I do have an issue with the CoH nerf
But it's not that it's getting nerfed. It's just the approach taken.
If there's one thing that DBD deserves to be commended for, it's the incredible complexity of its mechanics. DBD is comprised of a vast amount of component mechanics. From the big things like generators, hooks and exit switches to smaller components like survivors' breathing, footsteps and the red stain.
That's also what I want to highlight with CoH. Compared to its cousin perks like Desperate Measures and Botany Knowledge, CoH, as a boon, has way more cogs in its wheelhouse. Which is why it's disappointing to me that CoH is simply getting a heal speed nerf.
Addressing only the heal speed, I feel, is going to make this a herculean task that will probably be abandoned at some point. I suspect that CoH, with only heal speed adjustments, will continue to be either overpowered, or an unappealing pick next to its less complicated counterparts. With the competition it has, it's going to be difficult to find the right spot for it.
What I would suggest instead is looking at all the other cogs at play in CoH as a boon. There's a bless time, there's a radius restriction, there's the ability to replant or relocate it.
ALL of these could stand to be addressed as a means to find CoH its own spot. And not only would this give the developers more space to address CoH and finetune it with less direct competition from other healing perks, but it would also open up design space down the road for other boons.
What if, for example, CoH incurred a 90 second cooldown if it got snuffed? Or what if it reduced boon radius from 24 meters to 18 meters? What if it increased bless time from 14 seconds to 21? What if all of these parameter changes set a precedent for other boons, too? Work out a system where every boon's worst stat is considered when multiple boons are picked, to prevent complicated perk-stacking.
All of this would create space for the devs to come up with new ideas, possibly expanding options for boon effects, too.
Just slapping a -25% on the heal speed is comparatively uninspired and cheap, and doesn't do anything to expand on the possibilities of boons as a design element.
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This guy knows whats up. The HEAL SPEED WAS NEVER THE PROBLEM....... The fact that they made a BOON that HEALS is the real issue. Sorry but its just too broken. A 5th perk for every other Survivor that didn't bring it, and gigantic radius, and an infinite amount to place again and again and again and again and again and again. I say 3 strikes and your out. The Killer should Smash the Totem on the 3rd SNUFF!
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Two changes would help it:
- Make the AOE a disc and not a cylinder (or sphere or whatever) so players don't abuse it on multi-level maps.
- Allow killers to CHOOSE to snuff or break it. This opens up an interesting risk/reward gamneplay options on the killer side. (Perhaps after the same totem has been booned twice, the second snuff destroys the totem?)
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yeah maybe give boons a few tokens, but at the same time COH is the only problem so I don't know if that's the right way to go.
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There we go. Some constructive thinking going on up in here!
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Well, the point is, CoH could easily be adjusted individually by messing with parameters other than the heal speed. Even if we went with boon tokens and a limit number of recasts, CoH could be set to, say, 3, while Exponential can have 10, for example.
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While the COH nerf undoubtedly makes it a bit weaker, boons as a whole still present issues in design imo. But the main thing with COH is that it works away from the killer, which is something the other 3 don't do as much of (not saying they don't do anything, but they're generally more powerful when the killer is nearby them), thereby making them less of a problem since it's likely that the killer snuffing it is easier for them and more viable of a counterplay option (vs. going across the map to put out a healing boon that can just be immediately replaced afterwards - it's a lose-lose for them). There's been a lot of ideas thrown around regarding this, ranging from killers breaking totems, having a cooldown, increasing the blessing time with each subsequent bless, a token system, and more. Personally I'm not sure which idea I like the best.
The other big issue I still have with boons though is their verticality. A boon totem has a 24 meter cylindrical range, so on any area with multiple stories (whether that be an indoor map or a multi-level main building) it effectively gets an increased range. So a high-up totem for example means a survivor can be below it and still get just as much value from that totem as if it was at the bottom, but the killer still has to take a (potentially long) detour to that other floor to snuff it.
So imo they should be capped in vertical range as well (a few meters - whatever number would fix this issue but wouldn't impede a totem on slightly changed elevation, such as a totem on a hill tile) to prevent this from happening, and then buff the other perks a bit to make up for that (eg. increase the linger time for SS and DT, and increase expo's recovery bonus or give it an additional effect).
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I agree, but at least it's...something.
The core issue is in the design of boons. Being impossible for the killer to ever really get rid of, and being able to blanket entire maps from a hard-to-access position (RPD, Eyrie, IWOM etc.) just makes them a problem. The effect has to be pretty minor, or else they are game breaking.
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I could be wrong but I think part of problem is that there are probably better suggestions out there for changes but they would take more time.
But I definitely agree with you that this was the wrong approach because of anything what bothered me the most was how you gained no value from snuffing then totem only for that same totem to be re-blessed once you’ve left the area.
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They make the boons breakable for good by the killer and it will solve most boons issues, including COH.
Then they can tweak the perks.
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The possibility to brake a totten being killer is really broken and more op than tottens
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It looks like they want to keep boons a simple on or off thing to keep the coding simple. You know.. less work and effort for them.
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I appreciate that I'm not alone in regards to the heal speed.
Like, a nerf is a nerf, beggars cant be choosers and all that but I was really hoping theyd address the actual elephant in the room
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my suggestion would be to make it so that while running CoH, you can't bless a totem until you break one. (1 break = 1 bless)
that way, there's a built in cooldown and limited uses.
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i think it should work like this. You bless the totem to gain up to a maximum of x tokens. For every heal completed lose a token. If the tokens deplete it auto snuffs. If the killer snuffs it you lose all tokens. I think it's fair and makes it less abusable.
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I mean, it's just like these devs to take the easiest approach. Keys, moris, SBMM, chat filter, god loops, etc. Whichever takes the least amount of effort, or the most unimaginative, they'll do. So long as they continue to think they are in the right (remember, Patrick said Boons were working as intended, without ever clarifying what that meant), then any real changes won't happen for years, if ever.
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U are to weak minded I guess to understand, that boon it's not an issue, why no one can understand that boon gives a survs place who was blessing?? Or for now day killers are lazy to think????
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Here's the problem with your suggestion. The only overpowered boon perk right now is CoH, your changes would nerf all boon perks. That's why the change was done the way it was.
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You're misunderstanding: when I say CoH should reduce boon radius, I mean -specifically- CoH should do so. When I say CoH should incur a 90 second cooldown, I mean -specifically- CoH should do so.
Boons have a ton of parameters to them that could be tweaked on a perk-to-perk basis, which is my point about there being better ways to nerf CoH.
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They're just copy pasting boon code and refuse to put the work in make any changes to the boon mechanics, either in general or on a single perk basis. No doubt it would destroy the duck taped solution they have to make boons work in their bad code. That's why they will never make substantial changes to the underlying mechanics, just futilely hack at the heal speed variable (simple numbers change)
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This,pretty much,while the Circle of Healing nerf is much needed,it doesn't get rid of the main issue that will still be present,which is the fact it will still be an overpowered meta perk that will allow your whole team to heal themselves and others 50% faster that stacks with other healing perks and items.
The only real way to change this is to either nerf Circle of Healing speed more or just add a penalty to boons,because 14 seconds to bless a totem infinitely aint it.
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I don't know if it's going to be overpowered after the nerf, but the problem is that if you ONLY adjust heal speed, it's probably going to end up being either flat better than alternatives, or flat worse.
I'd rather CoH upped the counterplay than diminished the value to put it in a more dynamic spot.
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Can you speak properly?
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Boon itself is already a broken mechanics with too strong or too weak, there is no middle ground and should be removed.
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Yeah, just nerfing numbers is lazy, boring and will sooner or later result in perks being forgotten and unused.
What I had wished for was making boons more a high risk / high reward thing.
Keep the effect strong, so people are using them instead of the four year old meta but when sniffed out by the killer the booner or the whole survivor team suffers some kind of disadvatage.
CoH for example could take a health state off the booner, Shadowstep could give killer instinct on all survivors in range, something like this. Strong effects for the survivors so the perks get used but also a rewarding effect for the killer if they sniff them out.
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While I disagree with your specific suggestions, the idea of boons having a 'curse' applied to the person carrying the boon when it gets snuffed is another example of how boons can be adjusted on an individual level to make them more dynamic and yet also more balanced.
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this thread is unusually constructive and quite respectful in its responses. Very unusual for a dbd forum thread
i like this though, lots of good ideas coming into play.
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I don't think I misunderstand you at all. What happens if you are running Shadowstep and CoH. Both affects stack on the same totem. So now the cooldown would apply to both, which is just as much a nerf of shadowstep as it would be for CoH.
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I would take it a step further and have it destroyed on the 1st snuff. If killer Hex’s get taken out of the game after being destroyed the first time then so should boons.
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Would it be better if the boon only worked for the survivor that blessed the totem and the totem would break once hooked?
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It wouldn't be just as much of a nerf of Shadowstep, it wouldn't even be nearly as much of a nerf for Shadowstep. Shadowstep by itself would be completely unaffected. It just builds anti-synergy with CoH, that is all. But that also creates more design space because you don't have to worry nearly as much about boonstacking becoming a problem in the future.
That would only work if boons had a global effect and required no set-up. This kind of take has been retired already.
That would make it too directly compete with comparable perks again, and with a nerf like that, I don't think Boons would serve any purpose anymore.
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Boon stacking is a major port of the design of boons. What you're calling for is incredibly destructive for any non-CoH boon.
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BHVR tends to take the quickest route to fixing a problem. Often it's not the best solution but it's the cheapest.
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What makes you say that stacking multiple boon perks is a major part of their design?
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While I agree with what you are saying. You at least have to give them some credit. They are trying. Albeit not at the pace we want, and even with reworking dead hard they released the CoH nerf. Now you made some excellent points, but a step is a step. I'm not some "Praise BHVR" person but they at least listened to try to make a change.
I don't think the speed of healing was ever the issue either. More so it's infinite and has a HUGE A## radius while the killer has to waste time just stuffing it over and over if you want a hit and run play style. They are trying at the very least.
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THIS
so much this.
I wish more people had this mentality.
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Effort is one thing, but it's not going anywhere if it's poorly directed. It's basically like watching someone paint themselves into a corner and instead of saying something about it or pointing out what's going wrong, you just admire how good the floor looks.
The devs are trying. The designers are not.
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I agree that Boons do have to be looked at objectively
COH is a healing Perk (so of course it'll be strong) so that part does need to be looked at first and fore most
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Its not the fact that people can heal, its not the pseed either. It's the radius.
The infinite replacement? It's a time sink. If you manage to snuff a totem before 4 people heal from it, there is a net gain in time in terms of survivors working on gens. Not a problem, and can easily be helping the killer.
The healing speed doesnt really break untill there is 3 people healing together.
The fact that people can heal isnt an issue either, because its so much faster to heal on the spot with a teammate and just do gens while you're not being focussed by the killer. SWF can callout exact locations where they meet up, heal up and do a gen at the same time. Boons do not really amplify that as they would need to replace the boon somewhere else(costing time) or would need to leave a gen in the boon range, which then means they didnt really use the boon.
The biggest issue is the radius. Its fine on large maps, but on small maps and indoor maps? Thats where boons start to break.
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Yep.
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I always suggest the possibility of adding a cooldown when the killer snuff the perk; like 90 or 120 seconds of not being able to bless it again. As well as allowing the killer that runs Hex perks to gain back a Hex perk, upon snuffing a Boon perk. As not only does it give the killer abit of ensuring that the Boon Perk is not constantly being Bless all the time for a good duration; but.... it creates a difficult decision making for the Survivor on whatever or not, it is worth Blessing or destroying the totem (between having their own Boon perk active at all times, or be reassure that the killer will not have a hex perk again)
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Thats a huge cooldown for something that's already a timesink. Boons arent as gamebreaking as people think. I did consider reactivating hex perks upon snuffing too, as it would basically be a trade-off for survivors to cleanse or to bless certain totems, but my big issue there is that survivors cannot remove blessed totems, so if there is 4 boons, you would have 5 ruins to deal with before its gone, which is basically old undying again.
If Ruin were to be nerfed, it would actually be fine, Ruin is the reason why I think that's a horrible idea.
With the healing speeds they consider now, I dont see a reason for anyone to run CoH. Botany Knowledge will objectively be better.
And you could always say "yeah, but I have seen X and Y do this, which made it nearly impossible to be picked up which means Exponential broken, and A and B did this with CoH that made them heal in only 4 seconds, which means CoH broken", not considering the weaknesses that those builds bring with them. Would X and Y have lived if the killer took 3-4 seconds to snuff? Would A and B have been able to do so if the killer brought Sloppy Butcher?
That's like saying Pain Resonance is broken because the killer also brought Ruin, Dead Man's Switch, Alchemist Ring Blight and BBQ. My big issue with Pain Resonance is that it's 3x stronger than Eruption and can trigger DMS. If it was just the 15% reduction, I would be fine with it. But the point is that Pain Resonance isnt really super powerful unless combined with other perks. Same applies to boons.
Yeah, if you ignore boons at all, its gonna be devastating, but thats like saying Ruin is broken because you refuse to cleanse it. Ruin is quite powerful if left uncleansed.
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Honestly I think the main change that needs to be made to Boons in general is removing the aura of boon totems. They already have particles that can be seen from a decent distance to tell you where you are. The auras turn boons into kinda intel perks too, essentially saying, "hey, come to this location for safety". I feel like you wouldnt have to worry about people running directly to CoH to heal up as often if they didn't know its exact location at all times.
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They could of just put a 100% cap on healing speed. Wow, suddenly stacking healing bonuses past 100% isn't a problem anymore.
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I don't think that's necessarily a good idea, since that would widen the solo/swiffer divide again, which would make things harder to balance.
I don't think that was ever truly the problem with CoH, and there's no need to brick funny heal meme builds over CoH.
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