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If you complain about camping and tunneling
Then don't complain about Ruin/Undying. Ruin is a perk that can literally only be used effectively if the killer is not camping and instead is pressuing people off of gens.
Don't defend CoH. When everyone has a free selfcare, spreading damage is useless, meaning you have to commit to every chase.
And stop complaining about NOED. NOED is only available if you tunneled gens. If you had done bones instead the killer would be playing with 3 perks.
Comments
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Just because one thing is unbalanced doesn't mean I can't point out other areas that need work.
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Saying NOED is only available if survivors "tunnel" gens is just like saying that killing survivors at all is tunneling.
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People are allowed to complain about tunneling and camping. They're not fun for the Survivor/s.
Complaining about them from a balance perspective is different
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But the number one advice for punishing tunnelling and specifically camping is to crunch gens as fast as possible, so how can I 'do bones' while also counterplaying tunnelling/camping?
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Noed is only available if survivors neglected to do their secondary objective. If they didn't tunnel gens and each survivor did 1 totem (and one did 2) before doing all 5 gens, then NOED would be denied to the killer.
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Imma use this to justify tunneling "you tunneled gens soo..."
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I'm not saying they can't complain, I'm saying that if they complain about tunneling and camping then they better not complain about the things that prevent camping such as Ruin. Otherwise it's like complaining about the number of traffic accidents while also complaining against DUI laws.
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Not really. Killers break walls, break pallets, kick gens, some set traps or portals.....
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Tunneling is ecouraged when gens go by too fast. When you simply don't have time to search for/chase other people, your only reasonable approach is to tunnel someone out since there is no better gen slowdown than forcing a 1v3. When survivors are forced to slow down on the gens to do bones, it becomes viable for killers to spread hooks.
So if you don't like tunneling, then encourage NOED since NOED forces survivors to stop tunneling gens.
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What if you 'do bones' and the killer tunnels anyway, since it's apparently optimal?
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This is the problem with a lot of the discussions on here unfortunately.
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Wasn't the point that it's a chain reaction? One unbalance leads into another?
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Tunnel gens faster.
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But that's in an ideal situation.
Let's say that the killer wins a chase, hooks a survivor, then finds another one using a tracking perk or just by chance.
Ideally, for the survivors:
-One is on hook
-At least one is coming for the rescue
-One is being chased by you
-One is on a generator.
To do bones, one survivor has to get off of their gen, which effectively grinds the game to a halt until they get back on it. For just one hex, this isn't a problem, especially because this won't always be how the game plays out. However, when you need to find and cleanse 5 totems for a perk you don't even know if the killer has or not, it becomes a problem. Not so much for an SWF, but almost impossible for a solo Q player to handle.
I personally don't think NOED is overpowered, however I still think that "do bones lol" is a weak argument to defend it.
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Most people won't since the game is genuinely more fun for the killer as well when lots of chases happen. The fact that most killers still don't tunnel can camp in the current envinroment despite not doing so almost garantees that you will be tbagged and bmed at the exit gates is evidence that most killers tend to avoid tunneling.
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There are only 5 totems per map. Are you saying that expecting each survivor to do a single bone (plus someone doing an extra) is asking too much? Considering how survivor sided the balance of this game already is? I don't believe this for a second.
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Do bones is a weak argument mainly because the best counter to NOED is not to clense totems but rather note their location and return to them if NOED procs.
Maybe clear the last one you find at most to cut down on number. Its rare I don't spot at least 3 a game while just moving around the map.
I'm starting to think people play like they drive, looking at the dashboard only, oblivious to what's around them.
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You usually spot 3 totems just moving around the map, without looking for them.To cleanse all the totems, each survivor only needs to cleanse 1, and someone needs to cleanse an extra. Assuming you're an average player, that means each survivor has the chance of cleansing 3 totems, or 3x their quota. It's not at all unreasonable to expect them to cleanse all 5 of them through the course of the match if everyone helps.
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I agree I was just pointing out that the do bones argument is stupid and unhelpful because you are more likely to find noed on one of the 3 totems you spotted throughout the game than you are trying to search for the 1 totem you never saw while clearing others making that one the only option.
"Take note of bones" would be better advice than "do bones."
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Ruin/Undying stopped being meta like a year ago, people.
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Complaining about tunneling and camping doesn't invalidate peoples complaints about other effects.
Ruin and undying doesn't prevent tunneling and camping. In fact if they are still up after you burn one player out you get even more value out of them.
COH limits hit and run playstyles which means commiting to chases is ideal but that doesn't mean you have to commit to just one person, its possible to play around them and still focus on different survivors its just not as optimal.
Yes players who smash out gens get caught harder by NOED but that has nothing to do with camping and tunneling.
Discussions about mechanics are different from "I don't like this" because one is usually constructive and the other is just whiny BS. Whiny BS people are gonna whine about everything its what they do.
Just don't let whiny BS be the basis for changes to game mechanics because that isn't good game design wise.
Just because tunneling someone out is the best pressure you can apply as killer doesn't mean we need to punish tunneling, rather we need to make sure other strategies are just as or more optimal. In many cases they are not.
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The obvious solution is to make it so that NOED has a built-in undying to it. It should keep jumping from null totem to null totem until all 5 are broken. I'd even go as far as to make this new NOED basekit.
That way tunneling gens will definitely be a thing of the past.
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You are basically creating NOED auto boon which really would just be OP.
NOED is strong but its an all in play, if it gets cleansed its gone but while you have it, its really powerful.
Its pretty well designed and relies on survivors to be concious of its potential every game.
Part of the problem with boons as a mechanic is they can just be constantly reset, no cooldown, no tokens just the time it takes to bless the totem. If they were weak and situational effects then sure no worries but COH is free boosted healing for everyone which really is just nuts. Doing the same thing to NOED with auto totem switching built in is just as nuts.
As a predominately killer player it would be great but from a game mechanics perspective it would just be broken and unfair.
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Each hook state takes 60 seconds, meaning it will take a person being camped two whole minutes to die. Are you honestly arguing that 3 people with a completely free hand to roam around the map since the killer is busy camping for will have a hard time locating and cleansing a lit totem within 2 minutes? In a boon meta where everyone and their grandmother have already most of the spawns memorized already? Nah, if you're camping, you're not going to get any milleage out of ruin.
The whole point of my post was to "make sure other strategies are just as or more optimal". Getting rid of CoH will make spreading damage and H&R viable again. Ruin being popular will activelly discourage camping since you don't get much milleage out of Ruin when you're camping. NOED discourages gen tunneling by the survivors which makes going for chases and 2 hooking everyone viable.
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I don't even see ruin/undying much anymore. Pain resonance has largely replaced it in most games I play. I mean I see it, but not even half as often as I did a year ago.
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A point I forgot on my last post: while making Undying NOED basekit might sound nuts, you need to keep this in mind: it will only be an issue if the survivors neglect doing bones. If they don't tunnel gens and do their bones, then NOED will not even come into play at all.
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The last time I do bone was when my teammate gets tunneled...
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So you want me to throw the game on the off chance that the killer actively decides to not just win the game.
No, no, perfectly sensible! Totally!
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I think players complain a lot about the game. I really love dbd, even If I ver stressed in a match. Some complaingments aren"t necessary or Just people crying
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The healing meta has increased the urgency to tunnel.
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I'm suggesting that one totem cleansed per survivor (plus an extra) is an ideal situation that will not always happen, especially in a solo queue game.
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If it doesn~t happen, then they~ll have to deal with NOED. It's not unreasonable to expect people to adapt.
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No, I want you to not complain about things that actively disencourages tunnelling and camping.
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I still think it’s meta. At least in my matches.
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Survivor meta is to do gens in under 5 minutes and tbag and leave.
Killer meta is to tunnel and camp.
Blame the devs with balancing and horrible sbmm system.
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Are you seeing it as survivor a lot, or are you using it as killer?
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i’m seeing it as survivor a lot, I rarely use it on killer. If NOED isn’t meta it’s at least making it’s way there.
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I see Ruin in like half my survivor games, but it surprises and annoys me every time. As killer, I never use Ruin because it's always cleaned instantly. Ruin isn't strong when that happens because it didn't get to do anything. When a killer I play against has Ruin up all game, I can see why they use it, because they're just lucky and have it in the best possible spot that takes all game to find, or people just aren't looking for it. That's when Ruin is strong. It's either that or it goes down instantly for them, to which I have to say, "Feels bad, man."
But that's my biggest gripe about that old meta, the fact that I can't win with it because half my build gets cleansed instantly, yet somehow people still win with it through dumb, RNG, win-more luck. Ask anybody. You're bound to find people who find hexes polarizing.
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Have you never played against a totem camping killer? -.- pft
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How does it do that, exactly? Because NOED is considerably stronger if the killer camps or tunnels, since it gives survivors less time to prepare for it.
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If a killer is camping a totem then he's giving the survivors a free hand to do gens. So I assume there aren't many of them outside new-guy mmr.
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Because if a killer isn't being gen-tunneled every match than he has the option to go for more fun and engaging playstyles other than tunnelling and camping. And the more common NOED is, the more likely it will be that the survivors will stop tunneling gens and go do bones in order to prevent NOED from triggering.
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I see it almost every other match.
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If you just bring a map and break their hex early, they probably lose that game. After you win a bit doing that, you stop seeing it.
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As someone who plays both sides I don't mind camping but I do hate tunneling/being tunneled
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But alternatively, if the survivors decide to 'do bones', the killer can just opt to facecamp or tunnel to practically guarantee the win.
But I take it that that is your balance goal. Killer wins by default, but if they're in a good mood, they might just opt to have fun and give the survivors a chance.
Again, totes not biased or anything.
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And if you gen tunnel you guarantee that the only way for the killer to win is to tunnel and camp in turn.
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No, the survivor's objective is to survive. By that token a killer can't tunnel either since killing survivors is the killer's objective.
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