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Grades are better until rank reset?
So in the MMR tests and them explaining what they did I find the grade section most interesting as the devs clearly states it's a good system but the real issues is when good players dont play in awhile and get reset...
So theory, grades is better because it's not just based of kills/escapes. However because of rank reset it can be an issue and without it people will often reach a certain point or the maximum.
Could we remove rank reset and remove the safety pip option (you either win or lose) and then each killer has their own grade. (These grades can be hidden just to not confuse people)
Summary: use grades, remove safety pip and rank reset and have each killer with a separate grade. Have a tight range in grade matchup (iri can only match with iri, purple with purple etc.)
Comments
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...Did we read the same update?
The grade-based test seemed like a complete failure from how they described it. One sided matches, with kill rates going completely haywire to be too high at the top + too low at the bottom. It wasn't just because of rank reset, it's because the grade system doesn't accurately reflect skill on a large enough scale to work as a matchmaker as well as having the flaw of players who haven't played for a while getting lowered too far.
(Also, they... seemed to be portraying seeing grades as negative, not positive?)
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Honestly the reason the grade system does better at matching players is because they are actually skill based. To pip you need to do enough to get the pip. If you are a potato you don't keep going up. I personally feel like the grade system has turned into a bp farm should as the devs like to say be about how much you play. No skill needed you just get points for playing (actually have to move and play and not just afk). The MMR system needs to take more into consideration then just kill or escape. The survivor who looped a killer for 4-5 gens and gets face camped showed more skill then the three that touched gens and opened the door.
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The grades could last a little longer imo and now they're pretty worthless. Never played enough to reach red, but even if I did, what's the point if you can't maintain it.
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They said they know the grades wasnt working due to full resets, you cant lose a grade etc. They admitted it's a good system until a reset or people not playing in awhile .
Maybe I misread the visible grades section but it sounded like they said the community was happy when seeing the grades
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Dont forget grades changed, you cant loose a grade anymore not to mention it was at the end of the month and anyone could of got to iri 1.
Well that's why I say use grades as it goes off skill abit more but remove the safety pip and reset?
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They said that the grade test resulted in skyrocketing kill rates higher up but horrendously low kill rates lower down, with a ton of people complaining about one-sided matches. That's not a good system, they just concluded that one of the flaws with it is that players who take a break get lowered too far on top of everything else.
Also yeah I think you did misread that part - my read is that people liked seeing visible grades during the grade-based test, because the grades matched. They do not like seeing grades when they're mismatched - like the example you gave. Since grades are going to be mismatched in actually balanced matches (due to them not functioning well for matchmaking), hiding them makes perfect sense and I agree with that decision.
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Well I'm suggesting use grades but remove resets and the safety pip and this will make you get to a spot where you go up and down (settle in your bracket)
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Grades are not going away, they are simply not shown post-game.
You still see your grade and play for monthly BP rewards.
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Yeah but that's because theres so many things changed with grades and they acknowledged that, but if you remove the reset and safety pip I do feel it be a good system
And yep I just went back and missed a whole section, RIP. Sorry about that must of skipped past on my phone, I'll edit that out, thanks!
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From what I read in the update, grades were a complete disaster. It sounded like they wanted to head off people saying, "But grades aren't the same as ranks because you can't go down and rank reset," so they added text saying, "We know that there are differences so this isn't the same as enabling rank-based matchmaking for these reasons, but we tried it anyway because it was close enough and we saw the same issues we saw previously."
Kill rates of 80% are just not ok for a PVP game. Imagine a symmetrical game where the red team won 80% of the time and blue won 20% of the time. You'd start wondering what's wrong with the game. Maybe asymmetrical is different, but we've got a scenario where 4 of the players lose 80% of the time.
If you watch Otz's stream and watched him attempting his Artist streak, you'll realize that he completed his Artist streak during the grade-based matchmaking test. When I was watching him play it on that day, the survivors were acting very strange and playing in ways that didn't make any sense for him to be playing against. He started barely having to try to win every game.
I think if you saw the same thing I did and your opinion is that it was good matchmaking, you and I just have different opinions about what matchmaking should do.
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To clarify a few things:
- We did not say the old ranking system was good in this post. I'm not sure where you got that bit.
- The reason why we did it right before grade reset is to give people as much time to settle into their grades as possible. We ended the test before grade reset because that would set everyone to 20. This would cause absolute chaos matchmaking. This is different from the ranked system where you'd only reset a little.
- The test was not going great until the reset. It was fairly mixed, although the grade reset (in its current implementation) would have made it a lot worse.
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Grade system is better, they just needed to make getting a pip actually hard and not make it easier the lower you are.
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Because you acknowledged the issues behind the current system such as you cant lose a grade, rank reset, people that haven't played in awhile. Grades wasnt used for matchmaking means alot of players will naturally hit the iri 1 mark even if they was bad.
My point being is you acknowledged all those issues and the fix to those issues would be pretty simple as you mention the issues with using grades and them resetting.
So using grades, which naturally track more than kills/escapes but removing the reset so people who dont play in awhile dont go lower. I then suggest removing the safety pip, this means you win or lose and this would prevent players slowly climbing to an area they dont belong in skill wise.
And finally I suggest each killer has separate grades. Its basically an mmr system but based of in game actions rather than the outcome. The old grade system only failed due to the safety pip, reset and killers all sharing grades.
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It's really funny that they could have just tweaked the grades system to be more indicative of skill, instead they are trying to shove this fertilizer based matchmaking down our throats despite being a massive failure in every form and iteration. It doesn't matter how tight the number ranges are devs, as long as they don't mean anything, and they don't because skill=escape/kill oversimplifies to the point of it being completely useless, it's not going to change anything. High level killers will stomp baby survivors and the cracked survivor teams will bully the newbie killers. Really is a mercy kill once the servers shut down due to a lack of players buying the 10.000th Feng Min cosmetics.
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DBD is not symmetrical, so you cant even use that as a balancing point.I'm also not saying the current grades is a good system for multiple reasons such as
- Grades was not used previously for mmr and so many people climbed to grades they wouldn't.
- There is still a safety pip, this means just naturally everyone will climb the grades, this is why I suggest removing it.
- You also currently cant go down in grade, this means all these players have climb in grade over a month as its impossible to go down.
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Grade system is not better. People can manipulate it so easyly. And plus rank resets will be probem, good players will face with new players after resets for while.
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The caveat they included in the post about how the grade system matchmaking PRIOR to introducing SBMM was relatively less lopsided than the test was to indicate that the test was distinctly worse results than "the before times" but that even when grades were more controlled in the past, the matches were still prone to high variance and unpredictability because ultimately grades have never been an accurate predictor of skill.
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People can manipulate any system so I dont think that's a fair argument.
But my point was grades track everything you do, if we removed the reset, allowed you to loose grade again, removed the safety pip people should naturally fall into a bracket based on what they do instead of kills/escapes
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Yes, but that's why I suggested extra steps such as removing the reset and removing the safety pip.
The big issue with the old system was you could safety pip 5 times, pip once and eventually you will get to iri 1 however if you remove the safety pip you would have to consistently play well to achieve that and less players would be miss placed as it's not so much focused on time played
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If anything, the solution they're presenting sounds to me like it'll functionally resemble what people came to expect the old system to do - but wasn't doing.
Think of the effective skill cap as "iridescent ranks" and then ash/silver as the "low-mid MMR" range (where the reduced range is meant to prevent these players from getting thrown up against "iridescent" players). If you're good enough to reach "iridescent tier" you'll participate in a thunderdome that inescapably includes the ultra-sweat squads but otherwise is a varied mix of folks who are just generally good enough to be treated as competitive.
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Personally I get better matches under MMR than the old emblem system. I definitely wouldn’t be in favor of going back to that.
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the reset exists for another reason though. It is to keep you playing monthly, to keep up logins and steam charts. If people would reach red ranks and not have to do it again, many would play less = less hap[py devs.
Both the grind and rank reset exist to keep you playing.
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Just seems like an overly long and unnecessary process. They could of simply removed reset and the safety pip years ago and it would probably result in a close SBMM.
I have no idea what the devs are aiming for, they're trying to balance for all levels which isn't possible.
Its pretty simple for me, if the SBMM gets more strict and longer lobbies I'll quit for good. I'm already on a break as the games just arent fun
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I know DBD isn't symmetrical. I said that in my comment. Even if DBD is asymmetrical, it is still not acceptable that one side wins 80% of the time. I gave a comparison as if it was a symmetrical game as a way to make it more obvious that this isn't right. If you think that DBD being asymmetrical means it's ok for one side to win 80% of the time, you and I have fundamentally different opinions about how matchmaking should be in this game.
And yes. The reasons you stated are reasons why grades would be worse than ranks. They stated those exact reasons in the blog post. I stated them in my post. I'm not really sure why you felt the need to repeat them.
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It's hard to explain but you have your grades used for matchmaking and the grades for the monthly BP.
So BHVR sees a separate grade which is used for matchmaking but it's based of actual ingame actions not just escapes while the player doesnt see it and still has that BP to aim for
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That 80% kill rate really got some mouths watering.
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This.
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Going back with improvements, the old system had flaws such as reset, safety pip etc. But without that I feel it could definitely be a good system
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I feel people are getting confused with what I'm saying, I'm not saying use the current grade system as is but go back to tracking the whole match while editing the parts which made the system fail
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I know. They also need to make getting a pip hard across all ranks instead of making it easier the lower you are.
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My problem is that I really liked the concept of ranking based on emblems instead of kills/escapes, even if the emblem based rankings didn’t work out well for matchmaking.
Emblems encouraged killers to hook every survivor, to get in lots of chases, and go for lots of hooks. Emblems also encouraged survivors to get in chases with killers instead of trying as hard as possible to avoid the killer. These are all things I think are healthy for the game. Now we have a system that only cares about kills and escapes, which encourages killers to hardcore proxy camp and tunnel, and encourages survivors to interact with killers as little as possible.
As an example, in the emblem based system, I had a lot of matches that said “you only got a 1k, but you got a lot of hooks, and you went on a lot of good chases, so we’ll count this game as a draw (safety pip). In the SBMM system, the same match would say “you only got a 1k, so you lose. Kills = skills, so you should have tunneled instead of wasting your time trying to interact with all the survivors”
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The problem is that neither does MMR, since it’s still only based on wind and losses. I’d try actually wanted to improve matchmaking, the better changes would be targeted at what determines skill outside a win and loss first and then these other things second.
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It’s worth noting that the devs mentioned that they specifically timed the test with using Grades to coincide with the end of the month when most players would be at their ultimate grade already so the reset wasn’t a factor in the results when they said Grades had poor performance as a matchmaking rating.
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I'm not necessarily here to defend the concept of an MMR system again, but it seems really weird that people insist the MMR system cannot possibly measure skill when it's such a commonplace method of matchmaking. Surely if it's this well-trodden and studied, there must be at least some benefit to it?
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Well that's why I read it as grades is a good system but it has all X flaws. And I agree that the test went bad but that's because of all the listed issues.
Like your point it was near the end of the month, alot of players will reach iri 1 within that time especially with a safety pip, cant go down a grade and it not being used for actual matchmaking.
I hit iri 1 survivor in a few days, I pip every game (unless face camped) and I double pip alot. Other people it takes a whole month to do so
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Yes, of course MMR can possibly work, but in its current iteration these kinds of nonsense changes don’t do anything to address the fundamental flaws with the system as it is. Obviously, people who are escaping more tend to have more skill than those who are not, but then you also have the thousands of Claudettes who hide in a corner and get the hatch. In comparison, ranks had less room to slip by, as you had to actually contribute in all areas to advance. Getting into this same song and dance with BHVR just makes them look like they are spewing nonsense and doing even know how their own fans actually works.
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What's the insane flaw in your testing - GRADES CANNOT BE LOST. Unlike the old ranking system you can't lose a grade until rank reset,thus muddying the waters insanely. This is an unfair comparision lmfao
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Grade reset without changing the grade color, grade 1 reset to grade 4 etc... no problem anymore.
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In my case I play one or two matches a night on whatever random killer I have a mission on so I never get to Iri, I just don’t play enough games in a month to gain a grade every night (I don’t know what my win rate is but it’s not that ridiculously high that I could hit Iri in just 50 games.)
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The MMR system we have is a very normal one, at least in core design. Number goes up if you win, number goes down if you lose, with some adjustments to how much to compensate for a few variables. That's just how MMR systems work.
Grades did have 'less room to slip by', and they were also terrible + did not work as a matchmaking tool.
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You don't have to kill a single survivor to pip up to Gold IV. By that time your MMR is so low you can stomp your way up to Iri.
Not to mention you can lose pips without going down a grade. Meaning you can tank your MMR with each grade level and get easy matches for 5 pips.
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See I'm quite different, even though I'm off peak I will play alot especially if I have a free day. Obviously this depends if I even want to play DBD and I'm not bored of it.
As for winning I have a high escape rate (whether people want to believe it) and I can "win" as a killer most games too (2k) but killer I struggle more pipping wise, because sometimes to win I'd get brutal.
I dont think I get iri 1 on killer anymore, I just dont play it enough and I cant play in a fun way so it puts me off. But on survivor I can easily have fun and do it, I enjoy my chases just a shame I dont see 90% of killers
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Hatch doesn't affect MMR. You cannot go up in MMR rating by hiding and getting the hatch. It counts the match as null and doesn't count it.
You MUST escape through the gate for your MMR to go up. It's unclear if gate escapes after hatch is closed count as an escape. I personally think it shouldn't because I think that it's still random, but they haven't told us what happens in this specific scenario.
As you reference, if you hide all game to wait for hatch, you are much more likely to die since your team is playing a 3v1 and you'll eventually get found. If you are bad in chase, the killer is more likely to prioritize you when they see you since, to them, it's an easy chase and easy hook. Then your rating goes down.
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Ranks, not grades.
Ranks were honestly at least more consistent and fine than MMR, especially before it was changed so Rank didn’t fully reset.
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Really my point was that there are a lot of players who don’t do well at all but ultimately escape. Hatch was an admittedly bad example of such. Though, players who do hatch out are keeping their standing abs therefore have an easier opportunity to move forward in the next match.
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It's the same system, so the word doesn't quite matter. The only difference is that grades reset all the way, and ranks didn't, they're still calculated the same way and thus it's still relevant to point out that the rank-based system was awful and categorically unfit for purpose.
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you get 1 million bloodpoint per '1 red rank' everymonth
I get rank 1 killer and survivor every month to get those 2 million bp
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The Grade based matchmaking could work but you did it for 2 days only using a grade system that is very flawed.
Running this test over the course of 1 - 2 months with allowing players to lose grades as well as gain them would most likely result in a really bad start of the test with everyone having better games near the end of it (as their grades will have settled to their skill level)
The beauty of the Pip system is it ranks you based on what you did in the match not on if u just escaped or killed. It ranked you based on what you did in the match as a whole not just on how it ended. For example as a killer if you camped the hook you would gain less ranking because it has a negative effect on the emblems. this to me is a lot better judge of skill than if i killed someone. Also is it really a "skilled" killer if 3 survivors just decided to kill themselfs on hook just because your running a certain addon (pinky finger clown for example).
Also if your going to hide the grades from everyone apart from yourself then just remove the entire system. Hiding the grades renders them kinda pointless.
I personally use the grades to determine why the match went the way it did. If as a killer i destroy the survivors (5 gens remaining all 4 dead) but i see all low grades I assume that the matchmaking was a bit scuffed and thats why it happened. On the flip side if i get destroyed and i see 4 irry grades i assume the same.
I understand that grades can be seen as just play time but anyone who plays more in a month will of course be better at the game as they have more practice. I never leave bronze rank as i don't play enough but when i did play more often i would often hit irry rank (back when it was ranks not grades).
If you don't want to show grades then remove the entire system and instead award BP for each side based on the amount of kills/Escapes you get in that month on a scale.
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One problem with the grade test is the safety net players have now where they don't drop a grade from negative pips. Someone that makes it to red now could've been stuck in green before because of that safety net. The grade system now is definitely worse than the previous rank system for matchmaking because of that.
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Absolutely. This, among other reasons, is why we don't consider this to be a 1:1 test of the old system. We made sure to call it out in the post. We did what we could to give it the fairest shot we could, but we definitely do not consider this a conclusive test of rank matchmaking. There is simply no way to test a system like that in 1-2 days.
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