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Why do some people say that Dead Hard is a fair perk?
I know that this is a dead horse, but there are STILL people who think Dead Hard is fair, even against fatigue-based killers such as Nurse or Billy.
There are people who say you can bait out Dead Hard for distance, or bait it out as Nurse when in fatigue.
Do these people not play killer, are they trolling, or is there something I'm not getting?
If you think Dead Hard is counterable and fair, please tell me why.
Comments
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Because people don't want the devs to see that it's overpowered, and try to market it as a "fair" perk
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Finally someone talks about Dead Hard!
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Who ever said it is fair?
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Various people on Twitter, in Discord servers, even on the DBD subreddit. Of course I can't name names, but there are people out there that I'm fairly sure are serious.
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But why dont you discuss it there, then, because then the people saying this can answer? Why go to another plattform to ask about something someone on that plattform said? Unless they use both, you wont get an answer, right? Because everyone else can just guess.
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Because those are not the big Killer Echo-Chamber like the Forums.
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Because it's always met with no answer or something like "ok killer main." I figured people on the forums would have an actual reason.
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If I wanted to have a circlejerk about how bad Dead Hard is, I could. I want an actual answer to understand the other side then I may stop complaining.
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It’s very fair against Nurse. It’s almost required against her otherwise you just die instantly without much counterplay. I’m down for a Dead Hard nerf because it needs it but it absolutely shouldn’t be nerfed without Nurse seeing something.
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You can still buy time against a good nurse without dh... it was never a requirement.
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Reminds me that people want her iri nerfed exactly for it countering Dead Hard and being a second chance addon.
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Here's why DH is fair:
Nurse can stack 2 recharge addons and basically give you 0 distance to gain. Without DH, you're not really gonna last.
Nurse also can use an addon for 3 blinks and use the best recharge addon to compensate the negative, which basically gives her 3 blinks, aka, give you 0 distance. Without DH, you're not really gonna last
Blight with Alchemist Ring. Without DH, you're gonna be downed fast. That's not even talking about hug tech.
That is not even talking about perks, as a lot of these killers either build to slug or build to slowdown the game. As long as those exist, DH must remain in the game.
In any other case, DH isnt really a fair perk, but the same logic goes behind DS. You dont know what the killer is or what they are planning to do. You dont know if the killer is gonna tunnel or not. But if they do and you dont have DS, then you're screwed for no real reason. Since you cant know if it's a Nurse with double recharge, it's always best to equip DH just in case.
As for counterability, well, technically yes? Blood Echo practically negates any exhaustion perk for some time, and if you really hate DH you can stack Blood Echo and Fearmonger. It's quite the scary combo for killers who dont really need gen regression, but only lose due to DH. I'd imagine Oni would love Blood Echo and Fearmonger these days.
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I feel like this could've been talked about in literally one of the other 40 Dead Hard threads made today.
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Don't get me started on hug tech if you think it draatically improves his viability. It is equally as powerful if not less viable than playing normally and forcing down pallets.
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So your point is
"Because 2 killers with very specifics addons are op, dh is fine. Screw the other killers, they can take 2 perks to counter a single one from survivor side and leave their regression perks which are absolutely not necessary"
Let me put this straight
Dead hard is op because gens are poping too fast. Why ? Because dead hard makes the killer lose tremendous amount of time in every chase, meaning more time to do gens.
When gen speed gets nerfed or survivors receive a secondary objective, dead hard will be fine. In the meantime its way to op in a game that people played for 6 years and learned to abuse mecanics
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Hug tech drastically decreases the counterplay against Blight. Therefor improving his viability. Drastically? Not really, but definitely more than enough to excuse the existance of DH.
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No, it's not fair
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Considering 4 survivors run DH, and DH is by far the more difficult one to counter, yeah. Use perks to counter it. Every other perk has a vanilla counter:
DS? Dont tunnel off hook. As long as you do not waste time to chase that survivor, you wont really lose time through DS.
BT? Count to 12, not that hard.
UB? Pick up the survivor.
Self-Care or CoH? Often not really used correctly, but if it does annoy you, Sloppy Butcher!
That still leaves 1 perk free for gen regression. Leaving your whole "gens pop too fast" argument null and void.
Because here's another thing, I didnt even include perks like Ruin, Pop or Pain Resonance in the mix. Ruin and Pop alone can massively increase the amount of time survivors spend on generators to the point that DH doesnt even buy time.
As for genspeed being nerfed. No. Never gonna happen. It was already nerfed from 70 seconds to 80 seconds. If you want to slow down genspeed any more, the effects of the following perks need to be completely removed or gutted to the point of uselessness:
Ruin, Pop, Thanatophobia, Dying Light, Pain Resonance, Call of Brine, DMS, Dead Lock, Eruption, Jolt, Tinkerer, Grim Embrace, Corrupt Intervention.
Perks that basically already do what you want in a game.
As for secondary objecive: Already there. Totems, hexes, boons.
As for too OP? SB is more powerful. The only reason you do not see SB a lot is because of Nurse and Blight. Once Nurse and Blight are rebalanced a bit, and DH nerfed, I 100% foresee SB replacing DH as an exhaustion perk, and that is the day when survivors will relearn how to 99 SB, which is gonna make you wish DH was reverted.
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Who cares?
Many things are “unfair” in this game. Killer and survivor.
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Excuse me but Do you think going for distance is the best strategby against Nurse? That's almost as bad as saying that you should loop a nurse...
And also... that's not a good logic, DS is, overall, a fair perk (the only unfair situation is when you force the killer to a lose-lose situation in the EGC but other than that, the abusive part of the perk has been removed), anyway point is... no one thinks DH shouldn't be in-game but there are several ways to make it fair and removing the abusive part of it... several of suggestion has been made on the forum already. One of them is meeting a requirement, if it requires to take a protection hit or safe unhook, which are not hard to get, it means you won't be able to use it in the early game without taking the perk's value and also you will encourage altruistic actions. Other suggestions that have been made were removing the frames that gives invulnerability, this helps because sometimes you as a killer have hit a survivor but that's been nulified because they were invulnerable... needless to say, there are killers such as trapper whose power can be totally negated by a survivor perk.
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And there are some people that think you need a ar 15 to defend your house as well.
There will always be extreme people who will argue anything is rational.
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Because they only play survivor.
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Try to play ruin at a decent mmr since boon implementation.
My hex totems last fo4 less than 2 min in almost every match.
Pop ? Take out some progress over 1 gen if you can make it there in time
Scourge hook is great
The game got balanced for years by adding regression perks. The gens are too fast and the devs know it. They implemented boons ti try to give survivors an incentive to do bones, they kept adding regression perks and here you tell me "just take one regression, its ok"
And by taking perks you mentiin, i cant play others like stbfl, md grit, bamboozle, etc
If having the killer to rake 3 perks to counter DEAD HARD is your solution, maybe you should consider to think about ir a bit more.
The difference between survivors and killers : killers NEED regression perks to even have a chance to win. Survivors dont need dh. At least if you want killers to actually go for 12 hooks and not having them camping.... oh wait
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you can't not play killer with 1 perk for gen regression
what are you smoking?
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Distance untill you reach an area where you can lose vision quickly. A lot of maps are open, being able to dodge 1 additional barrage of blinks by making distance is often the difference between a Nurse being able to consistently use Pain Resonance and not.
And yeah, I agree, in the EGC, BT and DS shouldnt trigger. I am firmly believing that current DS and BT could be made basekit as long as the exitgates are not powered. Meaning you wouldnt have to be scared of DS once the final gen is done and tunnel a survivor out quickly to get maximum value for other potential endgame perks.
As for DH, again, right now, the only reason why I think it should be is hugtech/alchemist ring blight and recharge addon Nurse. Because Alchemist Blight+Recharge Nurse can down you before you even reach anything you can use, even if the game just started. And Hugtech Blight removes a lot of intended counterplay. That's only 4 reasons why DH still has a reason to be in the game. As for changing DH, I am of the opinion that DH just triggers when the killer tries to down you. Remove the control from survivors and give it to killers. That does mean you are forced to hit a survivor twice, but it would remove reasons to tunnel even more. As for the benefits of that: You can swing towards a pallet, and if it were registered as a hit on the survivor end, they would DH. Since you already lunged towards the pallet, you can now block them from using the pallet. If survivors are running to a window, wait untill they are close and then swing, so they are forced to glide off the wall instead and, once again, block the window.
As for the I-frames being removed, that's a huge no. Because that would basically return DH in a worse state as being exhausted on the floor. SB gains distance faster than DH does. Hence the i-frames being necessary. For DH to remove the i-frames, means to increase the distance covered with DH. Which makes Dead Harding to windows and pallets even easier than it already is.
So I prefer the automatic dodge. It would be no different from Overcome, but instead you're injured. You cant negate Trapper traps anymore, as Trapper doesnt down survivors with his traps. It does give additional counterplay to Hag, but not much. It would be a bit annoying, but it wouldnt be hard to counterplay. Hitting the survivor ASAP in the open would always be beneficial. Hitting an injured survivor who tries to bodyblock and bait a hit would be very likely to accidentally trigger DH. An injured survivor running for an unhook cannot DH to bypass you, but instead you can trigger DH early to make them zoom past the hook and then block their angle.
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Point blank period.
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I have, it barely changed the outcome
So? survivors went out and stopped doing gens to remove your hex. That's quite a lot of time wasted.
You forget that I included Nurse and Blight in the argument. Nurse and Blight very easily can use both Ruin and Pop to maximum value.
Eh, its a bit too much considering it can stack with Ruin and Tinkerer. It basically tells you if you can ignore the gen or have to go there before it pops.
Yeah, the game also got balanced by adding anti-tunnel perks. Gens arent too fast, but if that's your main complaint, use perks. If they "fix" genspeeds, that also means reworking all genregression perks into completely different effects. And yeah, just ######### use them if it's annoying you. I have played plenty of games without gen regression. Because do survivors win when the 5th gen is done? No, and my gen regression becomes worthless if there are no gens. Heck, if I have Pop, I often dont really use it unless I happen to go to a gen that's nearly done. No need for me to go out of my way to kick a gen and let my pressure go away so survivors can recover.
So? If I take DH, DS, BT and UB, I cant take self-care, I cant take Kindred, I cant take Bond, I cant take Resillience, I cant take Spine-Chill etc.
It's 2 perks, and yeah, Exhaustion perks are survivor resources that are very important once pallet in an area are gone, let alone that deadzones also spawn into the game. Without exhaustion perks, there is very little chance that you can reach a tile before being downed. So if you want to counter 4(!!!) EXHAUSTION PERKS, yeah, you better get to use 2 perks. The same is true for Pop or hex totems. If you hate hex totems, you often have to use 2 perks if you want to get rid of them quickly. You can still counter DH by simply baiting a bit, its really not that hard.
Killers do not need regression perks to have a chance to win. That's like saying survivors need DS to even have a chance of escaping. If you heavily rely on regression perks, you're simply in the wrong bracket. Stop using regression perks and let the MMR sort you where you should be playing at.
As for killers going for 12 hooks if there was no DH. Wrong. Killers would be more likely to tunnel. Remember the month where DS was changed to no longer work if you touched any gen, and there were games with no DS at all? Did killers not tunnel that month because there finally was no DS to worry about, or did killers start tunneling so hard that the devs were forced to implement a basekit obsession just to stop the hardcore tunneling? With your logic, there would be no basekit obsession these days. DH, BT and DS are all deterrents to not chase a survivor directly off the hook. Without DH, killers would be more likely to tunnel, as there is no DH. We already have 2 era's when there was at least 1 deterrent unavailable: back when generators were 70 seconds, killers camped and tunneled hardcore to the point where survivors invented the saboteur meta. Without DS being a possibility, killers proxy camped and tunneled hardcore.
So no, killers would never go for 12 hooks. If you'd remove all the perks that "force killers to tunnel and camp", you'd only end up with more killers tunneling and camping, except they would have no punishment for doing so. Besides, the average amount of hooks in a game is only 8. You have 3 for your first kill, 3 for your second kill, either 2 for your 3rd and 0 for the 4th, or 1 for your 3rd and 1 for the 4th. That's the average. That average will be reduced to 7 after the mori is made basekit, but that's still not even close to 12 hooks. The remaining 4 hooks are an optional objective for the killer, just like hexes, boons and dull totems are optional objectives for survivors.
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If you need 1 regression perk to win about 50% of your games, you're being boosted by the perk and should refrain from using it to drop a little bit lower untill you can play without regression perks. You should be able to win about 50% of your games regardless of the perks you use. If you heavily rely on certain perks to win 50% of your games, your MMR isnt based on skill, but on perks. If you need 2 to win about 50% of your games, you're being hard carried and should stop using both to drop a little bit as you will never have fun playing killer.
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I disagree with SB being more powerful. You can leave chase so early when someone uses sprint burst and if they wanna use it mid chase then good on them for leaving their objective to 99 a sprint burst. DH is more powerful because its on demand while injured. Sure someone might be an insta down killer like billy or bubba but.. you just dont heal then you still get 2 health states vs an insta down.
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Dead Hard is fair because the game is so killer sided that we need Dead Hard to even have a chance of survival.
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Against nurse and blight it's perfectly fair. Against any other killer it's not
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do you even play killer? if you do is it just Blight and Nurse? because either you don't know what your talking about or you letting 2 Op killer carry you.
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Echo chambers would require people both listen and agree. This forum is actually split pretty evenly and most people don't listen or agree with anything anyone says.
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people here think this is just a Killer forum but I think it more of a (we play both sides) forum with a few killer mains and survivor main here and there.
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No dude, he is right, playing without any regression perk is almost suicidal to say the least, whatever if you're good or not, the gens really pop fast, even more if people bring toolbox or prove thyself
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There is barely anything that can be considered "fair" in this game. Both roles.
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Funny, I literally see comments about single day on the reddit page about now "this is a killer sided echo chamber".
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It's natural to defend what makes what side strong. I personally believe that people that say DH is fair either don't play other PvP games or don't know what risk/reward means and if I'm being honest, this community (survivor specifically) isn't ready to talk about risk/reward.
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I find it funny that you came up with that idea because ever since they announced the 40 or so perk rework changes, I've been sleeping on what could they do to make dead hard to be more of a killer-sided perk.
I think they might change it where you press dead hard and during like small window like 1 sec, you auto-dead hard which removes dead hard for distance for the survivor and only allows it to be used for iframes if the killer swings, otherwise the perk goes on 40 second exhaustion and does nothing.
I'd say dead hard for iframes has counter-play if your in lunge distance. This is because survivor cannot vault windows as they cannot dead hard during vaults and they cannot drop pallets because you can swing into the pallet and during pallet drop, you can hit the survivor resulting in a wasted pallet drop and relatively easy survivor down. I could talk about how to counter 360-dead hard's and FOV tech dead hards. they have counter-play that we will skip the details.
Dead hard for Iframes lack counter-play for abilities that are telegraphed because the survivor can react to the ability by pressing it at the correct time. so this is like every projectile in the game because all projectiles have travel distance, so huntress hatchets, doctor shock, pyramid head's POD, Artist ranged crows, etc. For Nurse and Blight, you can somewhat react to nurse's blink and blight's lethal rush with dead hard, but they can bait your dead hard usage if nurse blinks right on top of you or in blight case, bounce right next to you. I'd almost argue that dead hard affects blight and nurse a lot less than it does with other killers because they get many more chances hit the survivor so there is more opportunity for them to waste dead hard compare to other killers.
I would say dead hard for distance is probably the more broken part of dead hard because it is like having sprint burst on 99% on every single chase against the 110%/115% m/s killers. A lot of the loops in the game rely on the killer double backing or walking forward(the survivor hesitating to vault) and if you make good read as killer, you are suppose to gain distance on the survivor such that the survivor in next 3-5 second is suppose to take a hit. Experienced killers know when they're going get a hit well in advance as they know how long it takes for them to catch up the survivor visually speaking and swing to get the hit. This is little bit like predicting the future before the result happens. The problem is that experienced survivors also know this, so extra distance that dead hard provides in short bursts is difference between the killer getting into lunge distance and not being in distance at all to acquire a hit.
in short, Dead hard removes the risk of making mistakes at tiles by readjusting the distance lost on bad vault/overextended pallets. While that doesn't seem like a big deal in grand scheme of things, survivor want to take risks at window vaults and pallet loops in order to prologue the chase and conserve resources on the map allowing them to loop longer. Since the survivor decides when they get extra distance, the killer lacks any control in changing outcome in the loop. They're essentially forced to waste the perk in order to counter-play it thereby providing 3rd health state in places where they would got a hit.
I would say having auto-dead hard would be even more powerful than current version of dead hard because you could force dead-hard for distance with no skill/timing involved. Dead hard is not powerful perk at lower mmr's, as seen by pick-rates. survivors below 1500 MMR do not know how to utilize to full potential dead hard. They lack the game knowledge to do so. It is only powerful after 1600+ MMR where it reaches 60-75%+ pick-rate for when survivor know how to utilize its distance gain benefits properly. With auto-dead hard, you'd also force every killer to suffer a miss attack cooldown and I guaranteed that no killer would run the 30% unrelenting perk. This is also why in part the dev did not really notice dead hard dominance as a perk because the dev collect feedback from lower-level players where a perk like sprint burst or Lithe is considered -better- for being easier to use.
The strong survivor players have been using dead hard for nearly 5 years and that perk has never left my survivor load-out since its introduction. so out of all the perks that they're changing, dead hard is most fascinating perk of them all.
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Just add Exhausted to every second chance perk problem solved. If they make BT base kit it's gonna suck for every killer so they need something useful in return.
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only against m1 killers dead hard is unfair, totally fair against many m2 killers.
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Oh no, the Forum is full of Killer Mains.
Just open a Thread complaining about some Killer Issue and then one complaining about some Survivor Issue. You will see the difference in replies.
Or just open a Thread saying that the game is sooooo miserable for Killer. Just say that. You will drown in Upvotes.
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Because the majority of Survivors don't know how to play the game
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The same people who said strechted was fine.
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Here some exemples of builds i run
nurse : tinkerer ruin ud retribution
Legion: bbq jolt ruin pain resonnance
Oni : ruin infectious brutal strength bbq
Doctor : huntress lumlaby distressing unerving presence merciless storm
Clown : jolt, stbfl, discordance, pop
Deathslinger : ruin ud stbfl bbq
I could go on since i play all killers and never play the same twice in a row.
So i have mostly 2 gen regression by build. And its barely enough to cope with second chances survivors get
I do not struggle in chase at my mmr and since i encounter 70% of dh (i keep track of survivors perks in a google sheet), it means i should be in at least the 70th percentile given the stats devs gave.
The part where i struggle tho is when i chase a survivor, then i win the chase but they extend it for an extra 30 seconds by pressing e.
Meanwhile, gens are popping and im too far comited to drop the chase
Btw you keep bringing ds, bt and ub in the equation whereas i never talked about these. Im fine with ds and bt since i mostly always try to go for the most hooks and i even think they should be basekit at some extent, but i guess you just assume that every killers is a filthy tunneler by nature.
Talking about exhaustion perks, i dont have or want to counter sb, balanced, lithe, im fine with these and i can play around. So yes, picking blood echo is only for dead hard players. And its not even that good or reliant, its a bad perk.
I truly think im fine where i stand and that im not biaised on the dh problem. You on the other hand, seem to try to justify that its not broken af by any means. Hell, you even played the "tunnelers killers" card.
Maybe you should question yourself on this :
"It seems most people out there are complaining about dead hard and its a fact that dead hard is by very far the most used perk. Am i wrong ?"
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Because it has boosted them into a skill bracket they don't belong in, so they feel reliant on it.
It's similar to stacking four slowdown perks and then still losing, chances are you didn't do very well in chase, aka you're not skilled enough to catch your opponents in time. Dead Hard is stronger than any single regression perk though.
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I dont play with exhaustion and instead using windows of opportunity. It is slowly making me a better player.
Also I so sick of E perk that I cant use it myself anymore. People who say Sprint burst is better are delusional
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Dead Hard isn't fair and balanced. Against the lower tier killers especially it kills them.
However Nurse and Blight are only balanced out by this perk. S tier literally should read "They're that strong that you need Dead Hard to counter them". I think both these two killers, especially they're add-ons need looked at when this meta nerf happens.
I also believe that after this perk is nerfed, something else will take it's place on these forums.
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Because all other exhaustions are weak af and nurse, blight spirit exist
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Probably because they play ONLY one side...
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