Does Behavior regret making survivors the power role?
Comments
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I understand what you are saying, however, survivors being able to stomp weaker killers does not make them the power role. The power role is essentialy the player that dictates the flow and rules of the game, not the player that has the most tools to win.
If the killer finds you, you have to move or run, otherwise he will get you and potentially remove you from the game.
If the killer is plague, or nemesis or legion or any other, you have to adjust your gameplay, you can't just act like the killer is wraith, or, again you might just be removed from the game.
The survivors can't really stop the killer, they just escape. You can't stop the killer from kicking a Gen, downing you, besides evasion, you can't really force him to do anything or even remove him from the game.
I understand that at higher levels of gameplay the survivors have enough resources to evade and escape from the majority of killers, except the elite ones and this leads to frustration and feelings of powerlessness, but this does not make them the power role, by definition, it just means the game is unbalanced.
This is actually the reason why I dislike playing survivor and main killer almost exclusively. I'm a mediocre player, so as survivor I often find myself unable to do, well, anything, with no power to prevent this other than hoping to remain hidden, that the killer is merciful or just less skilled than myself. No fun.
As killer, I can have fun and no one can stop me from playing the game or chasing whoever I want even if don't catch them. I might lose a game, but I'm still the power role and this I like.
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What does Nurse have to do with it? Nurse can sustain her blinks. Huntress has multiple hatchets. Dodging one isn't a big deal.
Pinhead missing a chain sets him back miles. It's way worse as Demo, due to the huge recovery incurred when you miss a Shred and hit an object.
You're comparing apples to orangutans.
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"Slinger had no downsides to his gun"
Boy, talk about a "tell me you never played a character without saying you never played that character" line.
Deathslinger has
- a tremendous restriction on moving left or right, making survivor juking incredibly easy
- a long reload every time he misses, giving survivors ample opportunity to get to the next pallet or even just get away
- a surprisingly short reach that can be outdistanced by simply running away
- a slow movement speed, making it take that much longer for him to close the gap and get into power range
- a power that reels the survivor in but is not automatic and can be broken by the survivor using the terrain to their advantage
- an extremely narrow hitbox on his power, as opposed to the very large hitboxes of other ranged killers, requiring precision
- no secondary power or effects to help him slow the game or catch survivors without the use of his one-shot gun.
There are SO MANY downsides to his power. And people trying to excuse his complete gutting by claiming it was a no-skill, auto-win proposition are just broadcasting, for all to see, how little they've actually tried playing the other side.
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Fun fact. Pyramid head was bugged on release, and the ability to plant the sword and instantly m1 out of it was a bug. Tell me you don't play killer without telling me.
He always had a cooldown. The incessant whining and rage quits from survivors made bhvr increase it and then they figured out it was a bug but never changed it back because the bug was still there after the nerf for a day or two.
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Survivors are still the power role, they dictate the flow of The Trial and how long it lasts, and how it ends.
If good Survivors want to escape and you're not playing Nurse or Blight, they escape and you can't do anything about it
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Sigh.
No, I'm saying that it's a bigger deal that Demo and Ceno telegraph their abilities, because the penalty for them whiffing is way more severe than Nurse or Huntress.
Yes, you can mindgame and zone with Shred, but like all mindgames, it's never going to be consistent, because if they call your bluff you've lost a lot of distance. Demo isn't prenerf Slinger.
Even great Twins players (Otz immediately comes to mind) whiff with Victor a fair bit. But him getting kicked isn't a massive deal, because A. their power allows them to slug into crazy snowballs, which Ceno and Demo can't do as easily and B. it's way harder to dodge a pounce than it is to dodge a chain.
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And that‘s the number advantage. That‘s perfectly fine. If the survivors use their number advantage well, Splitpunkt and singend they should have a decent chance of winning.
if a good killer wants a 4K they‘re gonna get it if the survivors don‘t play efficiently.
Why shouldn‘t good survivors be able to win?
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I never said Survivors 4v1'ing the Killer was bad, I said the Survivors are the power role.
The problem is that Survivors can also 1v1 most Killers, (thanks Dead Hard and bad Maps) which is what makes them overpowered
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I think you're missing my point.
Yes, killers with anti-loop are generally better than killers without.
There's still a world of difference power wise between a Nurse or a Huntress and a Cenobite.
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But they are not and they can‘t 1v1 most killers. Plenty of killers have tools to deal with loops, very few maps are actually that bad plus a single survivor can‘t do gens and evade the killer at the same time.
In a 1v1 scenario the killer most of the time has all the power.
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um that’s not true. I played during pyramid heads time and the M2 to M1 was never reported to be a bug. There was not one dev post and not one comment from a mod saying it was a bug. I’ve played pyramid head since he came out and he never had a cooldown.
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Nope nope. I am literally a deathslinger main and yes those are problems and downsides but BUT! You will never run into those issues if your a good slinger only bad players will experience those issues. God slinger players will never experience any of those issues except for the reload. Those weaknesses are only bad if you suck. If you don’t then you will never run into any of those issues
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Nah, not really.
Most Killers are extremely easy to loop, only some of them I'd say are difficult, like any Killer that is A tier or above are difficult to loop and every Killer under that depends on the Map.
There are plenty of Survivor-sided Maps, like every MacMillan Estate Map that isn't Shelter Woods, some Autohaven Wreckers, Eyrie Of Crows, Ormond, The Game, RPD, Lampkin Lane and Red Forest, and even some entire realms that are Survivor-sided, like Springwood, Coldwind Farm, Crotus Prenn Asylum, Backwater Swamp
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Na mate, your way exaggerating how survivor sided these maps are.
and most killers are only easy to loop if the killer isn‘t that good. Very few of them don’t have tools to deal with loops.
and again, a single survivor can‘t loop and do gens. In a 1v1 the killer has all the power.
If the survivors use their numbers advantage well and play decently they can make good killers sweat. That’s how it should be and it doesn‘t make survivors the power role.
is everything well balanced? No but survivors are not the power role
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I don't think you understand me. I'm taking about a 1v1, a chase, not a literal 1v1 with no one else doing Generators.
No, most Killers are just straight up bad, just because they have ways to counter looping, doesn't mean those ways are of any use.
Trapper can place Traps, ok? They get disarmed and he's an M1 Killer.
Hillbilly, just use Windows.
Bubba, just use Windows.
Wraith, simple M1 Killer.
Myers, simple M1 Killer.
Doctor, simple M1 Killer, dodge his shocks from time to time.
Freddy, simple M1 Killer.
Pig, simple M1 Killer.
Clown, pre-drop Pallets.
Legion, simple M1 Killer.
Ghostface, simple M1 Killer.
Deathslinger, break LOS, ShiftW.
Trickster, break LOS, ShiftW.
Nemesis, break LOS, ShiftW.
Cenobite, simple M1 Killer, break chains with walls.
Onryō, simple M1 Killer
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That's smart. Let's consider broad statistics at face value, and ignore;
- The game has a great learning curve. New Killers stomp new survivors. A lot of new Killers are always playing with New survivors, while average and experienced Killers are leaving the game because they get tired of average and experienced survivors.
- Also average and experienced Killers are purposely lowering their MMR for easier matches against below average and new survivors, making the game painful for solo que, and new players.
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No, you don’t understand. You can‘t just ignore half the game because you feel like it.
In a true 1v1 the killer has all the power, therefore they are the power role.
Most killers aren‘t as bad as you make them out to be, the problem seems to be being able to use them well. A killer is only as the player. If they suck then the survivors should have a good chance at winning.
Good killers aren‘t nearly as easy to beat as you make it out to be.
A lot of Killers are quite powerful if used effectively. They are the power role.
If survivors use their number advantage well they win. That‘s how it should be. The problem is the 1v4 here.
But for the sake of argument let‘s say I don‘t understand. That would be because you never explained yourself properly. What should be the base powerlifting then?
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A lot of Killers are quite powerful if used effectively.
I love this, because it's so wrong.
The skill-ceiling isn't infinite with most Killers, about 81% of the Killer roster has a maximum skill-ceiling, and just being good won't get you any wins.
What you want to talk about is game knowledge, which doesn't have a ceiling, but it also won't help you with most of the Killers, because as I said previously, they're bad.
You need both to win, which even then you're not guaranteed to win, because Survivors, thanks to DH and the majority of Maps being Survivor-sided, always lead the chase, and have a bigger change to win than the Killer, unless they're playing Nurse and Blight, in which case the Killer takes control of the chase
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You‘re wrong. A lot of killers are powerful of used effectively.
Of course you also need game knowledge. You act like it’s impossible for killers to use their powers to down survivors if they know the game. That‘s just wrong. You mentioned holding W and windows before. However, holding W doesn’t work forever, no survivor can outrun a killer, they will always catch up and get a hit and a down. Because they are more powerful. Survivors don’t have a window readily available at all times, the game would be one map with very little vaults to begin with. Chainsaws also provide speed boosts, good Billy’s can still curve and a lot of windows can be mindgamed.
It just seems like you‘re putting all the blame for losing on the game. Yes it‘s not perfectly balanced but I doubt you play perfectly most of the time and just get cucked by not being the power role
That‘s just nonsense. The killer has way more power than any single survivor ever can achieve. The number advantage may be too big if the survivors play well.
However you act like survivors should never ever have a chance in a chase. That‘s just stupid.
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Do these threads ever generate constructive feedback or are they just used as echo chambers to complain?
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There appears to be some kind of communication barrier between us, so we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't know how can I explain what a power role means any clearer.
May you have a nice day ☺️
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"No different than hatchets"
Yeah let me just shred through this window, over this pallet, over this car, over this fence, or through this small gap in the wall/vehicle to the other side of the loop.
Also I guess huntress stuns herself when her hatchets miss.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
Feel free to sort through Otzdarvas vods to find him saying the bug is still there the day they nerfed pyramidhead. He even shows it on stream.
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Survivors aren't the power role. Killers just want super easy games.
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and for this reasons they are working on bots... this game is doomed, it's the lair for toxic people and trolls (think how many people don't even want to have a civil debate and want just flame others or the amount of people who dc in the game for extremely petty reasons). obviously the devs are the ones to blame cause they left those behaviors unpunished (a lot of reports with screenshots as proofs are still unanswered)
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Per your definition, survivors are the power role. Because they dictate the flow of the match.
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There are supposed to be 4 survivors for every killer. It would be very odd if killer was the power role as you would have too many killer players and not enough survivors. So, yes, I assume they are quite happy with the balance they achieved. They have done it better than literally every other asymmetrical game which is why the game is still extremely popular and didn't die in like a month.
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Lol did you just say nurse is fun and engaging? Also ######### counter play is their to a good nurse? Dont even say use counter play that works against noob nurses
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Get ready for an obvious list of 10 hours gameplay "counters"
The usual no brain list: Break LoS, be unpredictable...
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Right, you're just supposed to get hit and die no matter what you do. What a great design
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There is always counterplay, there's not a single Killer base-kit that's uncounterable
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If I had to have my word with why survivors are stronger
It would be this comment:
I've played survivor soloq so it's pretty easy to see that ^
And also, think of it this way, the 4 survivors are stronger, which for some people literally mean fun,
if out of 5 people 4 are in an advantage, that's 80% of people having a good time,
but killers if they're good and survivors aren't godlike SWF can also have a good time,
and something along those lines....
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On-release pyramid head would like to have a word with you
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Old Anti-Hemorrhagic Syringes would like to have a word with you, old Brand New Parts would like to have a word with you, old Keys would like to have a word with you, old Moris would like to have a word with you, we can go on and on about the unbalanced stuff from the past, but it doesn't matter as we're not in the past anymore
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That's exactly the point I was making. You said that there is always counterplay, well yeah no shot it does now that it has been changed
Which means, no, things don't always have counterplay at first, and they NEED to be changed. Which is why suff like what you mentioned, along with PH, Deathslinger and others were changed.
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No they don't. I know it may feel that way when you are just tired, or annoyed of the feel of powerlessness of playing killer in an unbalanced game. Again, the capability to win, per completing your objectives, does not make you the power role, but I think I'm just wasting words here. It would appear this thread has become nothing more of an echo chamber without the will to actually give thought to arguments, so, no matter, everyone is free to believe as they will.
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Ok i´ll rephrase. Survivors objective is far easier to achieve than the killers one. There are 4 survivors and 5 gens. A single survivor requires 80 seconds to repair a gen. 44 seconds if 2 survivors work on it. Survivors start the trial usually next to gens, while the killer starts at the other end of the map. A killer can only chase a single survivor. Means the other 3 survivors are free to do what they want. If they concentrate on gens, then they´ll complete 3 gens by the time the killer gets his first hook. This doesn´t mean, that the killer had a 80 second chase. Since survivors have at least a 30 second head start, before the killer can reach them. Picking up a survivor and hooking him also takes around 5 seconds IF the survivor was downed right under a hook. If the killer has to carry the survivor, he loses another 10-15 seconds. This sums up to roughly 50 seconds that the killer requires to get his first hook. Not including the time to actually down the survivor.
Now some people will argue, that the first gens dont matter. But in fact, the first gens matter a lot, since survivors can complete the last gens in coop, which drastically reduces the repair time. All gens can be effectively completed in less than 3 minutes (much less, if the survivors use perks and toolboxes).
Its no secret that killers stack gen slowdown perks. They don´t do this, because they are so superior to other perks. They do this, because gens fly so fast.
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^This.
This is just a giant echo chamber of killer-mains telling other killer-mains how much a victim they are. It's a giant confirmation bias pit.
Killer-mains, the developers stats show a greater than 50% kill rate and that's the only stats we have. There are absolutely no stats showing anything else. End of this discussion.
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Kinda a misconception by the community. Survivors are not the powerrole.
They are the stronger side but they are still the numbers role.
1v1 no survivor can beat a killer of equal skill level. They still need teammembers to progress their objective.
The term power role does not mean what most of the community think it means
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Same :(
I would have liked them to at least keep stage 2 running. I cant go back to launch evolve.
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Yes, I know this, I main killer almost exclusively and while I don't have a clue about my mmr, I have had my fair share of supremely skilled 4man swf against whom I have no chance to do anything, but this is not representative of the "power role"
You took the time to write an answer, so I will try to explain myself too.
To understand what I mean about setting rules and guiding the flow as killer power role we need to see this from a "5 person of similar skill" perspective, when a massive gap between skill exists its pointless to analyze, this is inherent to any competitive game, so in this scenario, the survivors may indeed be able to progress their objective faster than a weaker killer can, but ultimately the killer can still exert its will. Even if we get 3 escapes, if the killer wants one player out of the match, there is nothing the others can do to stop it (again, similar skill). If the killer wants to facecamp in the basement, there is no stopping it. You can't force anything on the killer. I mean, hell if the killer wants to camp the basement white glyph, or a saw box, or doesn't want to play, you can't move him.
This is what the power role means, and what guiding the games means. Not winning, not having the better chances to win.
Is like in resident evil 3. Nemesis had the power role even though he is ultimately killed.
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On equal skill level. Survivors will always win. Thats, despite tournaments being heavily regulated, the killers there have to resort to tunnel a survivor out asap or it will mostly be a 3 man escape.
There is simply not enough time to get 12 hooks. Said time frame is set up by survivors. A killer can have a great start and get 3 hooks before the first gen gets completed. Yet he might end the match with a meager kill and 3 escapes.
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Survivors should be the power role it is the 4 versus the one anyway
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Yes. I have pointed this out before as an example of the imbalance of the game, that on equal skill the survivors hold the advantage and often ends with a 4 or 3 escape depending on killer choices.
However, I know I'm just repeating myself, but having an advantage to fulfill a game's victory conditions DOES NOT DEFINE what a power role is. I'm, sorry this is semantics, I know, but I think it's important people realize there is a difference.
Anyway, thank you for your patience and willingness to argument in a civil manner, you are a gentleman or gentlewoman.
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So what makes you definition correct and everyone else's not?
Isn't it more likely you're the one with the skewed perception of what a power role is if most people are disagreeing?
I would say survivors dictate the flow of the match, such as how fast it goes, how well the killer does, where the killer is ect. The killer has to follow the survivors around and (in most cases) wait for them to mess up. Survivors determine when someone gets saved. They determine when the EGC starts (usually), they determine what pallets get dropped when, they determine what gens get done in what order, they determine the general area where they go down, and they determine where chases take place and where they go.
That sounds like the power role to me. They dictate the majority of the match.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
I mean, sure, perhaps. Ultimately you have your opinion and I have mine.
Perhaps you are correct and I'm not.
At this point I find it unproductive to further this topic, since we seem to have reached an impasse.
In the end I will continue to play killer and enjoying what I perceive as a power role and will continue to be "dungeon master" for those who play on my lobbies.
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I'm on PS4 so I didn't even get stage 2.
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Ok i guess we´ll agree to disagree on whats the powerrole.
Nice discussion.
Off Topic: i really don´t understand why some people seem to hold a grudge on other players, simply because they have different opinions. With statements like "i don´t want to discuss with you, because you´re a XXX main".
We´re humans, having different opinions makes everything interesting.
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That's something we can definitely both agree on. I have truly never seen a gaming community with such antagonistic behavior.
As killer main I understand that survivors are important for my entertainment and enjoyment and I try to hold my part of the bargain.
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Survivor will always be the power role, because they bring in the dollar.
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