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Camping and Tunneling is a Necessary Evil...from a Survivor Main's POV
So, I'm a survivor main, and I've mostly been playing killer during the Bloodhunt for BP. But, I wanted to play Survivor and track whether or not the killers camped or tunneled and WHEN they did it. And whether or not it gave them a win. I do see camping and tunneling as a valid strategy at times, but some killers will camp at 5 gens and it's like...why? But, you'll see.
My build was the same throughout all 10 games: Kindred, Windows of Opportunity, Distortion, and Spine Chill. (I'm a solo queue noob cut me some slack plz. But hey, at least it's not Dead Hard...)
Game 1: A Plague that camped and tunneled at 4 gens left.
Game 2: An Oni that camped and tunneled at 3 gens left.
Game 3: A Huntress that didn't tunnel or camp at all. But, I found out after the game that one of the Steves in my lobby was hacking. However, the Huntress was still very kind of me so shout out to her.
Game 4: A Nurse that TRIED to camp and tunnel someone, but only at one gen left because that's how long it took for her to down and hook one of us. So I definitely think camping and tunneling is a fair play then.
Game 5: A Nemesis that didn't camp OR tunnel...(I know...it shocked me too.)
Game 6: A Deathslinger that camped but only when all the gens were finished. And even then he didn't tunnel at all. Always went after the person who unhooked. Shout out to that Deathslinger.
Game 7: A Nurse that camped and tunneled at 3 gens.
Game 8: A Huntress that tunneled and camped at 5 gens.
Game 9: A Doctor that didn't tunnel or camp, shout out to him. However, he had Hangman's Trick and ate up my Distortion stacks so that was very rude.
Game 10: Another Doctor that didn't camp or tunnel. BUT, I had a group of survivors that were trolling around the whole game. Taking hits for avoid hooks (he had sloppy) refusing to heal or do gens, AND they brought us to the game...was a tragic end to my experiment. But the Doctor was cool though.
This isn't a "Omg killers are camping and tunneling I hate them" post so killer mains put your pitchforks down.
I actually wanted to address the amount of kills each killer got. The ones that camped / tunneled early. Games 1, 2, 7 and 8. All got 4ks.
However, the ones that didn't camp or tunnel at all, got 0-1 kills...even the Nurse in game 4 didn't get a single kill. What I hate about camping and tunneling is that it's such a valid strategy that I can't even argue against it at times. Like, this could be something that's changed with the meta shakeup. But, why hasn't BHVR addressed this. It's such a boring and annoying play style but it's annoying how necessary it is.
I'm also not saying that every killer can ONLY get 4ks if they camp or tunnel. And a couple of my games had survivors DC or give up on hook so there's not much you can even do there.
How would you guys stop the camping / tunneling issue? For killers that camp or tunnel early on, what would encourage you to move away from the hook and patrol gens / start a chase with another survivor?
Comments
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I was going to play some games tonight and I'd love to add some data to your pool if that's okay. Can you be very specific on what you count as tunneling and camping? I'd like to make sure the criteria is identical for consistency.
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Killers need an incentive to force them to not camp and tunnel, typically, BBQ does this most of the time, at least until they get all stacks, I think the game should reward more post-game BP for those who dont tunnel, or more BP for the survivors that do get tunneled that way they dont lose out on a bunch of BP from it.
I always see suggestions that promote punishing the killer to camp and tunnel, I mean, DS is in the game, it isnt stopping anything really, punishing killers for playing the game is not only going to not affect the way people play, but harm the experience of those who accidently tunnel or camp without realizing they are. Punishing is a double-edged sword, rewarding isnt when done right.
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As much as I hate camping/tunneling and wouldn't even mind built in anti- camp/tunnel features in the game, the problem is that in the games current state it is required on most killer if you're against good survivors at high mmr regardless of how good you are. That's how unbalanced the game currently is, it's just a fact.
The solution here is balancing the game better to the point where were able to build those features into the game and the killers don't need to camp or tunnel in order to win.
It's currently just a necessary evil though.
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I think as long as survivors have stupid, unfair ways to survive, killers should have stupid, unfair ways to kill. Once those obnoxious tools are taken from survivors, then the tools should begin to be taken away from killers aswell.
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Tunneling is the most efficient way to eliminate a survivor. If a killer is struggling, be it by (relative) lack of skill, experience or time then it is the way to go.
Lack of skill and experience could only be fixed by matchmaking.
Lack of time can only be solved by preventing the generators to pop that fast (particularly in parallel). Since doing a generator is a pretty boring task and takes already a while, the solution has to come from some artificial limitation on parallel work.
Of course some players will tunnel just because and there is no magical solution for this.
(Some variation of) camping is often the best move in some situations. e.g. Force a hook stage to punish survivors playing gens-before-friends or hiding too well. I don't think there is a magical solution for that one either.
As annoying as it is, I don't think a fix is needed anyway. Maybe instead the game should encourage a different perception of these situations. e.g. With points or bonuses for the "victim".
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Most of my last few games have almost all followed the same patterns. The survivors are slamming gens (often without a care for the ones being hooked) and I'm forced to camp or tunnel one of them to slow the game down.
Even playing my main killer (Nurse) with a very strong build (gen regression, range and cool-down add-ons : something I almost never do) I've been forced to kill someone straight in most game. (My rule of thumb is : if there are only two gens left, someone has to die "now", no matter what.)
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Tunneling for me is going directly after someone who JUST got off hook. If a survivor is able to do something that would disable their Decisive Strike, I don't consider that tunneling on the killers part.
In Game 3, I had gotten unhooked and immediately ran across the map. There were 2 people on the gen and the Huntress was coming our way. I got on the gen and helped them finish it, then the Huntress came around, found me, then hooked me. I had only been off hook for like 20-30 seconds or so. But I helped finish a gen. So I wouldn't count that as a tunnel.
So if a surv is able to heal, cleanse or boon totems, do a gen, etc. Then it's not tunneling imo. Cause that implies they had the time to get back into the game and play it / get points.
I consider it camping when the killer stays within like 16 meters of a hooked survivor at all times. If you can see them on Kindred then I consider it camping / proxy camping unless they're chasing a survivor who is around the hooked player.
This is a really good point. Built it BBQ would be great for this I think.
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The issue is honestly gen speeds. I say that as a killer main that hates slowdown perks because of how boring they are and I hardly use them, and I also think complaining about gen rush is cringe.
It takes 80 seconds to do a single generator, and lets say it takes 20 seconds to find a second generator after you finish one. So 100 seconds per generator.
If only one survivor, I repeat, only ONE survivor out of the four survivors is doing gens and the killer is playing for 12 hooks, the killer has around 40 seconds per hook before the gens are completed. One survivor being chased, one on hook, one going for unhook, on on gens.
If two survivors are doing gens, the killer has 20 seconds per hook. Two on gens, one in chase, one hovering for unhook or flashy save.
If three survivors are on gens at all times, the killer has only 14 seconds per hook before the gens are finished. One survivor in chase, three on gens. The hooked survivor unhooks himself with Slippery Meat or Deliverance.
So the most efficient way to get multiple hooks quickly and put a dent in the survivor's gen efficiency is to just tunnel a survivor off hook. Face camping is a great way to throw the game, but tactically camping someone to second stage to punish a late unhook is a good play. Camping to force a 1 for 1 is also a good move.
Camping and tunneling is more an answer to how DbD works as a game. You do not have time to run around and chase every survivor, you need to kill them ASAP or they have a good chance to escape.
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"Can you be very specific on what you count as tunneling and camping? I'd like to make sure the criteria is identical for consistency."
This is very important. In general I think people vastly over exaggerate what is considered camping or tunneling. I get lots of solo queue games where my teammates call the killer a camper or tunneler when he definitely didn't.
Like if the same guy gets hooked twice in a row regardless of the reason, lots will call that tunneling. There are many times when I'm playing killer where I specifically don't pay attention to who I'm hooking since I don't intend to tunnel anyone out and just hook whoever I happen to run into. Many times that can just happen to be the same person and I get called a tunneler even though I wouldn't call that tunneling. It was literally just coincidence.
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That's a tricky one chief, and something i'v been trying to figure out myself. Take Plague for example: I love Plague, Plague is fun, Plague also NEEDS to camp some games. She's tall so mindgames are harder and while everyone is essentially exposed for the match Dead Hard exists(Which I feel the same way about DH as you do about camping. Unfair vs 90% of killers, but needed to have a chance vs a good Blight or Nurse.) so she needs her red puke. Red puke only happens with survivors heal, and a lot of times they won't heal on a survivor sided map unless they need to rescue, so whatcha gonna do about it except down the weak link and camp his butt?
Slowing down Gens would mean you don't NEED to camp or tunnel, but it would also make camping and tunneling even stronger, and it doesn't solve mechanical incentives to camp from some killers like the above. So...I guess you would need to figure out some way to make Grim Embrace Meta?
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But even if you had that time, wouldnt it even be better to camp and tunnel then? Because you still got one survivor out, but the gen progress hasnt punished you so hard for it anymore. So why would it change anything if its still the better option?
Because if the only way the killer doesnt camp or tunnel is to make the game so he 4ks anyway, i dont think the game has much time to go, and on every other scenario its a better option.
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In my opinion tunneling and camping are lazy and undemanding tactics which the game shouldnt reward as much or even punish but they are currently necessary due to imbalance reasons. Beside that we shouldnt forget specific designs of some killers like hag if a change would happen in any way.
An interesting but not fully thought out idea ive heard discussed in some of the balancing threads were comeback mechanics.
Means as example stuff like self-adjusting gen times and survivor healing buffs depending on how many survivors are alive and how many gens are completet. If youre tunneling someout out you do it to slow down the game and to have easier access to slugging and managing seperate gens and survivors but if the gen times are staying consistently doable for the survivors because the objective times adjust it gives less of an advantage in this section. This could also help against people who dc or hookkill themselfes to punish the remaining survivors less harsh and motivate more to stay.
For the killer on hinsight the gen times could stay consistently high aslong as all/more survivors are alive, maybe they could be even highered a bit, to reward going for more hooks, punish single mistakes less harsh and helps a bit against really bad rng.
Allover this ideas focus on moving the winning conditions away from a single momentum that could decide the game towards rewarding more dynamic and consistent good play during the whole duration of a match.
Another idea that possible crossovers with this topic is to bann certain maps for some killers, killers like huntress have a big disadvantage on maps like lerrys f.e. everytime i meet one they fight 2-3 gens for a single down and often try to camp and tunnel it out then. I think problematic maps should be banned for certain killers if theres no qualitve gameplay possible.
Post edited by Impalpable on0 -
By far my biggest issue with tunneling and camping, is that the survivor who got tunneled and camped out recieves little to no BP, while their teammates still expect them to stay hooked as long as possible.
I have no incentive to stay on the hook as long as possible, I am already going out with 8k BP at most, why would I stick around for another 2 minutes when I could go into queue and find another game? It's more BP efficient for me to suicide on hook than it is to stick around. Meaning in those scenario's, its also better for the killer to tunnel and camp, because survivors are much more likely to suicide on hook early in the game due to the amount of time saved for just going to another game.
My solution:
- Split killer BP gains in 2, right now, practically all 4 catagories get filled for simply playing the game. Split the catagories in 2, 1 that reduces the BP you get for sticking inside the hooked range while not being in chase, and the other one that gets you BP as it does currently. This would highly desentivize camping as it actively reduces your BP.
- create a survivor BP pool, with a cap of 32k bp per catagory, and divide the BP based on how active they have been in certain catagories. Lightbringer would coincide with how much you've been working on gens and totems(but totems would still fill up Evader, as to basically "tip" the person being chased). Survival would be based on Unhooking teammates. Altruism based on healing and Evader based on chase. That means if you have done 99% of the chase, being tunneled and camped, and the evader catagory gained a total of 30k BP, you'd recieve 29k BP in that game. Your teammates would have to do with the remaining 3k in Evader, but they would divide the remainder of the points. It also means that if you've basically carried gens, chase, healing and unhooking for everyone, you'd be able to recieve more than 32k bp. This way, you fix the issues of survivors not doing ######### all game and still recieving 10k BP because they escaped through the hatch as the obsession, and also fix the BP issue around tunneling and camping.
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See: here's the thing.
As a streamer I enjoy put it a good while back, camping and tunneling is like eating a puppy.
There are times when there is no food, and it's do that or starve.
But when someone immediately starts asking the waiter about their puppy special for the evening, they probably need watching.
I think most people understand why a killer will tunnel someone out ASAP or camp someone if it's a tough game. It's the killers that will slug everyone at 5 gens with Knockout and watch them bleed out, or hard camp their first down that people dislike.
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Distortion...really
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The meta really requires it, if you don't have 1 dead surv by 2/3 gens your done as a killer.
Unless you're running a noed no way out build, and then you still need to get lucky.
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I like to be able to know what aura reading perks the killer has.
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