated they have a special mechanic you know it and now you just proved you're an absolute liar and troll. They have special abilities unique to each killer and any add ons they bring o enhance those special abilities
Here's exactly what I said he who speaks with forked tongue.
.> @powerbats said:
You're free mechanic is to sacrifice one person here to prevent a 4 person escape. You were told this and then changed your argument and story again.
Wow Imagine that I never said killers have a special mechanic like the hatch, looks like you've been caught lying flat out again.
I said that if the gens get done thus powering the hatch and 1 person escapes via the hatch the killer has failed. I also said in response to your complaint that if all 5 gens get done and the gates get opened and 4 people escape you failed.
Your so called saying it's true is yet again been proven false, as i said before you can try and twist what's said, deflect, insult, lie, etc it won't change the fact you've been proven wrong. You can keep repeating nonsense until your fingers become numb but it won't make it true.
1 -
There is no such thing like a "free kill" as there is no mechanic that kills the survivor without the killer first finding, chasing and hooking them.
(Unless you count suiciding survivors who just gave up and ran to the killer)
There simply is NO mechanic like that for killers.
--"Killing them all before they reach 2/6 of their objectives" is neither a plannable strategy nor in any way a mechanic. Heck if this was abviable "strategy" survivors would storm BHVR with pitchforks and torches.
---"not killing the 3rd"... really? Your "mechanic"... is surprisingly enough not a mechanic agains... who wouldve guessed.
The hatch is a free escape because it becomes a shortcut that instantly makes it possible to skip up to 4 objectives needed to reach the survivors' goal. The objectives are 1-3 gens plus the exit gate, the goal is escaping alive.
Even hatch standoffs are the survivors fault because they think themselves entitled to taking the shortcut. Any standoff scenario happens that way, no matter who finds it first. Im not gonna further comment the standoff problem.
Please enlighten me, as i simpy cannot seem to find it myself which the fabled "free kill"-mechanic is.
Theres no button to press or hatch to jump in for the killer to instantly sacrifice the last survivor regardless of progress once three other sirvivors are dead.4 -
@Raptorrotas Feel free to take over. It is pointless to go on against him. He simple restarts everything by saying "I am right and you are wrong".
His logic is like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_g20yHuXrw3 -
@Raptorrotas It's already been proven that the hatch isn't free, you yourself said that they have to do 2/6 of the objective which means it isn't free.The very definition of ree is not having to do anything for something.
Also it takes 2 to tango so no hatch standoffs aren't just the survivors fault, if the survivor finds it 1st using killer main logic they should get it because if killers find it 1t they should get the kill.
It's amazing that when a killer manags to 4k before 2 gens get powered that the killer that used a viable strategy to do so isn't considered viable.
I do love the not killing the 3rd claim since I can quote all the killer mains here who've said slug the 3rd to ensure you can get the 4th.
Again the hatch isn't a free escape no matter how many times you 2 or others claim it is, 2 gens must be done in order or it to spawn. Thyen the survivor must actually make it into the hatch and escape without being grabbed.
For the hatch tob e a free escape the survivor would need to be able to walk in plain sight and jump into the hatch with the killer enver being able to hit them or grab them or mori them etc.
Again top with the free mechanic victim nonsense, it just shows how entitled you killer mains are despite claiming the contrary. You have a free mechanic which is sacrifice all 4 survivors to prevent a hatch escape and if you fail to use that it's your own fault.
Also @Wolf74 you can continue to try and troll all you want but you 've been told by others as well giving you the same facts.
It won't change the fact that you twisted what I Said and now you've called upon another poster to take over.
1 -
@Wolf74 I do apologize however for getting so carried away in our discussion due to lack of sleep and being sick. I do respect your devotion for killer related issues however and do agree with you on some things while being neutral with you on others.
I do agree the hatch needs to change to make it more fair for both sides but therein lies the issue really since both sides will want what's more fair for them. I'm maining killer still right now and I see the hatch from both sides.
Perhaps taking a break and then making a new thread where we can TRY and discuss possible changes that would actually work will help.
1 -
Still no sign of the fabled free kill mechanic.
Time for another round on the merrygoround.
1. If a survivor finds the hatch, he can jump in. No one here ever had anything against that. The problem you happily ignore is that NOTHING happens if a killler happens to get there first.
2. Fine, let's consider the hatch "not a free escape" , but rather a shortcut... still skipping possibly more than 50% of the objectives in the worst case.
It's still possible to get a shortcut and escaping without ever touching a generator yourself. Afterall you are 4 survivors.
3. Yet again claiming strategies and gameflow to be mechanics.
4. Hatch standoffs: there actually is a radius around the hatch in which the survivor simply becomes untouchable.
5. So completing 4/4 of the killers objective is now a mechanic to negate the shortcut condition survivors get at 2/6, which is easily possible less than 2min into the game.
EDIT: didnt see your last post and agree that this thread should be closed.3 -
@powerbats stop calling things "proven wrong" or "facts", just because it's your opinion and we can get along … better.
0 -
@Wolf74 said:
@powerbats stop calling things "proven wrong" or "facts", just because it's your opinion and we can get along … better.we'll have to agree to disagree on certain things then.
But things that I consider facts and the reasons listed.
Free escape, this isn't true because free means getting something for nothing and in your control. - The survivors have to power at least 2 gens in order to get the hatch to spawn. The other 3 survivors must die for the last person to get a chance at the hatch. The last person has to make an escape without getting hit/grabbed/downed etc.
To be free after that point the survivor would also have to be able to go to the hatch and not be able to be hit/downed/mori'd/grabbed by the killer in any way shape or form.
For all those reasons the hatch at that point isn't free and that is a fact because the reasons listed above.
Now if someone does nothing all match and just hides and camps the hatch and jumps in yes that's a free hatch escape. You could argue that technically they did do something which is evade you the entire match to get to that point.
As for the survivor doing nothing all game, I think they shouldn't get the hatch for free in that case since you're basically sandbagging your teammates at that point. It should be based upon your contribution to the games overall progress to that point.
If you've been unhooking, doing gens cleansed 4 totems, kept the killer busy all game etc then yes you should be eligible to get to the hatch. But if you've done nothing all game and have just camped the hatch at the end it shouldn't even open for you.
If you're in a duo que swf and one of you is on the hook and you dc your duo partner shouldn't get the hatch since that's abuse of a game mechanic. You should have to do what everyone else does and that's suicide on the hook.
I still agree with you that if someone escapes through the exit gate the hatch won't open unless the person has a key to open it. The issue with RBT's is that if the killers chasing you you're not getting to a box at that point. But there's perhaps ways to fix that issue that work for both sides.
As far as 4 getting out through hatch that's an achievement that's pretty difficult to get since most killers see a key and tunnel the heck out of that person. I think the killer should get a hatch notification of some kind if a hatch is opened with a key.
That way they can head off the potential 4 man escape through hatch if they're chasing someone since once it's opened it's 30 seconds until it closes. To make it even fairer each person that jumps in after the 1st shaves off 5-7 seconds off the timer.
So if someone's tea bagging or looping the killer thinking they're going to jump in the hatch and it closes due to the timer it'll prevent the bming moves.
You could even tweak it although this might not be feasible so that if they mistime the hatch jump as it closes it cuts them in 2 like a mori and you get full credit for it.
I think one last thing that might end hatch standoffs but will get lots of screams from survivors is the hatch should close within 15 minutes of being opened. This would prevent a hatch standoff from being too prolonged but'd make killers jsut stand there knowing they'll get it closed for free in end.
To prevent killers from standing there endlessly they could be given a movement speed debuff the longer they stand there it gets harsher. This would make them want to check that gen and the debuff would be removed once in a chase.
0 -
The hatch is FREE, because you have nothing to do beside the stuff you are supposed to do ANYWAY.
You do not have to invest anything "extra" to make it happen.
If you can't get the hatch to spawn, you sucked and deserved to die.
You just need to play halfway decent to get the hatch to spawn.
That is what I consider FREE.
So please stop arguing about it. You just play and get it. Done. No need to change your tactic or strategy. It will just happen (or not in case you suck).
As long as you claim the hatch is not "free", we have no common ground to start from.0 -
The only time the hatch will not spawn is when the survivors play stupidly overly altruistic, you will get at least 2 gens unless you clump up on 1 spot so the killer can hit all of you before even 1 goes down.
0 -
@Wolf74 said:
The hatch is FREE, because you have nothing to do beside the stuff you are supposed to do ANYWAY.
You do not have to invest anything "extra" to make it happen.
If you can't get the hatch to spawn, you sucked and deserved to die.
You just need to play halfway decent to get the hatch to spawn.
That is what I consider FREE.
So please stop arguing about it. You just play and get it. Done. No need to change your tactic or strategy. It will just happen (or not in case you suck).
As long as you claim the hatch is not "free", we have no common ground to start from.Her we go again, you have to actually do something and as I explained repeatedly it's not free and THAT'S A FACT and you know it to be so.
The very definition of free is to get something for nothing, to have something be in your control. To receive something of value with no expense or effort.
To get the hatch to even spawn the survivors MUST DO 2 GENS which is a known fact and a known game mechanic. So thus the hatch isn't free unless you're allowing the survivors to power 2 gens without trying to stop them.
It's not free unless after you kill 3 of them you let the 4th person walk to the hatch and jump in without trying to stop them in any way shape for or fashion. Thusly unless you're letting all the above happen the hatch isn't free.
You're right we have no common ground because you refuse to accept that something sin't free when something must be done in order for it to happen.To make something happen by doing something is the very definition of not being free.
It doesn't matter that you'd be working on gens anyways, you still have to work in order to receive something which means it isn't free.
Now for the suck part if you as a killer let all 5 gens get powered and the gates are powered and 4 escape you suck using your own logic. If you manage to avoid the killer and get the hatch then you didn't suck using your own logic.
Free definitions::
adjective:
1.not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
Meaning you could walk to the hatch and jump in in full view of the killer and never be touched and thus escape.
adverb:
2.without cost or payment.
Meaning you'd not have to power 2 gens to get the hatch to spawn it'd be there at 5 gens left to be powered.
Those are just some of the definitions of free and they all contradict what you say, no matter what it won't ever be free if something must be done in order for it to spawn. It doesn't matter that you'll be working on generators as part of your objective anyways, You're still required to work for it in order for it to spawn, which means it's not free.
1 -
@Raptorrotas said:
Still no sign of the fabled free kill mechanic.
Time for another round on the merrygoround.If a survivor finds the hatch, he can jump in. No one here ever had anything against that. The problem you happily ignore is that NOTHING happens if a killler happens to get there first.
Fine, let's consider the hatch "not a free escape" , but rather a shortcut... still skipping possibly more than 50% of the objectives in the worst case.
It's still possible to get a shortcut and escaping without ever touching a generator yourself. Afterall you are 4 survivors.Yet again claiming strategies and gameflow to be mechanics.
Hatch standoffs: there actually is a radius around the hatch in which the survivor simply becomes untouchable.
So completing 4/4 of the killers objective is now a mechanic to negate the shortcut condition survivors get at 2/6, which is easily possible less than 2min into the game.
EDIT: didnt see your last post and agree that this thread should be closed.
- That's incorrect, EW III Myers, Rancor etc if it's the obsession, the killer can do a hatch standoff if they so desire, the survivor can decide to try and jump in and risk getting grabbed.
There's also NOED for hits away from the hatch, Iridescent Heads Huntress, Hag traps with collison, Doctor with Madness III etc.
- It's not a shortcut if there's 1 survivor left the killer has gotten 3 kills and has basically already won at that point. The hatch is part of the lore since the entity feeds off the survivors hopes of escape, if there's no hope of escape the entity can't feed.
Also if there's no chance of escape then you'll end up having the problem of an immersed survivor hiding forever and as you whiny killer mains call it holding the game hostage. If you want to go back to 30 minute games where you have to actually find the last survivor all because you don't like the hatch mechanic then buckle up.
IF they ever removed the hatch then you'd have to give up all your aura reading perks, detection perks items and add ons or have them nullified once 1 survivor is left Then you can have your hatch free game but once again you have to go earnt hat 4th kill, no freebies and you can spend 30 minutes looking for them.
Yeah because strategies and gameflow don't use game mechanics as what they operate on, are you serious with that? How did people come up with strategies and gameflow if it wasn't by basing them off of game mechanics?
See #1 above for the reasons that's not always correct and if the hatch is on a hill or in a wide open area that survivor isn't getting close enough to be untouchable.
So survivors are supposed to just let you have a free kill because you feel entitled to it why again? Lets see the killer is faster, can have insta downs etc. You can try and play the victim card but it just makes your argument look weak.
Also where'd you come up with that match 2/6 since it's power 2 gens or 1 more than the amount of survivors alive. If the survivors have 4 alive they must power all 5 generators then so 5/5, 3 left 4/5, 2 left 3/5.
Lastly so what they can gasp power 2 gens in under 2 minutes but the killer can down all 4 in under 1 minute. Just because it can happen doesn't always mean it does all the time.
1 -
No the way to fix it is fix the gensBigBadPiggy said:Hatch standoffs are my problem. I think a way to fix it is to have a timer to when the hatch spawns and opens. It would encourage the survivor to try and do gens or anything else. It could decrease the chances of hatch standoffs I think.
0 -
@not_Queen @Patricia Could you introduce in the 2.6.0 patch any of the ideas written in the OP to adjust the boring hatch standoff?
0 -
Seeing the survivors aura is not a chance, it’s an offer up.
you can’t keep slowing down survivors, reducing loops, removing pallets, and then want hatch removed and replaced by a timer where the killer can see the survivor, at the point where most pallets are gone and there are no decent loops because you’ve cried and had those removed too.
2 -
They should just remove it. Most killers slug to prevent you from getting it anyways.
Sincerly-survivor0 -
Hatch escape should give 0 points as band aid fix to encourage more team play.
I hate to see people that do fk all but wait for 2 gens to get finished and then hide until everyone is dead and escape with 5k+7k points.0 -
I know it's shocking that a killer is expected to actually sacrifice survivors before all 4 can escape.
1
