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Leave David Alone, He's Gay Period.
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Is that real deal what happened?
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because for the last time the team that writes lore will continue to write lore and the gameplay and UX and UI teams don't suddenly go "oop there's a gay character being written let's just change our entire plans" because that's not how it works?????? at all????????????
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So dead hard users are gays? Joke
Btw: David doesn't look like a gay AT ALL. For me he's straight.
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that's the very shortened down tl;dr version that doesn't spoil too much of it, but yes. id really advise reading it yourself because it has an impact
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im talking about BHVR can u even read?. the studio is composed by different teams but thinking they dont intereact and talk eachother when they do those streams playing all together and discussing different things... dont be denial.
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and they communicate but the lore team won't suddenly make the balance team not change circle of healing because mikaela is a lesbian??? cmon babes common sense
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how does one "look gay" without being homophobic quickly
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Some people have really silly attitudes. I remember when I was in high school, someone asked if I was gay because my favorite color was purple. Heck, even my own mother gave me sus vibes because I wanted a pink phone case.
They are just colors, bruh.
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We don’t claim people like you so bye.
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No one was asking about your opinion lol xD
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@TheGannMan what's your opinion on that comment?
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LMAO
That the humor in that comment was the only redeeming factor.
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Think. I'm not here to answer. Let's not be sensitive now accusing people. Don't pretend to be a victim calling others homophobic without proof. Live your life. I fk don't care at all
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You didn't answer my question
And you'll have to forgive me for telling the person who, as per their own admission, doesn't support LGBT, to not be homophobic.
Post edited by GoodBoyKaru on5 -
lol
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cope
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Already said it somewhere else, but I'm just gonna say it again.
I think this whole thing has been a step backwards in my personal opinion. Not because he's gay, but because of the way it's been handled, both by BHVR and by the community. A person/character being gay, is not something special; so why are we treating it as such? Why can't we just act like it's the norm for a character to be gay and move on? Treating others differently because of their race, gender, orientation, et cetera.. Aren't these the things people want to avoid?
Or is it only when the treatment is negative? In that case, should Jane or someone be celebrated and have an announcement for liking the opposite sex then?
In all honesty, good for bhvr and it's nice to see a gay character, but.. I genuinely don't see why they, and by extension we, need to big it up so much. Just let a character be a character, whatever they're into.
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I don't either I use more on my hooks to see them better.
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Because that isn't how these things are treated outside of the video game space.
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Yup. This is basically where I've been for the last...maybe decade. It feels like we've moved backwards somehow.
It really is though, at least in the modern West.
Or maybe things are changing (which is honestly even worse) - but I remember a golden era back in the late 90s and early 2000s, where it...really wasn't a big deal. I mean, we had two gay chaps in our residence at Uni and they were just other dudes. We were even able to have a bit of fun banter with them.
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If only our experiences matched up. This really isn't how things are treated in the real world because while most people are like "oh that's cool whatever" it's the people in power with the prejudice and they're really trying to make our lives a living hell and get us back to pre-60s legislation. So, sadly, it will always be a big deal until the war against our existence at a legal level is finally over, which won't be for a hell of a long time if I so much as glance at Florida, Texas, or the UK Gov and conversion therapy.
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The lore doesn't even matter. He can be straight in your realm and that's fine.
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Perhaps in your personal circle, but absolutely not in the world at large, be it West or otherwise.
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Hmm. Okay, let's dig in here a bit. Keep in mind that I'm talking about the LG and B, because the 'T' is a contentious topic and even progressive circles are massively split on even the fundamentals.
- Are the people in power really like that? About the closest I can think of is maybe MTG (who's a complete whackadoo) and maybe Pence and at worst, they simply believe some mildly regressive stuff - I can't think of anything they've actually done.
- Can you name me a single, current piece of legislation that targets homosexuals in a negative way?
- UK government...not sure what you mean. As far as I know, they've said that they think it's better to go at it at a social level rather than a legal level, as far as getting rid of conversion therapy goes - which Labor and co. spun into 'you hate gay people' somehow, despite them coming out strongly against it.
- As for the rest, I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, it's not expressly forbidden by law - but that doesn't mean the sort of aggressive conversion disorder you're likely thinking of is commonplace, and it is forbidden in many places when it comes to minor.
That all said, it's a very complicated topic, because a lot of the laws count any sort of theraputic intervention as conversion therapy, even when it's made at a patient's request.
I'd say it is, but without any sort of more specific assertion, there isn't much I can say other than 'I disagree'.
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- "Can you name me a single, current piece of legislation that targets homosexuals in a negative way?"
There is a law recently created in Florida that forbids the teaching of sexual orientation in schools.
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No, there isn't.
If it's the bill I'm thinking of (DSG) - it only forbids it in Kindergarten through...it was either second or third grade. Either way, I don't see how that targets homosexuals - it's more about the appropriateness of any sort of sexual education for very young children. Why the hell do kindergartners need to learn about sexual identities? I don't think that kids that young have any idea what a sexual identity even is.
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I didn't say it forbade the teaching of sexual orientation across all grades. I said that it forbade the teaching of sexual orientation in school, which you seem to agree with.
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Yes.
I agree with it. Completely.
There is absolutely no need for any sort of sex-ed in kindergarten, whatsoever. 4th Grade (so kids around 9 or 10) still seems a little early for me, frankly - until your age is at least in the double digits, I don't see any good reason to teach about anything sexual.
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I think I understand why you seem to think that things are going peachy keen in the modern West regarding this topic. I suggest you stop digging your grave.
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If you want to give some other examples, feel free.
On this topic, I'm completely willing to say that - no - kids of that age lack any concept of sex, and thus any topics of this nature in school are massively inappropriate.
But okay, let's flip the chessboard for a second. What are your reasons for *supporting* the teaching of sex-ed in kindergarten? I've yet to get a straight answer on this one from anyone.
That said:
Calm jets.
I don't think it's any sort of agenda.
BHVR are a business, and this is an ingenious bit of marketing. It's gotten more people talking about the game (both those who are annoyed and those who are jubilant) than I've seen in a while - and it buys them a decent bit of good will.
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I think I've gotten everything I need to know from you. I think my time is better spent discussing things with better people.
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Better people? Do explain.
You made an assertion, I explained why I disagreed with you. Your only response is an ad-hom.
If you're implying that I'm a bigot of some sort, I don't think that it's in any way bigoted to say that kids that young lack any sort of sexual identity and thus teaching them about this stuff at that age is simply not appropriate.
Why not just let kids be kids, for as long as possible?
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Why can’t a game just be a game? Are people really debating over a GAME characters sexuality smh
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I 100% agree with you
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Eh, if it segways into an interesting discussion (and if the mods are okay with it), I don't see the harm.
These are really complicated, really important issues that we need to thrash out - and that's going to mean some fairly awkward, very nuanced conversations.
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They could've actually made a paid survivor gay since it's stunning and brave. Not retcon a free survivor that no one plays after they unlock the meta on their favorite survivor.
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I really hope you take this argument and are entirely against any and all forms of children learning about heterosexuality too, then, because homosexuality isn't, shockingly, intrinsically sexual and it's a mistake to believe it is. I had feelings of being gay since I was a kid, and proper education would've been an absolute godsend into making sure that I had any form of stable mental health. It also helps to correct issues of bullying and homophobia in children.
That's the joys of education, you can easily fix the mistakes of the parents if you can teach people otherwise. It's when you're not even allowed to teach that you basically lose hope of ever helping to create a better generation.
Then again, after our many other discussions on this topic, I can't even say I'm shocked at this development.
Post edited by GoodBoyKaru on2 -
I was feeling I'm into anyone ever since I was like 5 or 6, but I didn't know what those feelings were, nor could I tell I was special because of that. I learnt about LGBT at 6, and was taught by my mom to despise it. At 10, I was lucky to learn on the internet that LGBT people don't chose to be so, and it's actually a way you're born. By 12, I had already figured out I was pansexual. Do you know how it felt to feel special, in a world where being special is despised by everyone around me? From 6-10 I was so scared that I was a weirdo for liking anyone. I thought I made some bad decisions perhaps.
LGBT people feel they're different from a much younger age than 2 digits. And by that point, you would most likely have been exposed to the LGBT, and unfortunately for most people, in a bad light. Kids learn about heterosexuality from very young ages (maybe 3, 4, 5), so what exactly is wrong in telling a 6-7-8 yo that there are some people that like their own gender, and they are just absolutely normal?
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Are you saying kids can't be kids if they have the knowledge that different people exist? Should we shelter those kids from different cultures too then? After all, you're saying kids are too stupid to understand that people can be different, yet... They are smart enough to understand gender roles and gender norms... It's called the socialization process where parents and their social environment teach their kid what is expected of them in our society. They teach boys to play with toy cars and girls to play with dolls, boys to like the blue color and girls to like pink, ... So children do know differences and it's way more than biological differences. Genderroles and gendernorms are social constructs.
Children are smart as hell, at a young age they learn everything of what it means to be a boy through all kinds of media. So why not adapt the content of this knowledge to the 21st century?
It's not like your kid gets traumatized by the knowledge that not everyone is the same. My uncle is gay. From the moment I was born, I knew not everyone was heterosexual and it's not like I woke up from nightmares of my morally corrupt uncle kissing another man in a dark alleyway.
Like, how can you sit there and claim that the idea that you need to shelter your kids from the LGBT+ community isn't insulting.
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Mm. It's...complicated, but broadly - yes, I am. As so far as any sort of sex-ed goes in a scholastic context, I'm as against heterosexual sex-ed as I am against homosexual sex-ed for kindergartners.
It's not entirely sexual but yes, it does have an intrinsically sexual component - which is why we refer to it as a 'sexual identity'.
I don't think you can really detach 'attraction' from sexuality, because that's broadly what attraction is. It's not some vague notion of two souls finding each other - we are very much where the falling angel meets the rising ape, and 'attraction' mostly comes down to us wanting to pass our genes on.
I'm also not saying 'never', but I am saying that 5 is way too young to broach anything like this. And if that makes me some sort of retrograde dinosaur, so be it.
Generally though, school based sex-ed shouldn't be necessary at all. The fact that it is necessary is a failing of parents.
And yes, we disagree on some stuff. Is that a bad thing? I really hope you aren't going to try and spin this as 'StarLost is a massive bigot' again, because that's not at all what this is.
When it comes to extremely young kids - I'd rather be cautious.
Of course not.
But I am saying that 5 is too young to be learning what 'gay' means. 5 is also too young to be learning what 'straight' means. Because 5 is a time of life where you're only just starting to understand what reading is.
I'm fine with this stuff being taught...frankly, I think 4th grade is still too young, but it's definitely better.
I totally disagree that kids have any idea of gender norms at 5. I don't think kids really even have a solid concept of gender at 5.
If you literally came out of the womb with an understanding of this stuff, I'm not sure how to even respond to that. And no, this isn't about the LGBT community, this is exercising a little bit of restraint when it comes to teaching extremely young children the facts of life.
And no, kids aren't smart. At all. Kids are kids. I think that any broaching of subjects like this are massively inappropriate until kids are a lot older, and that extends to any sort of formalized education about romantic attraction and sexual identity.
If kids are bullying other kids for whatever reason, stop it. But that's the age where you say 'bullying is bad' not 'bullying someone because they are gay is bad'.
See - this is where language is so important.
When you say 'into' or 'learn about heterosexuality' what exactly do you mean?
EDIT: I think I'm going to bow out of this one now, unless someone really wants to keep going on this topic. It's an extremely touchy subject and, as I'm on my last 'forum life', I'd rather not risk annoying a mod again.
Post edited by StarLost on0 -
According to a mod thats not like that only one survivor for one world is taken and this david is gay I have same idea.Presenting different Davids from different Terra worlds
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I'd definitely go in a 'Crisis On Infinite Davids' direction - how else can we have 4 Davids in the same match :) ?
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I mean that kids learn from a very young age that boys like girls and girls like boys. And there's no one to teach them that that isn't always the case. And LGBT kids feel they are different from a lot younger than you would think. It's true that actual sexual attraction only kicks in during puberty, but a very dimmed kind of attraction is present from early ages.
I'm not saying that kids should be taught in detail about any sexuality (at least untill they're old enough). I'm saying, that just as a 4 year old knows that he will have a girlfriend (you know, in his understanding of what a gf is), what exactly is wrong about telling that kid something like "you can be together with whomever you like, regardless of gender". It's nothing sexual. It's nothing that corrupts the 4yo. As long as teaching the 4yo about straight people is fine, so is teaching about other people.
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Well so long as you're fine about fairy tales being about a woman and a man being together then good for you, at least you're not hypocritical about it.
The problem with DSG comes from the fact that heterosexual everything is perfectly fine, and hearing about a husband and wife being together is perfectly fine and encouraged, and yet 2 husbands is suddenly a horrific crime, inappropriate, predatory, etc.
Edit: just seen your edit on your wish to bow out, and I'm not particularly interested in arguing over semantics today because I'm genuinely exhausted of this topic now, so unless you also have something to say I feel like we can just leave this one here.
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I'm not sure if it can be separated out like that, and even if it can - it's really tricky and something I wouldn't necessarily trust anyone else to do. If I'd wanted to tell my kids about this stuff at 5...I'd want to be the one doing it.
You say 'dimmed attraction'...I'd reckon it's something a little different - either extremely innocent playing out of roles they've encountered in the world and in fiction (no education required) or something closer to friendship. When we say attraction in an adult context, there is a sexual or at least a romantic component, because that's what human 'attraction' is mostly. If what you're talking about is what I'm talking about (platonic attraction - ie. friendship), then it's probably unnecessary to teach kids about it - they already generally understand.
Granted it was a...very long time ago (I'm an old man), but I had plenty of female friends right up until I hit the 'girls are icky' phase and there was no attraction whatsoever. Entirely platonic - literally just friends. And. again, I don't think we need to teach kids that it's okay to be friends.
But let's drill down here. Be as specific as you can.
How would you go about teaching this stuff to a class of 5 year olds?
Yeah probably for the best. I'm happy to have this discussion, but it's not one that I can really do justice while I'm cautiously trying to avoid getting into areas that are too sensitive. And yes, it does boil down to semantics at the end of the day - but sometimes, language is important.
I'll agree to disagree on this one and yeah, leave it there.
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If I'd wanted to tell my kids about this stuff at 5...I'd want to be the one doing it.
See, that's where the issue lies. While you personally wouldn't mind telling your kids about LGBT in a bright matter, many parents either never teach their kids or, like my mom, teach me to hate LGBT. I grew believing I should hate myself for liking boys and girls.
Also, what I mean by that dimmed attraction, is that if I saw hot women or men I'd stare at that and be curious what's under the clothes. It isn't the way it is after puberty, it's just that it seems interesting, something fun to see. That's why I called it dimmed. It's barely there and far from the authentic thing.
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It always astounds me when people fail to put logical patterns together.
If teaching D.A.R.E. (Drug Abuse Resistance Education) lead to more kids trying out drugs, why would it then not be your logical conclusion to think that teaching about Sex would then lead to more students having sex?
Young people are extremely curious in nature. The mind is extremely complex and children at the age of 5 obviously don't have the same understanding of love, liking, etc. Their mental capabilities don't support understanding the nuances of love. How do you explain what love is to a 5 yr old? "It's someone you really really like" then what does a kid think "I really really like my best friend" "Maybe I'm gay." Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. The problem is that children don't have the ability to express themselves in that manner on average. "BUT I WAS A KID AND I KNEW!!!!!!" You're not every kid. We don't make rules for special cases. We make rules for the majority for the average, boring, dumb person who messes things up for everyone. I know many many boys and girls who "really really liked" their best friend then they found someone of the opposite sex they liked even more.
It's true that parent's screw their kids up more often than not but it's not something you can fix. The belief that a parent knows best is logically a dumb argument. Why would a person with no training in a given subject know what's best for someone, they can't. The same argument is true for teachers. A teacher doesn't have sufficient training either, no one does that's the point. A teacher arguably sees that individual for a total less amount of time, than the parents do and therefore cannot know the kid better. The idea that we live in an idealized society where no one is infallible is crazy. We live in a greedy world, it will never be perfect, and our rules as a society have to account for the imperfections of people. How many teachers flat out hated you as a student? I know many of mine did, and for what reason I was never privy too. When I look back and ask myself do I really want that mean ole b teaching me about the intricacies of love? HELL NO. Conversely I had some amazing teachers who probably could have done a better job than my own parents. How do you find those teachers, how do you sift through them, how do you weed out the bad ones. This problem becomes more and more complex as we add in the variables. The more variables we add in the harder it is to actually make sure the problem is solved correctly.
Some kids will already likely be mentally messed up because of their parents. That is a given and a usually unchangeable metric. Because of this bill some kids could be mentally messed up because of their teachers. Are you okay with that possibility? How many kids messed up is too much? One? Two? etc. All of this needs to be taken into account.
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I don't care too much about BHVR lore. I pick and choose what I like, then create my own for any game I play.
Same thing goes with Jane. If they ever decide to make her gay... what does it matter to me? She's all hetero in my world. Maybe a little bi curious, but she can take it or leave it. This is all fantasy as far as I'm concerned. Nothing is real.
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Not supporting the LGBT doesn't make you homophobic.
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