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How to ACTUALLY (partially) solve camping and tunneling.
First of all: I completely agree with people when they say that tunneling and camping are not fun playstyles to deal with, however, most people lose me when they say that these playstyles should be removed.
I think the solution to this problem is pushing players into the "fun zone". Now you're probably wondering what is the fun zone? This game design philosophy is a way of creating a game that encourages the most engagement, problem solving, and grants the player of large sense of control. The way this is achieved is not through punishment, but through positive reinforcement. This brings us to pretty much the only example of this philosophy: Doom Eternal.
Doom Eternal is the perfect representation for this philosophy, the game never forces you to play a certain way, however as you progress through the game, you learn to engage more with the mechanics of the game. It works more like a combat puzzle than a run and gun shooter, while in combat you have to figure out which enemy is the biggest threat and deal with it swiftly, the game encourages this by giving every enemy in the game a weakness that you can exploit.
This could be applied to DBD as well, so for example: instead of punishing the killer with DS or BT, why not give a basekit pop every time you hook a player for the first time? Instead of punishing the killer with decreased blood points, why not make the bp bonus for BBQ and Chili basekit? Instead of disabling power around the hook, why not give killers moving away from the hook the haste effect? Of course, some killers are gonna tunnel and camp in this system, but they'll lose out on these benefits and have to learn how to play the game optimally (or quit). Add these features to the game and it becomes much more pathological, should you force the survivor out the game? Or should you go after another survivor for a free pop to slow down the gens? Should you camp the hook, or use the haste when fleeing a hook to quickly get to a gen to pop it.
Right now, tunneling and camping is the only solution for most killers in the game, this is a big problem for both sides, so instead of punishing one side or the other, why not force people out of their comfort zones, and into the fun zone?
Comments
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"Lets leave the issue of camping and tunnelling unchanged while we just give more free candy for killers, this way we get absolutely nothing fixed but hey... I main killer so I'd like the extra buff"
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Hey Grumpy, how about instead of giving a snarky remark you give your own reasoning as to why you dont agree?
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That hardly changes much
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Most people who camp and tunnel to begin with are permanently butthurt and enjoy the reactions they get for playing that way. They feel as if they actually had some skill for increasing the kill count. No amount of rewards will change those people's playstyle. Only way to prevent camping and tunnelling is to severely punish it. Make the Steve hook perk basekit as long as the killer stays within X meters of the hook, make kindred basekit, and of course make BT basekit as well.
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Boost base chance to get yourself off hooks.
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Thats more like it
While I do agree some people just do it to get a reaction out of people and giving a reward for a hook is just not enough, I do think something should be put in place for killers as well to incentivize actually going for chases and defending gens.
Survivors should have some sort of defense for this as well, how ever I dont think just implementing a perk as base kit is the way to go, so I propose 2 things, 1 for each side:
For Survivors, I propose an idea of adding a new status effect called "Mystical". It only activates for 20 seconds when the killer is within 24m of your hook when youre saved. When you have the status effect, jump into a locker to teleport to the furthest possible locker, doing so how ever will give the Survivor Incapacitated, Broken and Blindness for 45 seconds. This is a tool purely to stop camping and tunneling, not something a Survivor can use to get rid of pressure when they dont deserve it
As for killers, maybe if a Survivor has been unhooked twice while theyre X amount of meters away, instead of needing to hook them a third time, they get a mori. Its nothing huge but it can definitely save you time
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I agree with the idea of incentivizing killers to play better and not resort to tunneling/camping, but giving all killers buffs and making perks basekit isn't the answer. That just creates new problems while not solving the initial problem.
Giving survivors perks as basekit isn't the answer either. If all survivors had BT as basekit, killers would camp hooks even more than they already do. If all survivors had decisive strike as basekit, killers would slug at 5 gens all the time. Hell, the mere existence of boon perks already encourages killers to tunnel, since the survivor who set up a boon can keep setting up the same boon over and over again without any drawbacks until they're dead.
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If you actually read what I said then you would probably put down your pitchfork and actually argue against what I'm saying, I'm not saying buff killer, I'm saying reward killers for playing in a fair and fun way for both sides.
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As nice as it would be to get rewarded for, well, playing nice, no amount of incentive in the world is going to stop people from tunnelling someone out of the game and/or camping them to death
Unless you by some unholy miracle mange to permanently delete the concept of tunnelling and camping from everyone's memories, it will continue to happen, nothing will change that
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Then just nerf Nurse and Blight to compensate, I hate this attitude people have when it comes to making perks basekit, the biggest problem I have with the game is having to buy new chapters just to get mediocre perks that will become obsolete in a few years. Tunneling and camping are very powerful playstyles, but if there was another way to play that was equally as powerful, then you would see a large reduction in those behaviors.
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I mean, I'm trying to argue here, but you seem either new or very oblivious to how people in this game work. The killer would just guess where the survivor is going to be teleported to, and knowing he's incapacitated and broken, he will continue tunnelling. You just have to look at Pyramid head players. They will literally cage someone and go to the other side of the map to continue tunnelling that one player. You either don't play enough solo queue (don't do it anyway, it's not worth it) or main killer.
Most people who sweat for 4ks literally care for nothing else but increasing kill count and ruining other people's matches is their only goal.
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Imagine I told you: "Hey, I know how to fix the issue of killers going against sweaty SWF squads!!!!!.... give 5.000 bloodpoints to killers for playing against them!!!! That would encourage them!!!!"
You'd just be like, "Really?" Not even worth replying to, right?
Well, that's pretty much what you did there.
People.Who.Play.Like.That.Don't.Care.About.Positive.Reinforcement.
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I play like that, I would like the option to not play like that. I changed the title because I think it was misleading, but you're completely straw manning my argument, I'm saying that people who play fair should be rewarded with a better outcome than those who camp.
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As I stated before. What you suggest is simply a killer buff for people who don't camp. What would be the effect on the camping and tunnelling issue? zero.
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Yes, it would! I camp and tunnel, but if the better way to play would be to not tunnel and camp, then I would absolutely change the way I play. Imagine if I was proposing changes that would make bullying killers harder, that would reduce the amount of bullying that killers would experience, but by this logic it would not be effective at all.
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Well, if any positive reinforcement can achieve that (I don't think so) this certainly isn't it. This would have no impact.
You believe people would "change their ways" because of a hook haste and free pop. What would actually happen is: "Ok, now I have free perks included, and I have more room for perks to continue sweating, camping and tunnelling even harder, now it's even easier to win doing what I always do"
This is like me saying, ok if you allow survivors to move 10% faster and repair 20% faster, they will feel more relaxed... And they will stop bullying noob killers! It will be glorious... everyone will be happy!!!!
Please. Let's stop kidding ourselves.
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Nerfing one or two top tier killers would not balance that out at all?
I understand the frustrations of having to pay money or wait months to spend iri shards just to get one or two perks that might not even be as good as they're cracked up to be, but making perks basekit throws the game balance off, requires those perks to be reworked, requires perks with synergy to be reworked/nerfed as well, etc. and the balance between the game being survivor or killer sided is already flimsy at the best of times.
The biggest problem with perks becoming basekit is an obvious one but it's one people don't often consider: you still have four perk slots, and now you can free up those perk slots for even more ridiculously meta perks, or run a bunch of perks to immensely buff and abuse your newly buffed basekit.
I'm not against the idea of some perks being carefully reworked into basekit with consideration to game balance and fairness for both sides, but that takes a lot of time and effort on behalf of the devs and something like that won't just happen overnight. And none of us are going to be able to accurately predict how these changes affect game balance without extensive testing in or even after a PTB.
Saying "just make pop/BT basekit lol" does not factor in any of this and could easily break the game for one side or the other if not implemented carefully. And above all else, neither would fix the issues with tunneling and camping that they're supposed to in the first place.
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There could be other buffs, I was just spit balling those ideas. We can at least agree that a change more intelligently designed could make some change though, right?
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Now we're getting to the same point that I always get to when debating things about DBD, I honestly just don't care about balance, it's clear Behavior have absolutely no clue what they're doing, if you disregard all other changes and just made the bp gains for BBQ basekit, I'd be ok.
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You have to approach things directly. If you wanna punish camping and tunnelling, you have to directly make it unrewarding to do so. This could be done in endless ways.
We didn't want survivors vaulting the same window 30 times in a row. They made it so it would block after 3 vaults. They didn't go like "Oh, beautiful survivors, I'm gonna give you these bunch of free buffs, so you dont even have to keep abusing those windows!!! Because now having that possibility PLUS the buffs I'm gonna give you, you wouldn't dare just take both and abuse both anyway right?!?!
If you want to punish a behaviour (pun intended) you tackle it directly, especially in this game, where people's number 1 priority is ruining everyone else's games and being the pettiest possible.
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Ok, the problem with what you're saying here is that camping ranges from necessary on some killers, to just op and unnecessary, lumping all killers into the same group like survivors is foolish.
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That I would not argue with at all. Giving bonus bp for playing well sounds like it should be a given, and being rewarded for hooking multiple survivors in basekit may not fix the issue but could convince some people to tunnel/camp less.
Same could be said for the bp bonus given by We're Gonna Live Forever for survivors. Maybe less of your solo queue teammates will stop unhooking you in front of the killer without BT, or leaving you to die off of one hook even when the killer isn't facecamping. Hell, it could make solo queue an actually bearable, perhaps even enjoyable experience.
...Nah, like that would ever happen.
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Finally, I think this is the first time I've ever been able to come to a compromise with someone on these forums, I think I should just go outside instead of spending my time bickering with other people here.
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I think the biggest problem with tunneling and camping is the fact that the game is unbalanced, rewarding good behaviour won't help it, and considering that BHVR is thinking about changing the grind, the mix of these two problems won't be a nice solution to the game.
Think about it, if you go to a map like Gideon as a M1 killer against a average team you will hardly get a good game, if you put perks in this mix you will have 4 players that can run all gens and leave quite easily. Get a M1, survivor goes to a loop, drop pallets, hide with Iron Will, Dead Hards, dissapears etc etc, CoH appears and he heals up, now all you progress is lost.
The thing is, if we considering not to change maps, perhaps the best solution would be to work with perks like Enduring and Brutal Strength, not saying that all killers should have a enduring base kit but perhaps a 0.3 sec less stun? a 0.3 less time to break a pallet, that would be a minor change that could make the game more fluid to killers, if a person it's feeling good, he's downing people, getting hooks and gens are popping slower that would make him fell more powerful, i think the tunneling question is a problem of power also, if a killer is confident that he can go around loops and down survivors he will do it.
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Hey man, if you don't care about game balance, that's fair enough, I'll gladly discuss it with people who do instead. But we can all agree on good play being rewarded. And more BP, because holy damn, you never don't need BP.
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True that, I think I'll just stick to s##t posting for now.
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I think brutal strength already only shaves about 0.4 seconds off or something like that, but seeing as it's been nerfed in the past, maybe brutal strength as basekit could be too strong, who knows? Would require a lot of testing.
Also, somewhat off-topic here, but I see plenty of people say that Gideon is a rough map for a lot of killers or that it's very survivor sided but I just don't see it. The pallets are very safe, sure, but it's easy to corale survivors into corners of the map and deadzones and leave them trapped and ensure a hit/down, and patrolling gens is deceptively easy once you're used to the layout. idk, I've always thought of it as one of the better maps for killer, though I'm sure some killers like Billy or Huntress struggle there.
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Depends on the killer, I always smile to myself when I'm playing Nemesis on there, but when I'm playing Billy/Bubba there it's pure pain.
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Pyramid Head can be very opressive on Gideon. Hitting people through walls, making every safe pallet unsafe, placing trails in hallways so survivors have no choice but to get tormented, etc.
It's even one of the better maps for Sadako, despite the pallets. Easy to sneak up on people and catch them off guard, projecting a lot can inflict condemned on multiple survivors over time...
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So then what do you propose for anti tunneling? Since using your logic not even BT basekit would solve the issue
Also if the Survivor is teleported to the otherside of the map and the killer still insists on finding them, they are wasting A LOT of time.
Also, Im far from a new player and play about 50/50. I used to be a solo Survivor main back when I first started back in 2017 but got tired of that.
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BHVR tells them they have skill. If you get 8 hooks and no kills was it really a skilled play?
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You have to prevent tunneling, camping and slugging as much as possible. It doesnt change anything if you just give killers even more credit while letting those issues unchanged.
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I like the idea of the haste and free pop effect however, due to the haste, it should not last as long as pop so you have to quickly go to a gen to use it.
To lessen the abuse of the haste effect, it should only kick in once you are so many metres away from the hook and last only for maybe 10 seconds, returning to the proximity of the hook or when getting into a chase. It then ends.
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I was thinking that for haste you only gain it when moving away from the hook.
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I was thinking to avoid abusing it near the hook, and to promote moving away, you would have to be about 16 metres away before it procs. To avoid abusing it in chase, it ends when the chase starts.
Proxy camping would still be a thing but that's why I added the timer for it ending.
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