I'd like to have an honest discussion with someone who thinks Pig is not a weak Killer
Topic title. Here are my thoughts:
-Pig's stealth is very slow at base and not viable to use for even moderate periods of time (especially past the early game). Time is not on your side to be moving slower than a non-teleporting Nurse.
-Pig's ambush is painfully situational and heavily telegraphed. It is only usable on some loops, and even then, Pig has to make a complete guess (since she cannot see properly unless an add-on/perk gives them aura reading) and hope the opponent makes a mistake. Outside of that, its use is extremely minimal unless you are doing something very specific like trying to preserve stacks of Save the Best for Last.
-Reverse Bear Traps are wildly swingy with whether they provide a meaningful amount of stall. Sometimes they can knock someone out for a good while; sometimes it barely better than mending. When it works, it works, but when it doesn't, you lose a ton of pressure. Not a great thing considering that you already need to win chases with a subpar antiloop to make use of a highly variable slowdown.
-Her add-ons suuuuuck. The only thing the add-on re-work did to make her kit better was make Amanda's Letter easily the best add-on at her disposal. She still has large number of trash add-ons, and one of the weakest Killer add-ons in the game (Amanda's Secret) went untouched.
She has a decent variety in her kit, but almost all of it is heavily lacking.
If you agree with this stuff, I guess you can toss your two cents into this thread. But I'd like to hear from anyone who thinks I'm wrong. Maybe help me see things from a different POV.
Comments
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Why
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according to the data released by the Devs, Pig is in the top 5 for consistent kills every match.
and while I would never claim that she is top tier. Pig is above Trapper, Legion, Clown, Ghost Face, And maybe Freddie
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who plays with her, likes the style of play that she promotes in the game (RNG in boxes similar to movie lore, because just as you can remove the RBT in the 1st box with luck, you can be unlucky to die trying to take it out in the last one).
At most I would add small buffs to her crouched speed, make the RBTs work at the end of the game (RBT still remain disabled, but survivors just can't get out the gate or it will kill them even if it's disabled, but they can still escape through the hatch) and improve her addons.
I don't think there's any way to improve the ambush attack more, maybe at most put the roar when you are already start the action, but something else would be turning it into a mini Oni or Blight power, removing any counterplay for the survivor, and yes, I'm satisfied with my average 2 kills in every game I go with her.
Returning to the addons topic, I had already made a suggestion here on the forum to improve Amanda's secret, since it is a very rare addon and should work to keep the pressure on the game, especially after the nerf in the Tampered Timer + Crate of Gears combo, i will paste here:
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Still the only killer in the game who can 4k while AFK. More realistically 1k while AFK, but the chance is still there.
Other than that she is pretty meh but her head traps can buy a lot of time if you can actually down people. Not a killer I ever play without stacking up chase perks on her first. Pure M1 chases are just too painful.
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Her head traps just shouldn't be rng. Just make them take 2/3keys (search 2/3 boxes) and it comes off.
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I mean, I'm just throwing in my two cents cause I play pig a lot. Whether you agree or not is your opinion and I'm not trying to start some argument about whether pig is good or not.
Personally I love Pig. I play her the most cause I usually have better games when I play her. For her stealth I honestly don't use it except in the very beginning when nobody knows where you are and during the match if I know where a survivor is and they're outside my radius (like i saw 2 ppl on a gen, chased one away and know the other is back on that gen). Which is also where I use her ambush, good way to catch ppl off guard if I start the ambush like behind a wall or tree where they can't see me. I don't get the hit every time, but I do majority of the time .. plus it's fun haha. I ambush sometimes during loops, but I'm also still pretty new to killer so I kinda suck a$s with loops. But sometimes it works lol.
For her traps I mainly use them just to buy time, the add ons I usually use is the Face Mask and Razored Wires (sooometimes I'll use tampered timer to add more pressure tho). I usually will always use the Face Mask tho just for blindness. And yes, a lot of the times survivors will get them off super quick, but I also don't rely on them. I play her as an M1 killer and that might be why I do have so much fun with her.
Does she have the best of everything? Hell no. Does she have map pressure? Not really... big maps make me cry sometimes cause there's no real good way for her to get across maps fast at all lol. But she's fun to me, she's relatively simple and I can chill when I play her. Granted there are killers I like more than her, but I guess it's just how you play Pig and what you're looking for out of the game. I do wish she would get a buff, I feel like Pig doesn't get much love from the devs. But ... oh well. I still have fun
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Consider the rage dcs she gets.
Also we have sometimes been demolished by a pig.
Don´t only think high MMR. Normal players struggle a lot against her.
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an big map also means more spread out jigsaw boxes, just like in the Raccoon city map, which is bad for survivors. I really like playing with her on big maps, it's not a pressure from map presence, but from her power.
I don't agree, this suggestion has already been made several times on the forum, in addition to distorting the lore of the movies, it's a big nerf, because it removes the real possibility of survivors dying with RBT.
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Actually in the saw movies they use keys, some traps are actually locked behind multiple keys so it doesnt break the lore
And no one dies from them now after her addon nerf unless someone has forced it or wasted a bunch of time while its active. I'd know as the last box is usually mine lol.
This iant the only fix she needs but it's a start, its similar to trappers buff. This is a consistent buff to pig and a good one.
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Some people wrongly believe that with certain killers, like Pig, if you just play good enough you can win any team. It takes just a little bit of experience and awareness to realize that you can't.
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ngl didn't even think about the jigsaw boxes spawning farther on big maps. LOL, but big maps at least for me are still a bit painful with Pig. big map with tampered timer might be fun tho :o
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it will certainly drastically decrease people's chance of removing the RBT on the last box, although it increases the chances of not removing it on the 1st try as well (but inscrease to remove on second ou third).
so potentially speaking it's a nerf because it reduces the possibility that survivors will actually waste enough time to die with them activated like in lore. Anyway, At least if devs want to implement a change like this in the RBT that was just for survivors to waste time (and not have the potential chance to kill them), it could be through an addon, and not in her base kit. It's my opinion.
@topic:
forgot to mention that it's already 2022 and we don't have a chase music for her.
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If you're playing pig to expect kills through traps then you're playing pig for the wrong reason. What I suggested isnt a nerf, it completely removes the ability to get the trap off first try. Sure they get it off third try but I'd take that consistency over them removing it instantly.
Once again it's got nothing to do with the lore and doesnt break it. Every trap they are told the keys location (apart from where they're set to die no matter what) and it's a matter of choice not RNG.
The rng factor hurts her more than you realise, the more consistent the survivors waste time the more consistent pig is and therefore stronger.
Devs dont want you to actively get kills through secondary powers, even the new killer they explain that and pig is no different. It's also why pinhead got nerfed so much, we are talking about balance and that means consistently able to do so well... not the only buff she needs but a good one.
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As someone who plays The Pig more than any of the other killers, I feel she is usually vastly underrated when it comes to "tier" lists. Is she Nurse or Blight, or even an A-tier killer? No -- but she's nowhere as useless as a lot of people claim her to be, even at higher levels of play.
Her kills rates are high, not coincidentally pairing with a lower pick rate, implying that the Pigs out there who are playing her regularly have a good feel for how to use her kit to the best advantage and do well with her more often than not.
-- Her stealth is the worst of the stealth killers, but it's not designed to be used to cross the map, or cover lengthier distances. It's more for getting close when you already have an idea where someone is at and landing that first hit, or getting the occasional gen grab on someone not paying close enough attention. If a Pig player tries to stealth too much by crouching (unless they're playing an Amanda's Letter build), they're playing her wrong.
-- You're correct that the Ambush can be situational -- there simply are loops that are too big for it to be used in, but I still find it very effective at many loops, so long as the survivors aren't pre-dropping every pallet (which to be fair, is an issue for a lot of M1 killers). Getting inside of the pallet is key to landing the hit. You have to be able to read your survivors as well -- if you're facing survivors who bolt at the first sign of your crouching in a pallet loop, then you have to fake the attack. Survivors in those cases, expecting your dash and holding W to get away, will often put themselves into a more open area of the map where they aren't safe, and the threat of your Ambush will be enough to land the hit, plus you'll have a better chance with that survivor to actually Ambush attack them later in the match. The Pig does move quickly in those attacks, and I've landed downs even with survivors Dead Harding to get away.
-- The RNG with RBT's can be frustrating, but ANY stall you get from them is game slowdown that any killer would benefit from. Time searching even one box is time not sitting on a gen. I run Hex: Plaything on Pig, and I can't count the number of times I've come across an Oblivious survivor on a box, still injured and searching, and downed them, stalling their game even more (even if I'm even just leaving them down and not re-hooking them). Getting a kill with an RBT is only ever a bonus, but when it does happen (and it can happen, even if you're not trying to force the issue, depending on maps, add-ons, and the way the match plays out), it's a complete game-changer and often ends in swinging the match to a win.
-- Her add-ons are better than they used to be. Amanda's Letter is definitely better than it was, and it can be very effective on an indoor map. The Video Tape paired with the Rules Set can also be nasty, particularly on maps that don't have easily accessed Jigsaw boxes (think RPD and Midwich). The Face Mask add-on pairs nicely with the use of Plaything (trapped survivors won't be able to see their totems, keeping them Oblivious and vulnerable even longer), the Slow-Release Toxin eliminates pesky Dead Hards while survivors are trapped, the Tampered Timer/COG combo, even nerfed, can still be very deadly to survivors who don't takes their traps seriously right away (more than you'd realize), and Combat Straps are still a good add-on. The Workshop Grease helps the lethality of the Dash attack, and John's Medical File with the crouching movement. Are her add-ons amazing? No, but there is utility in some of them.
Again, is anything about her S-tier? No, but in the right hands, she can hold her own against good players. Like any mid-range killer, she can get wrecked by a killer taking the wrong chase and wasting too much time getting a down, she needs more slowdown in her build (I run Corrupt, Pain Resonance, and DMS to go with Plaything to get that slowdown) to get from getting gen-rushed out of the game, and a well-coordinated team can be trouble for her. But I rarely have a match where I don't feel like I have any chance. I think the good opponents I go against may underestimate her -- thinking, "It's a Pig -- this should be a cakewalk" -- and that works in my favor as well.
My two cents with my experiences with her. Your mileage, obviously, may vary,
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Mileage is going to vary obviously. Personally I tend to get pretty good results with Pig.
- Pig does move a bit slowly while stealthed, but I've actually found that using it to go from place to place between chases is worth it in order to get close to survivors to hit them before a chase can develop. Obviously once you're in a chase or a survivor has spotted you and is on the move then staying in stealth won't work. But the difference in time to go 30 meters between chases, for example, when in Stealth versus not is actually only about 1.8 extra seconds. That's not totally negligable, but it's small enough that if them not seeing or hearing you coming lets you get in range to hit before they can get to safety that more than makes up that difference in the amount of extra time you'd have had to spend chasing them normally.
- I've personally found her Ambush to be excellent at getting hits out of stealth, assuming you get close enough. It hardly ever misses, and even gets the hit slightly faster than standing back up and swinging normally. Outside of that I don't use the Ambush much.
- Reverse Bear Traps do have varying amounts of slowdown but on average they're worth using.
- Because I like moving while Crouched and using Ambush, I've had pretty good results with just her basic add-on John's Medical File which speeds up her couched movement by +6%. (If you use that, she moves 97% survivor speed while crouched instead of 90%, so that 1.8 second difference I mentioned above becomes only 1 second.)
Mind you, I am NOT claiming that I'm playing her optimally or anything like that. I'm just saying how I play and that I tend to do pretty well with her this way. Play her however you like obviously.
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For starters, her FOV needs to be raised while crouched IMO. I also think she could at least do with a sort of way to mitigate pallets because dropping pallets early completely invalidates her ambush except at the absolute weakest loops (such as the corner outside the main building in Father Campbell's Chapel). Perhaps she could benefit from having the ability to jump the pallet or vault point while ambushing similar to Legion. Enough Killers have ways to shut off the pallet using their power that I don't think Legion's ability to hop it should be special anymore.
Also, I'm really not a fan of that add-on, as I think that can add a HUGE amount of time to searching Boxes and make them too efficient at killing.
I also play Pig a lot and enjoy playing her quite a bit. I just also think she's quite weak.
I've seen this suggestion many times, and every time my opinion on it is the same: That is a significantly larger nerf than it might initially seem. At three boxes, there's no way Survivors have to worry about dying to the RBT, and if they don't have to worry about dying to the RBT, they don't have to respect it, which severely neuters the stalling potential.\
I'm already VERY aware that you have to control the pallet at a loop in order to use the ambush, and that's 50% of the problem (the fact that a Survivor can just pre-drop the pallet and prevent you from having that loop). The other 50% of the problem comes from having to "read" your opponent. That's ALL the ambush has going for it: Making a mindgame and hoping your opponent responds poorly. That's not a strength of the ambush; that's the only way it functions. You don't have control over it; you have to present your move and then your opponent either makes the correct call and wastes your time badly or screws up and gets it. You don't get the final say over whether the ambush is successful, your opponent does. Sure, they ran at the first hint that you might ambush the loop. That's not an assurance that they'll do it a second time. Each time you use the ambush at a loop (at least, one that you CAN do it), you are hoping that you guess correctly because even with the most galaxy brain reads, it still all boils down to whether your opponent read your intentions correctly or not.
Also, I explicitly avoided referring to the RBT's ability to kill because that isn't my problem with it. My problem with it is that sometimes it just does not do a good job at stalling at all. When you get lucky and get reasonable amounts of stall, that IS good. The problem is that there's a reasonable fail-case that the Survivor just gets it off too quickly. On top of that, you'll have competent Survivors who are not afraid of the RBT (since the way they're designed are intentionally meant to not score kills often) and power through gens until the timer starts. Put those together, and you have a very non-negligible number of cases where the Traps don't help slow things down.
Also also, I disagree with her add-ons being better than they used to be. Going add-on by add-on, I think she has roughly the same number of garbage-tier add-ons as she did before her add-on re-work. I think RSN2 + Video Tape is a gimmicky all-in combo that (and I was vouching for its viability before I actually tried it out for myself), and I think all of the add-ons that inflict penalties on Trapped Survivors are trash except for Rusty Attachments which is slightly less trash (though I freely admit that I don't have Hex: Plaything on Pig, so I have never tried that + Face Mask).
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If survivors dont need to respect you while they need to search 3 boxes spread across the map then you arent putting in that pressure or fear.
Having to search 3 boxes is far better than 1, and itd be consistent for all survivors. That's easily 40seconds wasted if you dont even interrupt them as they need to search and cross the map. 40seconds PER TRAP. That's not including addons, I can assure you the RNG hurts her more than a consistent 3 boxes
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well, people play with pig like them wants, regardless of the pressure they put on the survivors or not. Don't try to show your opinion is good by blaming others for their playing styles.
And going back to what you answered above, I don't expect that every RBT I put will kill every survivors, but yes, currently even if situational, there is this possibility, and because fearing this possibility that survivors respect RBTs
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The issue is not that they don't respect the Pig; the issue is that they don't respect the Trap. Why would they? They're not going to die to it if they only have to search three boxes. What's the rush, then? You get off the hook, do one box. If the timer hasn't started yet, you can just do gens from there until the timer starts. Once that timer starts, you only have two boxes left. The only way you might possibly die is if the Pig decides to hardcore crouch tunnel you (at which point, they are throwing away the game).
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Just because I dont share your opinion means my opinion doesnt have merit?
No good survivor fears the traps or even any killer, not to mention you wont get a random head pop unless you're against casuals and they massively mess up and are on an overly big map.
But yes if every survivor with a trap is forced to waste 40seconds and you're not putting pressure on that is on you?
You do realise how often people get the boxes off on 1 or 2 goes right... I dont see how making it consistently more is a nerf but okay. Just different opinions
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The devs say they dont want killers to get kills via secondary powers. This is why pigs best addons got nerfed, it's also been stated with the new killer as well as during pinheads nerfs to addons involving the box.
I'll stand by 3 consistent box searches is better than rng just purely due to its consistent slowdown which will benefit me and my outcome. I feel big needs more buffs but the trap rng is a big issue but we can all have different opinions but personally I'd rather a consistent slowdown rather than 1/50 I'd get a 1k through a trap, I'd get more kills through a guaranteed slowdown
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You're missing the point. I didn't say that it should kill more. I'm saying that weakening the threat of dying to it significantly raises the chance that the Survivors will prioritize finishing the gens over getting the Trap off. You don't want to wait until the gen is already done for the Survivor to stop doing gens.
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Ooo you guys should ping Almo. I know he believes Pig is A-tier.
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Didnt he say Legion is top tier lol
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They dont have time to do a gen with an active trap so your points invalid. No one fears killers unless you're playing at a low level with new players and at that point any killer is strong and feared.
Talking about buffs, not "fear" nothing is scary in DBD and the thing I suggested would provide a consistency pig lacks and would be a buff most games.
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The Trap is not active until a gen is finished, so my point is not invalid. Once they are off the hook, if the timer hasn't started, they can start working on a gen. Heck, there are players who already do that now because they understand that currently the Survivors are favored to not be Killed by a Reverse Bear Trap (which, I must stress, I am not necessarily arguing to be a bad thing). What you are suggesting heavily mitigates the risk of doing gens first and waiting until the timer starts ticking to search boxes (something that is kind of a problem now already).
I don't think you understand what I mean about "fear." I'm not saying that your change would take away from the scary atmosphere that DBD is trying to foster. I'm saying that your change would make Survivors more inclined to wait longer to stop doing gens because the RBTs are now much safer to gamble on. You don't want that at all because the threat of the Trap is the only thing that can push Survivors into slowing down and giving the Pig breathing room. Taking that away really reduces their effectiveness at forcing Survivors to slow down on gens.
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imo she is kinda like phoniex from valorant alot of diffrent aspects of her kit are good but she masters none she has pretty bad stealth pretty decent en RNG heavy slowdown and the only thing she got in chase is ambush
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