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Dead Hard Killswitch
I beg for a killswitch weekend experiment. This perk is totally busted And I want you to recognize by the stats how OP this perk is.
Im not talking about the open field DH attempts that can easily be countered, Im not talking about the average survivor that is allowed a second chance, nor the survivors that use it to get 4 more seconds in a chase by getting an additional looop around the same pallet.
Im talking about the good survivors that you need to outplay, that you need to perform well agains, that nearly become invincible with DH as they very rarely do mistakes.
The medium and bad survivors actually might be better off with other exhaustion perks, so they wouldnt be hurt anyway. But as soon as you 4k a match, you get boosted as killer to survivors of "your level that THEN escaped 4 times in a row" level and dont get **** done. I encoutner it SOOOOO often that a chase should have been ended within 20 seconds as I outplayed the survivor or used my power correctly and then get F by DH, to get my first hook 3 gens later.
Ruin got nerfed with the argumentation of player frustration and 80% usage of all games. The average DH usage is like 3 per EVERY match. How is that not heard and adressed? Just give killers one single weekend to showcase the issue or even refute the "whining" of the whole killer base if you think it is just whining. And share the results
Comments
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I would advocate this if it weren't for the fact that some killers put you in lose/lose scenarios without DH. I think if DH were to get nerfed that would need to be addressed as well. I'm by no means saying that it's balanced or healthy. But many of the good survivors run it expecting these sorts of situations. i.e a ranged killer is going to barely clip you after turning a corner, zoned out by an ability, trying to not get hit through a window 1 second after vaulting. Some may say that these are deserved, but I disagree. The killer will eventually gain enough distance on you that those abilities are unavoidable. And it doesn't take as long as you would think. And zoning is not a playstyle that should be promoted. It eventually becomes less of a skillful play and more "no you can't do x because I can do y". Equally comparable to DH, maybe even stronger as it doesn't require a perk slot.
Balancing every single killer power to account for this would be very hard and would probably take a long time. But if we truly want a "balanced" dbd, or as close as we can get to one, then we need to account for both parties.
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Well, what would you expect it shows?
Please remember, the devs try to balance the game at a 2 kill 2 escape, yet at the moment, most killers beside nurse (which is split between the one that cant get a hit and the god nurses) have a kill rate above 50%.
So, most likly a weekend without dh would just rise that killrate, showing mostly that survivors need a buff or killers a nerf, not the other way around.
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If they balance it to a 2 escape and 2 kill, then they failed. Several streamer showcases and my own impression is that this exact scenario is the least likely to happen. 4k (+hatch) and 0-1k are way more often. The 50-60% killrate of killers is happening because a 4k is followed by a 0k
What I expect? That high MMR escape rates will drastically drop while mid to low will not. I would even like to see an escape rate based on MMR rather than an overall, like they did with ranks when ranks were match making relevant.
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Agreed, but tbh I don't think that they balance teh game around DH. They didnt when killers ran Ruin to a massive extend because they couldnt play the game without anymore
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The killswitch is used for game-breaking bugs or balance issues. Dead Hard is neither.
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I disagree. Purely because if how many times i out played a survivor only for them to out play me with a single button.
Lets face it, the dh lovers/mains are hypocritical as well. If a killer had a perk/power that allows them to out play your outplay as a survivor, every survivor would be up in arms. I mean biggest example: spirit stand still mind game. Everyone hated it. Everyone. I mean maybe except gann. But everyone. You couldnt scroll in a spirit thread with out someone saying that.
Lose/lose situations are fine and needs to happen. Survivors shouldnt be nearly as strong as they are. (Coming from someone who has been playing 60/40 surv). I honestly feel like surviving should dictate your skill in what is supposed to be underdog class.
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So first Killers were not allowed to tunnel.
Then they were not allowed to camp.
Then they were not allowed to slug.
Now Killers should not be able to zone, either?
Coming in 2023: removing M1 attacks from killers, as it was causing Survivors to get put into the Dying State, and that isn't fair.
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Yes, a 4k is followed by a 0k, and on average thats a 50% killrate. And that real killrate is above that aimed for 50%.
So if your test shows what you think it shows, what is the consequense? we know about a way to tilt the game further in favor of the killer, while we need to lower the kill rate for the balance aim? I just dont get what the end goal is.
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Sure, do the same with noed on the same weekend.
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That’s how the game is supposed to be played. You are not supposed to connect all loops and stay alive in a dead zone. You should die if you are a dead zone.
I swear you guys are so used to this OP perk that you have lost touch with balance.
The huge majority of killers would trade noed deleted for dead hard. Noed is not played that much at medium to high MMR. It’s only a noob stomper.
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Yeah lets just abuse the killswitch for some unreasonable killer fun.
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You'd be surprised how many good killers still use noed.
I personally don't have an issue against dead hard or noed, I think both of them are fine as is.
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Sure and every ranged killer gets the same amount of disadvantage. Huntress throws example, make them collide with objects in the world such as trees, rocks and walls. Too many times I've been hit by bullshit hatches that clipped through a wall or other object in the world... Oh and last thing, make hit detection client side on the survivors side, not on killer side. :)
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There's literally nothing stopping you from doing any of those things. Zoning leads to very dull gameplay to where you just lose. You either vault and die or you don't vault and die. That's a very simple example of it, as it can happen in a multitude of ways. But still, I personally want to see less of it and more skillful gameplay is all. But, with the variety of killer powers working as they do, it'd be almost impossible to completely remove. But don't pretend you're on some leash. If you want to play scummy but don't want to get dragged for it, turn off end game chat. It's simple.
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How is getting clipped by a Huntress hatchet when you turn the corner "fair"? How is having a Blight rush a million miles per hour to cut you off "fair"? Or him moonwalk rushing all the way around shack and doing a 180 turn to hit me? Leave just so he catches back up in 5 seconds then do it again?
I understand that not every situation is suppose to put the survivors on the top. But there's often times that death is just something that happens just because. You're put in situations where no matter where you turn you're dead. DH is undeniably a problem. I won't pretend it isn't. And I never did. But there is a reason why it's used so often. It's a band-aid fix for many lose/lose scenarios that also is too good to pass up. Patching one thing and neglecting the other one that justified the existence of the former doesn't fix anything. When DH gets nerfed I promise you that we will see killer changes not too long after.
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- The Huntress had to throw the hatchet, have a good aim and land a successful hit. She can miss you know, and use all of her hatchets, having to reload and waste time. It takes skill, she deserves to hit you if she is a good aimer. The downside is that she is very slow and doesn’t have time to patrol the gens, especially if it is a huge map.
- If a Blight knows the rush around the shack, he is already decent. It means the shack is not safe and you should run to safer tiles.
Yes sometimes, they are no safer tiles and you are stuck in a lose/lose scenario because you or someone else already use all your ressources (pallets). That’s fair because you should have convert these ressources into gen repair time. Keep in mind that the killer already wasted a lot of time by chasing someone here and breaking pallets. You should not be able to use dead for distance and create artificial new ressources by connecting loops, maps are not created with dead hard in mind at all.
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You know they balance the kill rate around 50%, if they disabled Dead Hard and killrates shot up, it would only prove that Dead Hard is needed which would be the opposite result of what you wanted.
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So survivors aren't allowed to try and survive in a dead zone? They're supposed to just not survive and die neglecting the role as a "Survivor"?
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We agree, the "lose/lose" scenarios come from a killer that has well played, or from a survivor that hasn't played well. An error should not be completely removed by a single perk that only requires to be injured.
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Why do you think it's called a "dead zone" ?
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Then why are you getting mad a perk that only delays death for a few seconds in a Dead zone"?
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This is not what the Killswitch is for.
Also, the Devs dont need to disable DH. If they want to know anything, they can look at Survivors in games who dont run DH and compare them to those who do.
A Thread like this was done multiple times in the past. Maybe use the Search Function so that you can read there why your idea is unreasonable.
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Ok well I actually did hate the stand still mind game and I barely did it.
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That's LITERALLY the point of the Killer. You should never, EVER have a get-out-of-jail-free card available at the press of a button for zero consequence in a 1v4 game
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This isn't a 1v1 game. It's a team game(god it needs to be balanced like it though already).
Stop crying about stuff not being "fair" in the 1v1. The killer needs to be able to down people and get pressure somehow or that role is just useless.
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If you as a survivor put yourself in a dead zone you misplayed and should be punished for it yes
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You didn’t outplay them, they used a good perk in a methodical way and outplayed you. If killers use a perk to make a play, they are doing well, but if a survivor uses a perk then they are just using a crutch and should have gone down…that’s how your logic works right?
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from your wording I would guess that you are not even into discussing. Im gonna try anyway just in case Im wrong.
I listed already a bunch of scenarios where Im fine with Dead Hard. Sabo with Dead Hard escape is another one just to extend, where you actually make a play around your perk. I'm talking about the situations where the survivor fails because you outplay them, and they get away for free.
I'm fine with Balanced Landing being used to do gens on second floor. Place traps under the drop, if the tile allows it, cut off the survivor. You can play around it, expect it and just make him run, bait him back to the gen before exhaustion recovers, whatever. Playing around your build is perfectly fine. Read the build and react to it.
Fail and get a free counter after the killer did the better play? Hate it and shouldnt be a thing. So no, what you insinuate is not how my logic works.
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Or maybe surv need to stop being carried by perks.
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Lose/lose situation absolutely should not happen. Skill should always be a determining factor. Spirit stand still mind game was dumb. Deathslinger quickscoping was dumb and took very little skill to just zone people and make them dodge and lose distance.
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Okey so I know the whole DH discussion is a difficult field and I am honest I almost never play survivor.
I am fine with DH for distance but what really grinds my gears is that all the people tell you mind games in the chase are where you show the real skill but then I win a mind game and the survivor needs one button to escape my grasp that just feels cheap to be honest.
Anyone willing to discuss that? Maybe it's just killer bias idk
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And as we know from experience, thats the conclusion the devs will reach.
You should be realistic. While i am a survivor main, i do play both sides, so in most cases, i win and lose alike, but unless i got a challenge or daily, i usually dont even run dh, because my playstyle is not running around in circles the whole time, so in this i could only win.
But if the perk doesnt carry survior, the killrate (and therefore the from the devs perceived balance) would tilt in the killers favor, calling for killer nerfs or survivor buffs to reach that 50% killrate-goal.
I wonder why that seems so hard to understand. Or do people like you just ignore everything they dont like and pretend its not a factor? Who knows...
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They did with ruin, I said in the beginning. Player frustration and pickrate were the arguments. They got rid of the OP perk and adjusted toolboxes, coop progression and adjusted a bunch of perks to match.
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That is the argument for killers. Survivor meta has only changed 1 time in 4 years and Killers are pissed about it and want it nerfed out of existence.
If you can't add stuff to survivors, then you also can't take stuff away from survivors and maintain the 50% escape rate.
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But that’s what the perk is for, to get away when you would go down. That’s the whole point of the perk. You didn’t outplay them if they didn’t go down. They outplayed you while using a perk. It goes both ways though, if killer has blood pact and downs a survivor in a pallet you wouldn’t say the survivor outplayed the killer, but because of a perk they got the down- right?
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Let me try this slowly.
You know that ruin is a killer perk?
if the kill rates are titted in favor of the killer, nerfing a killer perk does what? Right, not tilting it further in the killers direction, in contrast of nerfing a survivor perk, which would tilt the balance in what direction?
While pickrate and frustration might be a part of it, it also furthered their goal, not moving it further away.
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that would include that killrates were strong during that time
but killers had to run ruin to keep up with gen speeds. thats why with ruin changes toolbox and coop slowdown followed short after
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every other perk has conditions to trigger, get a vault, a drop, for the pallet blocker you need to zone properly or with the speedboost you can simply dash out of blocker range. and you can cleanse it. DH is just active always and can be used multiple times like you HAVE to down that guy or eat it again. DH is like old MoM and that only triggered once but got nerfed instantly. and imagine DS would trigger 3 times a match
and u insinuate again
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so punish the less skilled for what the highly skilled do, with nothing done to the killers to level it for the unskilled?
makes sense /s
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I pointed that out in my OP as well. Waiting out dead hard in the open is not the problem, you extend the chase for 2 seconds. The problem is skilled players that can already loop for a minute and extend it to 90 seconds with that perk. Average players probably get more value out of any other exhaustion perk
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right, but you're essentially saying it should be nerfed, which would mean the unskilled survivors would be f##### six ways ot sunday, just because someone out there is actually skilled with it. That doesnt seem very constructive for anyone. Instead of nerfing DH for everyone, rework it so it cant be used ad infinitum. Gives the newbies a chance to learn how to use it effectively, limit the good ones from abusing it.
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Dead hard will be reworked, this is already a fact, but what bothers me is that people think that dead hard automatically guarantees 1 extra life health without any requirement or downside
First, it's not pressing a button whenever you want, you need to be injueried. And second, if you are not in the right place nor even knowing what you're doing, it's literally the worst of all exhaustion perks.
ps: Killswitch is only for things not working properly and harming the game.
ps: It reminded me nurse with range addons, which at this point also speed up her blinks since 2 patchs ago.
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I repeated that already and also had it in my OP. The problem is that the good players become nearly invincible, not that an average player extends the chase by 2 seconds open field or maybe 6 seconds to run an extra loop around a pallet. And being injured is not really that bad of a condition? I mean, #########? You can argue that insta down killers counter DH, but even they can't play power-only.
PS. they announced it like that but they are the masters and can always rearrange it. for the vanilla experiment you needed to sign up and create a PTB, if they would need stats like that they could use the killswitch to get rid of all the overhead. you could argue that removing dead hard should be a PTB to not affect players who want their DH so bad, but actually they do the same with MMR tests right now without a PTB
PS. yeah, range addons should be killswitched.
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One of my few ideas that I had already posted on the forum was exactly rework Dead Hard to counterplay unexpected situations (hits ignoring healthy state), that is, killers with one hit powers or with perks/addons that make survivors exposed, turning the chase into a common situation like any other m1 killer. So the perk would lose strength against the overwhelming majority of killers who don't have these one hit powers/perks/addons.
so i think it will decrease the amount of times DH will be used in matches, as it will be risky to lose a perk slot with something that can't be useful all times, like DH currently is .
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