Sadako Needs Buffs
But what can we do to fix her weaknesses?
- TV cooldowns are too long. 60 s after Sadako uses a TV / 30 s after a survivor turns off a TV seems reasonable to me. Adding a few more TVs per map would be incredible and not crazy, when compared to how many lockers the Dredge gets to use. The balancing act is making interacting with TVs rewarding enough (encouraging survivors b/c they can take away Sadako's power) but also dangerous enough (because having condemnation stacks is risky). Right now there is a huge reward for very little risk.
- Demanifesting is Sadako's only reliable chase power, as it can be difficult to teleport mid-chase, assuming her nearby TVs are available. With buffed Condemnation she can remain a standard M1 Killer with a side objective as built in slow-down. But if possible, a nice change would be that she is not stunned by pallets while demanifested. To keep her stealth power unique, instead of a speed boost after manifesting perhaps killer instinct within X m could be a reasonable way to improve her chase potential. More TVs in general, with more uptime, would make her teleportation easier to use mid-chase.
- Condemnation needs to be a relevant secondary objective that survivors cannot just ignore all game. When compared to Pig's Reverse Beartrap boxes, Pinhead's Chainhunt, and soon the Dredge's Nightfall, Condemnation does next to nothing to prevent survivors from sitting on generators. Nightfall is not exactly a secondary objective but a significant time period where the Dredge's powers are buffed and survivors have limited visibility.
A. Passive Condemnation builds within X m range of any TV. Even if survivors ignore TVs, passive Condemnation build up will ensure that at least 1-2 time(s) during a match they will have to remove a tape and insert it in another TV across the map.
B. Ring Drawing add-on could be base kit. Spreading Condemnation stacks through healing helps build pressure on survivors to interact with TVs instead of their primary objective of generators. An alternate change would be that getting rid of your 3 stacks of Condemnation actually spreads those stacks to other survivors. As suggested by Dowsey, this seems thematically appropriate as showing others the cursed tape was the only way to save yourself.
C. The UI could show the level of Condemnation stacks better for Sadako, as it is information that could influence who she targets next. In addition to this quality of life change, Sadako could gain buffs / survivors be debuffed at certain levels of Condemnation. That way, Sadako can benefit from Condemnation before her mini Mori. Examples could include: 1. Survivors work on generators X% slower with each stack. 2. Survivors become hindered upon reaching X stacks. 3. Sadako can Manifest / Demanifest X% faster after X total stacks on all survivors. 4. Upon reaching 7 stacks, a survivor becomes exposed. These are just examples.
It feels like the Dredge is Sadako but better. While I don't believe she's terrible, the direct comparison definitely underlines her many weaknesses. She doesn't need a complete rework IMO (like being able to walk through pallets while demanifested) but right now survivors can hold a lot of her power hostage at almost no risk.
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Remove TV's cooldowns , when sadako use teleport.
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Where they said that?
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"In the next mid chapter patch"
Mid chapter patches are pretty much always for balancing and they were much more focused on Legion and Ghost Face who's buffs were needed MUCH more.
She'll more than likely get changes within the coming months, al though they do have a lot on their plate right now if were going off the Anniversary stream.
Its not like shes in desperate need anyway so thats fine by me
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Check dates mate, this was for last mid-chapter. We don't know about next mid-chapter yet.
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You've completely misunderstood this. All Mandy said is that Sadako wouldn't receive kneejerk changes the mid-chapter after her release.
That has literally been their practice for I believe the last two years or so. No killer will receive major changes just 6 weeks after their release. The devs generally gather data for a few months after a killer's release, before they decide on making any major changes, if at all. You can see this practice in effect since at least Trickster, maybe even earlier, I'm not quite sure when they started this.
- Trickster released with 4.6, received changes in 5.1 (3 major patches later)
- Nemesis released with 5.0, received changes in 5.2 (2 major patches later)
- Cenobite released with 5.2, received changes in 5.4 (2 major patches later)
The Artist hasn't received changes yet, but that could be because the devs don't deem any necessary or the Ghost Face / Legion reworks took priority. Going by this, and seen as Sadako hasn't gotten anything for 6.0, the soonest she can receive any changes is in 6.1
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I'm guessing the thought with Condemnation was that survivors would interact with tvs more to prevent her from teleporting. The issue is that there's zero reason to do that because she's a complete non-threat in chase.
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Absolutely true. Survivors can easily turn off all TVs with basically no risk. Or they could ignore them all game and never really worry about Condemnation. Either way, Sadako is an M1 killer with nothing to make her a threat in chase. It'd be easy (conceptually, I think it'd be much harder from a technical / code writing standpoint) to just give her an anti-loop power. But I think it'd be more unique to double down on her existing mechanics, and they could give her buffs to help her in chase based on Condemnation stacks. Or giving her demanifestation state a real purpose besides a weak mind game tool would help her get downs faster.
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I'm still not hopeful.
They knew she was a in a rough state after the PTR - there was a ton of feedback. They gave her a tiny buff and released her.
Evidently, she wasn't a big priority, and I doubt that will change going forward.
If we're lucky, we'll see some changes to her...perhaps in 2023. And, looking at Pig, it could be as petty as 'hey, we moved some addons around and slightly buffed those three that you will still never use' or an actual, Twins style nerf - 'hey, we nerfed that one brown addon everyone uses (my bets on Newspaper) because it was used more than her other addons'.
How do I know?
Trickster and Wraith.
Both of these killers have very low kill rates compared to others, and that's taking into account how strong they are against newbies. And yet - Wraith got nerfed, Trickster languishes.
I'm hoping to be proven wrong, but not optimistic.
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She's a slightly better trapper with a mic of wraith and spirit...her tp is kinda useless because if gens are done in areas where TV's are then you won't use those TV's the rest of the match....that being said I love playing her and she's not weak but she's not strong either and she does need some help.
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I used to main Trapper before Sadako, and I definitely think she is better on average just because her pseudo-stealth and much better map presence. But although survivors can deny his power of the disarm his traps, it's not that rare you get a crazy snowball.
Also, Sadako seems a bit less map dependent. To the comment above about Wraith and Trickster, I think they are both in an okay place. Trickster can dominate short loops and while Wraith can be more of a baby killer he has some strong add-ons that I find annoying to go against.
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I completly agree with your ideas. Sadako shouldn't have such long teleport cooldowns and her condemned should build up like Pinhead's chainhunt.
I also have two more suggestions.
After being fully condemned you are exposed and you can't use tapes to get rid of it for 90sec.
As for some antiloop, i think she could have passive phasing like Spirit but on much bigger level. This way like GF she wouldn't have direct antiloop power but way more mindgame potential and better chance at hitting survivor.
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When devs will buff sadako ?
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After many more games of Sadako, and with the general Killer buffs (faster kicking, wipe animation, etc.) I'm not changing my original opinions, but I think she could also use an add-on pass.
60 seconds TV cooldown after teleports would feel great. Another add-on besides Cabin Sign or Iri Tape might be nice, but basekit (or not, it could be a new add-on) maybe every lost health state takes 10 seconds off the TV cooldowns (of all TVs that are off, or the last TV you teleported through). If that were the case 70 or even 80 seconds for the TV CD would be ok, rewarding hits.
Passive condemnation if you hold a tape is 25 seconds per stack. Meaning a survivor's choice is A) take the risk of getting 1 stack and being pushed off your generator, or B) immediately getting 1 stack but being safe, BUT every 25 seconds you gain another stack. In most situations I would not take the tape. I think this weighing of options could be more interesting if, like many have suggested, there was some kind of passive condemnation that wasn't tied to holding a tape. However, I realize that it would be very easy for this to cause too many stacks and too much free pressure. Ideally pressure should come from Killer skill cough Pinhead cough.
Let's say 45 seconds per passive stack would be fair. If you added passive condemnation you could decrease the rate you gain stacks while holding a tape to compensate. 2 stacks of passive condemnation for a full gen, risking interruption and another stack, or pulling a tape to deny the teleport and additional stack, but the survivor would get over 2 (3 at the current rate) stacks of passive condemnation if left alone, plus the original stack from the tape. Most would still lean towards the former option, but this would make interacting with TVs when gens are almost done much more appealing. Let's not forget if there are 2 or more people on a gen, there would be less passive condemnation per survivor, or 1 survivor could take the tape, making sure their teammate(s) will not gain any stacks.
But honestly, with Iri Tape and Ring Drawing (Almost all other add-ons are terrible by comparison), I find that I can get decent condemnation pressure and it's not that rare that a survivor reaches full condemnation. Considering a mini mori is tied to this mechanic, it needs to be balanced carefully, and passive condemnation could easily be too much. Lowering the TV CD will make a difference, but it's not enough. Adding additional TVs is still an attractive option, but I think the entire condemnation mechanic could be so much more intricate if it wasn't all or nothing. Give Sadako buffs when the survivors have a certain amount of total condemnation stacks. This would make the risk-reward calculation of when to interact with TVs much more interesting. Survivors would have more reasons to take tapes and risk passive condemnation gain in order to get rid of 3 stacks and remove a buff that Sadako would get.
Examples could include: 1. Survivors work on generators X% slower with each stack. 2. Survivors become hindered upon reaching X stacks. 3. Sadako can Manifest / Demanifest X% faster after X total stacks on all survivors. I think because you can mori at full condemnation, exposed tied to full condemnation would be too strong. But maybe an add-on could give exposed for 10-20 seconds after a TV is turned in.
Sadako needs better add-ons to support a more diverse set of playstyles. TV CD reduction is almost non-negotiable for me. And I'd love other baseline buffs. But if she has to be a standard M1 Killer with no nuanced change to how condemnation works, AT LEAST give her some good add-ons because she'll be dependent on them, just as Wraith and GF are. Wraith can move even faster when cloaked, his breaking animation is much faster, his uncloak bell can be silent, or he can have wallhacks depending on what add-ons he uses. Ghostface can gain 10% haste after marking, make a gen explode and block it, cause exhaustion, and can reveal auras with his add-ons. Sadako can... be a little bit sneakier, I guess. One Pump Willie made a great video going through her add-ons.
- Maybe Demanifested, Sadako can break pallets and gens faster?
- Maybe she can avoid pallet stuns (this could even be basekit, IMO).
- Maybe a Doctor like illusion could pop up if there's enough condemnation.
- Maybe the range around TVs where she inflicts a stack of condemnation could be bigger.
- Or it takes longer for survivors to interact with TVs.
- Or she could see auras for 5 seconds after a tape is taken.
- Or if not basekit, any of the examples above of nerfs to survivors with enough condemnation stacks.
- How about survivors with X stacks who are hooked are given a tape when unhooked if Sadako is more than 24m away?
- Or like in my original post - Dowsey's lore appropriate suggestion - getting rid of stacks instead spreads them to other survivors (revert it to where survivors remove 4 stacks, but each teammate gains a stack to prevent insurmountable pressure).
- Survivors that are hit 5 seconds after manifestation are inflicted with Exhaustion for 5 seconds, or are Oblivious for 10 seconds, or have their auras revealed for 2 seconds.
- If you hit a survivor with a tape within 12m of their target TV, the target switches so they have to take their tape to another TV.
- As mentioned above, if not basekit, every hit removes 10 seconds off TV CDs.
There are so many cool ideas that would make her more than a basic M1 Killer with a teleport that has a super long CD (unless you hit a survivor and run Iri Tape).
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There needs to be more pressure of her power by default. you can completely avoid it as of right now
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Her tp cooldown is so damn long. Should be lowered to at least 20-30 seconds. And she needs better addons
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Aku's Sadako Solution:
Link every gen to a TV set. Let Sadako's curse protect the gen from being worked at while the TV got its tape.
This forces one survivor per gen to take the tape, keep taps on their condemnation, maybe wanting to hold on to a tape till the gen is done, before hauling it over half the map etc.
And in the same vein, Sadako gets info which gens are being worled at, but can't teleport to that gens. Maybe add a couple of extra TV sets sprinkled on the map.
I would also love to see her TVs cooldowns be lowered a good bit, as it's hindering her a lot.
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Very unique idea! But forcing survivors to interact with TVs would be way too strong IMO unless they significantly lowered the passive condemnation gain or even eliminated it. Maybe instead of preventing work on gens or slowing gen progression within active TV ranges, the number of active TVs gives Sadako a buff. Every TV that is on gives her a 2% speed boost to breaking pallets, with an additional 1% if all TVs are powered. 15% if you haven't teleported in a significant time wouldn't be game breaking by any means. She needs a little something to help her chase, unless condemnation stacks become much more threatening. I'm not sure exactly how fast Nemmy or Bubba break pallets, but Wraith's Shadow Dance add-on gives him 60% breaking AND vaulting speed when cloaked. I was going to say that holding a tape could even give that survivor a boost, but that would speed the game up too much. If gens were 5% slower if the corresponding TV was on, that might be workable / give a meaningful choice. Or when teleporting, survivors on that gen get a difficult skill check. If they miss it and are forced off, Sadako doesn't have to spend time kicking it. I'm just thinking of random buffs that could make Sadako more lethal and more fun.
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I am just throwing out ideas and brain storming. Actual fine tuning and number crunching can be done ny the guys and gals that get paid for it, but I wouls actually love to see one of my ideas realized :)
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Honestly, Sadako's power could really be made unique. I don't want her to be just a worse version of Dredge or to copy Wraith's add-ons. Risk-Reward of interacting with TVs is kind of a win-win for survivors. If you ignore the TVs maybe you get a few stacks of condemnation over the game (more if Ring Drawing / Iri Tape are being used) but it's not unusual for survivors to be perfectly fine. Or you take the tape, deny her teleport which is her main power, and you are unlikely to have full condemnation before you can deliver your tape to the right TV, unless she dedicates herself to harrassing you. And even if you do get fully condemned, she still has to down you as a basic M1 Killer.
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I think she just needs shorter TV teleport cooldowns, longer, more dangerous tape insertions and reworked addons. Maybe some passive condemnation if you work on a generator right next to a TV, to incentivize shutting it off further. Have more ways to condemn survivors with addons, instead of Ring Drawing being the only one. Survivors just need to interact with her power more, there's nothing wrong with her lack of anti-loop or not being the stealthiest stealth killer. Oh, and maybe make the addons that buff her when she comes out of a TV basekit so it's more useful in a chase.
Anyone who wants Sadako to be massively reworked into a chasing killer is missing the point, she should just have a more dangerous macro mechanic.
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2 seconds to turn in a tape is likely deliberate as it's less than the 2.7 second wipe animation Killers have to go through after a hit. If I'm reading the stats correctly, the duration of Manifesting (1.5 seconds) also applies to teleports, so if you get the interrupt by teleporting, you should get a hit. I believe One Pump Willie said you need 5 stacks of STBFL to be able to interrupt again. Considering it could be the difference between whether you outright kill a survivor or not, I doubt they would make the turn in animation longer than standard wipe animation, although I would love it if you could interrupt twice without needing 5 stacks. It feels kinda bad when I don't run STBFL in general so I usually have it on most of my builds.
She could just be fine tuned (TV CDs) and given more add-ons that do what Iri Tape and Ring Drawing do (turn TVs back on / spread condemnation stacks) but I think they could get more creative with the risk reward of interacting with TVs. And while it would be perfectly fine to be the most basic M1 Killer if her macro pressure had more weight to it, I wouldn't complain if she got a little something while demanifested to like, help her mindgame more or something. Help her break pallets or vault faster, and you could tie the buff to how many condemn stacks she has. Just a little buff to make demanifesting in chase easier to make worthwhile. Admittedly, I need to keep trying to use demanifestation for mindgames, I bet there's more potential at some loops, especially since she is so short.
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I like that such posts pops over and over, maybe devs pay attention. I gave many many suggestions too, but now I'll give simple idea: weld Sadako's addons into her basekit.
Iri tape + Drawing + Newspaper. It will already make her very neat and still far from strong.
And lullaby have to go. Just completely.
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I understand that I don't know what it takes to be a game developer. I think they have had enough success to hire the right people to get the work done. They are busy with the new Chapter which I am super excited for, which includes a decent rework of RPD. The game is the best it has ever been. Just give us 5 second DS stuns back. And they have stated that they don't want knee-jerk reactions and massive overcorrections. I've always thought they moved much too slowly with balancing, but I'll definitely give them credit for reworking 40 perks. But this is the team that took like 5 years to give Trapper, their poster boy, the ability to carry 2 traps basekit. And I played plenty of games bagless.
IMO smaller, more frequent changes would give more feedback and help alleviate issues more immediately instead of having to prove to a committee that X is a problem, and it is not likely to break the game. They could have made TV CDs 90 seconds weeks ago just to see how it goes. Not a full fix, but visible proof that they are looking into fixing that problem, gathering data. I realize it's a process, but I think it's been long enough for them to see that Onryo is underpowered and they could start with small changes until they have time for a full add-on rework.
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without a doubt, sadako needs a Buff, however the buffs need to be effective even against high level players, every time the developers adjust a killer it only serves to kill weak survs, which he already did: -"Please Penalts , acknowledge that!"
-there should be something to force the surv to pick up the tapes, for example, they could only interact with generators by picking up the tape and after a while they should pick it up again
-Yes, I agree, sadako's condemnation should be more punitive, an experienced player would loop her easily even with the condemnation activated, maybe the exposed state or even an instant death like you mentioned would make her passive more oppressive
It seems that the devs even after 6 years don't know how to balance the game to be fun for beginners and challenging for veterans, this is the reality
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Why don't we give Sadako a Well where she spawns that she can always teleport to? It's part of her lore, you can keep 7 TVs (although 100 seconds is too long of a CD and everyone knows it) and it'd be a cool animation. I thought it'd be cool if she could move a teleportation spot like Demo sets up his portals, but moving a TV or a Well doesn't really make sense. Sometimes the TV spawns are bad due to RNG but you learn to deal with it.
My top ideas I keep coming back to are these:
- TV CDs set to 70s baseline, and all hits reduce the CD (after her teleport, not when a survivor takes a tape) by 10s. This rewards fast hits, and survivors will see more benefit to interacting with TVs b/c the 60s CD can only be shortened by the Well Stone add-on.
- Sadako sees Killer Instinct after a teleportation that gives condemnation stacks. The length of Killer Instinct can be lengthened by add-ons or depending on how many condemnation stacks the survivor has.
- Sadako manifests / demanifests faster based on total condemnation stacks across all survivors. (Or based on active TVs)
- Like Michael, Sadako can vault and break pallets based on how many TVs are turned on. (Or based on condemnation stacks)
- Pallet stuns are reduced by up to 50% while demanifested.
- Potential add-ons that could be basekit: Mother's comb, Bloody Fingernails, VCR, and Telephone.
- Another lore appropriate buff would be spreading Condemnation to your teammates when you turn in a tape. To compensate, turning in the tape to the target TV would remove 4 stacks again.
Also, while any of these could be add-ons, I'd prefer her basekit be buffed first. Add-ons could increase the range around TVs wher survivors gain stacks of condemnation. One could be like a much stronger Newspaper, making Sadako invisible while demanifested. She still has a faint lullaby like Wraith, too. Maybe Sadako could turn off a TV (that's near a completed gen, for example) in order to reduce the CD for her remaining TVs. Or if she doesn't condemn anyone after a teleport, she sees survivor auras for 2-3 seconds. There's so much cool stuff they could do because you can base buffs / debuffs around condemnation stacks. I'm pretty sure she'll get an add-on pass so I think that's why they are taking a while. Besides better add-ons I hope they reduce her TV CDs at least.
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Devs wont listen, thats fine, because they are the devs.
Nice to see people with ideas and spending time to it, but dont expect it to happen.
The only thing we know is that they will take a look at the Twins.
The last Q&A feels like it was an eternity back in the day.
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Devs are doing something. Probably. I hope they can do something to curb the rampant cheater epidemic.
Whenever they get to buffing Sadako, I hope they are creative.
They could make add-ons that give status effects (Oblivious, Hemorrhage, Blindness, Exhausted) when hit or when they gain a stack of condemn.
I think a cool add-on would give her info to help her always be interrupting survivors. Like seeing auras of those 32m away from a TV, if no one is within condemnation range. This could be on a 60s CD, but that way she could make use out of TVs near gens that are completed, where survivors are not likely to be near.
If the obsession is holding a tape, those around her (within 16m) gain passive stacks on condemnation. Very specific so I don't think it'd be too strong, but something like this would help spread condemnation.
It might be abusable but an add-on to reduce the time where passive condemnation stops building after you leave chase.
An add-on to increase the time it takes to interact with TVs. It could also give a notification.
Or if you are within maybe 8m of a teammate who is interacting with a TV, you gain a stack. This helps when a teammate turns off a target TV so someone can turn in safely and cannot be interrupted by a teleport.
It would be crazy cool if when you demanifest in chase, a second 'illusion' Sadako is spotted nearby when you remanifest. I assume they would be similar to Doctor illusions which are easy to spot, but this could improve her mindgames at loops fairly significantly when timed correctly.
Would it be broken to have periods of time when players' condemnation stacks are hidden from them? Or maybe you can only see your own stacks of condemnation until a teammate is fully condemned. Of maybe there's a delay from when you gain a stack of condemnation and when it is shown on the UI.
Basekit I'd love it if the UI didn't give away that Sadako is the Killer, at least until her TVs turn on for the first time.
An exhaustion version of Rickety Pinwheel / Sea-soaked Cloth would be very strong. Maybe the effect wouldn't linger like the existing add-ons, but if a survivor runs close to a powered TV in chase, becoming exhausted might make a big difference. It would be about as strong as Fearmonger, but you could turn the TV off to disable it.
Not to be too similar to Wraith, but I wouldn't say no to an aura reading add-on for when you are demanifested. Buffing the demanifested state would be a fair way to increase her power.
I've never seen the movie(s) but would a madness type effect be lore appropriate? Maybe make skill checks a little harder when you have multiple stacks of condemnation. Impossible skill check builds are not good on Sadako b/c she's basically a stealth Killer, but it could synergize with her Merciless Storm perk and Huntress Lullaby.
I don't mind having a lullaby as loud gens usually cover it up, but maybe if you are fully condemned you no longer hear it, making it a little scarier to reach 7 stacks. People think she needs some kind of exposed add-on but that could only work if the survivor is NOT fully condemned.
I think having an add-on to change a person's target TV when you hit them while they are holding a tape would be cool. Might be risky for her b/c it's better that she knows which TV you are going for, but it wastes more of the survivor's time having to cross the map again.
Another way to make her teleportation power available more often would be to reduce the TV CDs each time a generator is completed. Much like Freddy her power is a little less useful when generators are done.
There are so many things they could do to make Sadako a more fun Killer to play and go against. Give her ways to reduce her TV CDs so she can maintain mapwide pressure. Encourage survivors to interact with TVs as a secondary objective that will keep them off gens. Let her gain buffs depending on if she is demanifested, how many TVs are powered, and / or how many stacks of condemnation there are. She can remain a weak M1 Killer in chase if she can truly shine as a hit-and-run Killer with her Condemnation mechanic being threatening enough that survivors need to actually go out of their way to manage it.
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One more add-on idea! After the initial explosion reveal of their target TV, survivor's cannot see the aura of their target TV outside of 8-16m. This reminds me of a Pig add-on where you can't see the box auras, I believe.
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Funny thing is: she is the most deadliest killer in the game if u look at the nightlight-stats.
Of course I know that she is D-Tier and this numbers doesnt make sense at all 😅
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