What's up with sadistic survivors/killers?
I don't know why, but it seems that the more time passes the more survivors are becoming more sadistic, tbagging, flashlight macroing, rage quitting when a bully failed, slurs in chat. Even when you play fair and you don't camp or tunnel.
Do you have any idea why?
Also, for some reason the word "sadistic" is banned from the in game chat. Why BHVR?
EDIT: also this happens with killers too, with some Nurses mains using range add-ons, or Blights, tunneling, eating DS and then hitting you on hook even if you played super fair without Dead hard.
It didn't happen this consistently in the past, I swear.
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That’s not how I’d describe “sadistic” lol
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The game has been bleeding high MMR killers for months now so all the good survivors are getting put with baby killers who can't handle it. Unfortunately some of these survivors believe that it's because they're Gods Gift to DBD and they're just SO talented and so they mock the killer (who they believe is their equal, not some baby killer that is getting thrown to the wolves because of the stupid MMR system).
For killers, a lot of those same baby killers are now getting super frustrated with being a survivor punching bag and have decided to deliver Street Justice themselves by making unrelated survivors games worse by now allowing them to play with Face Camping and whatnot
Now the survivors who are getting face camped and whatnot are irked so they decide to start delivering Street Justice to killers by being clickity click annoying little aholes
This in turn makes the killers...
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There are two reasons, number one is because the gameplay is to one dimensional and boring, so people start to treat this game like a 'sandbox' and come up with their own weird stuff 'for fun' with the tools available with stuff like chest defender bubba and whatnot, even though bully squads were strongly motivated and supported by BHVR since they liked the idea of survivors fighting back but they never came up with qualitive gameplay elements therefore and just adopted some rancid toxic stuff which developed through the community exploiting the game like in every other game and threw some perks on top of that hill. So bully squads became one of the most popular alternative ways of gameplay even though not really effective.
Number two is that not only survivors were motivated to tryhard with the sbmm but also killers, the crafted enviroment is really sweaty and survivors often get tunneled out to make the game playable for the killer, its frustrating for both sides, and if people see that they are the first down and will most likely get tunneled anyway they as well might just dc, the more frustration builds up over time the more dcs are happening. I played vs ttv people who were on the verge of burnout from the game. The second conlusion is that this frustration turns into hate towards the other side and people are more likely to pissing the other side off for revenge.
So yea in conclusion: fun, gameplay variety, frustration, revenge and sadism.
Post edited by Impalpable on6 -
Being sadistic, from the Oxford Languages definitions, means "deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others". Which is the intent of those I described, especially those who want to flashlight macro all times and don't just do some funny tbags or just want to provocate you a bit in a funny way.
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Very good analysis.
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Probably what's happening, a lot of frustration all around.
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I’m sorry but someone teabagging you at a pallet does not make them a sadistic sociopath
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Disagree, even though you might not interpret it this way, a bigger part of the community interpret it as unneccessary annoyance with no good intent then to hurt the dignity of the other player and mentally exhaust them which in response lead to 4-minute slugs which must be statistic wise a big enough reason for bhvr to state as one of the positive aspects what comes with the finisher mori.
Just like in real life bullying gets understimated in this game which causes less qualitive gameplay and a more toxic community.
I would suggest you to watch every now and then some of the unpopular streamers, its very informative to psychoanalyze what certain gameplay elements does to a person on the recieving end and easy to figure out what is healthy for the game.
You should also keep in mind that we are in the gaming industry and not in a buissness office where you could ask for people to get their stuff together. People are childish and stubborn, theres not always the most rational reasoning involved while you play, you are passionate and potentially emotional and just do it for fun. Not to face a toxicity war.
Even though teabagging is something i could defend as part of the game, it gets worse in connection with the other tools of these people.
In Macro Flashlight i see absolutly no defendable reason anymore to not call it sadistic. Its used as a tactical method to irritate the oponent and could count even as the mildest form of torture with trying to cause a shut down reaction of the hearing of the killer.
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Because, well, to dust off an old chestnut:
It comes down to moderation, unfortunately - and BHVR have been very clear that they think that smack talk and BM is an essential part of the online gaming experience.
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Define 'rage add-ons'
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You can have a sadistic behaviour even if it's not your entire personality.
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People in general are awful
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good point
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I don't think people that do these things actively get pleasure from doing it. Most of the time it's to put you on edge or there just a ######### person.
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sadistic is not the word to use. More like immature.
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Exactly, flashlight macroing is definitely being sadistic.
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I meant range of course
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So you're saying just using range addons is sadistic?
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I think there is a blurring of the lines between gameplay and actual toxicity.
Post game abuse, slurs, harassment, cheating are genuine toxicity.
A lot of what takes place in game is just gameplay. Yeah some of it is obnoxious and there are some tedious mechanics in DBD but it's just gameplay. It doesn't really equate to sadism.
There are some bad exploits and you could argue that going into a game with the intention of exploiting them is just bad gameplay. But again its still just gameplay, something for the devs to fix if its broken.
Its really not malicious or sadistic, I mean looping is exploiting the smaller survivor hitbox to waste killer's time is that sadistic or just gameplay? Its no different from leveraging strong perks/addons its gameplay. Defending a hook (aka camping) being gameplay. Efficient focus on objective (AKA gen rushing and tunneling) being gameplay. Flashlight clicking, yes I find it annoying but that's a me issue its just gameplay.
Personally I don't care for pvp, I play to recreate a horror movie experience. That means the nastier a killer is in game the better in my opinion. As for survivor the less obnoxious and more focused on escape over getting in the killer's face the better. This is how I like to play DBD no matter what role I'm playing.
Someone else not wanting to play like this with me does NOT make them a sadist purposefully trying to sabotage my fun.
People need to ask themselves are they upset because they encountered genuine toxicity, or are they upset because they just didn't get what they wanted from a game and are being big tantrum babies about it. Its often the latter.
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I do not decide to beat someone on hook based on whether they brought Dead Hard or not. I do not care, fam.
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I am not saying that, I am saying that because it's usually those Nurses that hit me and other teammates on hook, maybe some even know that the add-ons are bugged.
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So you're saying that add-on use allows you to infer someone's personality based on correlation with hook-hitting?
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Neither I do, I am mean only with sadistic killers/survivors.
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Range Nurses usually are not competitive/strong players, because those players do not use those add-ons because they know they are bugged and banned from competitive. There's a small chance usually that those who use range intentionally abuse of them because of the faster blink speed bug, and casually it's always those type of Nurses who hit me/others on hook.
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You're just making ######### up to validate your personal experience, hoss.
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None of this is new. It's part of the DBD initiation process. I have toxic survs to thank for my sadistic methods on this game and I relish in repaying all of them back in kind.
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I wouldn't say sadistic lol but I definitely understand want your saying, trolling has become more bad lately and I don't know why ,the games are the same gen rush until 1 gen is left then troll there hearts out then leave I mean it's so tiring and also wants up with the cheating lately I'm gotten so many game using hacks
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Yeah, I get hit on hook by killer, not for not using DH or DS, but for using.... object of obsession and flip flop...
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I have a life to live beyond gaming? LOL JK but there is no macroing on Playstation sorry about your PC.
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For real! Its that string of choice encounters with despicable survivors that made me the lore-accurate Pyramid Head player that I am today: speedrunning to put you on the hook, hit you off the hook and put you in a cage and then, knowing were the cage will spawn, head over there and hit you when someone releases you sub 2:30min. Bonus points if I get a DC out of it.
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Pretty much sums up my dbd, except i use Anna
Language warning.
But seems odd devs won't show mmr because it creates toxicity, but allow flash macros and tea bagging.
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Sadism on killer would be to slug someone and when he is juste about to die, hook him
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Exactly. I got him when he first came out, stopped playing him after P2, and just got back to him two months ago because I like surprise moris. That, and I like striking the sword down like Thor.
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(Human-) Toxicity has from what ive read no clear definition. If i would have to come up with a definition based on my perception i would say its negative behaviour that goes beyond whats social acceptable for a community. In connection to social interactive behaviour between humans i would say vaguely, its basically everything a person does out of the intent or apathic ignorance to cast negativity upon someone as main reason with no defendable second objective in the view of a community, or in short terms anti-social behaviour.
This can happen in real life through harassment of a person, but it can as well happen through f.e. griefing ingame even though argueable to a lower effect and degree. Just because our viewangle change from a bigger community to a smaller community the core definition of this behaviour doesnt change.
To dismiss something as "just" this or just that is questionable as a valid point of arguementation, you could as well argue how could anyone be potentially hurt through words, they are just words, its just talking, its just slurs, etc. This shortsight and ignorance is the reason why people ask afterwards of a school massacre how this could potentially happen, this is an extreme example but you get the point. With what we allow as a community we built our daily enviroment, the more negativity you allow and spread the more negativity you will face.
Gameplay wise it means you can escape it more easily then your school or workplace, your are not bound to this game. But is this positive for the game and the community of it, that unneccessary annoying behaviour with the goal to mentally exhaust the other players which adds nothing to the designed objective and neither include qualitive gameplay elements hurt the amount of players and the mood of the community as well as lowering the quality of gameplay?
You mentioned some gameplay elements and i will try to showcase why the community percieve some as clearly toxic and some others formost not at all (they are complained about but out of different reasons)
Looping, is a qualitive gameplay mechanic, it provides neutral interaction with certain counterplay option in most cases (balance is a different point) and chasing the killer is clearly stated as a survivor objective and gets rewarded. It also makes logical sense to have chasing in a horror game as gameplay element. Same goes for defending a hook, repairing gens, killing survivors, flashlight saves.
But what is the point of flashlight macros, teabagging, exploiting the lobby last second to switch items, cheating, etc? They are clearly not intentionally designed and neither rewarded and they are not a qualitive gameplay element that fits to a horror game - it even destroys the mood and atmosphere. These are not protectworthy alternative ways of gameplay, Its annoying behaviour that mentally exhaust players for no good reason.
And in the case of flashlight macros i will argue its even sadistic, people are concious about that they are hurting the hearing of another person when triggering it and know theres no counterplay beside a tactical disadvantage. Its hard to believe that any joy comes from triggering this macro, the joy lies in the dominance in form of a tactical advantage and to see the irritated reaction of the other player, potentially even the imagination how the person takes off the headset in pain. Try to take an alarm clock and go to a stranger you meet on the street hold it right against his ear and trigger it but dont come to me when you get punched it face, the place it happens is irrelevant, the definition wont change therefore.
So why is it bad to unneccessary annoy and mentally exhaust people through gameplay, because these people will play less, they will burn out faster and call it a day sooner. Others are seeking for revenge and an annoyance war between both sides takes place in which the meta tools for triggering annoyances are getting tested and expanded which means less qualitive gameplay. Bully Squads vs 4min Sluggers. It also effects new players when the developers try to create a hype and they get between the fronts, burn them out is even worse because they are not on the same addiction level as the veterans, they as well just quit if the gameplay is not qualitywise attractive. Theres a reason why they cant keep alot of the new players attracted through chapter hypes and i would argue this is also one of them.
Now i dont argue this topic because i expect a change from BHVR, they already stated that they are pro anti-social behaviour and sadistic traits and that they dont care if it bothers the community aslong as the impact in playercounts is not big enough. I just do it, to let people who care about this topic know that this is not an overreaction, but an rightfully ambitious request, to rise the standard of gameplay qualitiy to acceptable social norms, respectable.
Post edited by Impalpable on4 -
The core rationale of your argument is flawed though.
Beyond what is acceptable by a community. With that kind of thinking you can justify anything providing the majority want it.
Liking in game obnoxiousness to the extremes of something like school shootings in the same argument is exactly my point, the blurring of reality and fantasy.
Nothing in game in DBD can hurt you, not one thing. It’s a game.
The problem with the world now is everyone is offended by everything all the time. So much so that genuinely offensive things that a terrible get lost in the noise of all the irrelevant crap.
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"With that kind of thinking you can justify anything providing the majority want it."
In our society this is simply common behaviour culture and it regulate itself between humans and how our society judge what behaviour is social acceptable and it gets enforced by official and unspoken rules. We already had in human history cultures in which property was bound to body strength for example, so yes its subjective and individual for each culture and community but thankfully the human society developed beyond that with setting themselves more ambitious rules which established bigger and more stable communities on longsight.
Now in our modern society we can be thankfully more flexible, thoughtful and inclusive with what we establish as the rules, when people state something is 'toxic' my understanding is that they mean something goes beyond what they understand as social norms and its worth to think about it, to avoid unneccessary negativity which divides the community and lead to unpleasant situations.
The playerbase is the community of a multiplayer game and form a behaviour culture as well but other standard human behaviour like testing the boundaries in this case of the game design and exploiting it for an advantage will challenge this.
Now my point is, if something goes beyond what was original designed for the game, we should consider to regulate it. Is it good or neccessary for the game and the community or is it unneccessary and only causing negativity.
I think its the latter, we see constant complains on this forum about these topic, people stated that they and/or their friends quit this game for this behaviour culture. There are many more reasons some of which ive stated in my last comments already and i wont repeat therefore.
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With the arguementation of the blurring of reality and fantasy we arrive into the topic of metaphilosphy, neurology and psychology.
I could talk now that each human has an individual fantasy/imagination of this world and that your picture of this world is only a reproduction of what your body sensors are caring further to your brain and how it interprets it for you as well. "I think therefore i am" is probably the only self-provable reality that is outthere for you, everything else could be as well count as fantasy and be even potential illusions. I could as well argue that if you replace the information of your visual and sonical sensoric it could very well influence your psych and build a sort of reality for you. But this is a huge topic which i think is to large for this forum and i doubt that we both are informed enough to discuss it and arrive on an agreement any time soon here.
My core point against this is that you cant see mental and emotional damage and while your physical body isnt reachable ingame your mental state is. The reason why i mentioned school shooting is because it argues around the same point, (!not because of the size of the problem which i clearly mentioned) the usual arguement is instead of a "its only a game" it gets replaced by "its just talking" as barrier, physically your are safe, everything is fine - time has proven undenieable that these barriers dont filter out negativity which is your point.
The only point i see for your side here is that you can escape the behaviour culture of a game more easily, since your not bound to it but this is not a positive point that works towards why things should stay as they are in this game.
Your last point is that the size of these problems are smaller then some issues in real life, and i dont deny it but its a complete neutral point that adds nothing to the arguement. We dont say macro flashlights should change who you vote on election day. We are arguing on a forum of the developer of a game with the community about behaviour culture and why certain exploits and unneccessary gameplay elements are still in this game when they are only negative for the game and community.
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Nurse mains using an addon qualifies as sadistic?
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i think sadism is a normal trait but i MIGHT be wrong on that one
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I mean its a common trait in humans, humans often do it as childs out of curiosity to learn how other people react to this behaviour and adopt their own actions then depending on what they want to reach. Aslong humans can control their actions its perfectly acceptable to have it but its pretty much banned from our society because of how destructive and unhealthy it is for it. Its disrespect and intolerance of other people which splits the community therefore rightfully addressed as anti social trait. Its diagnosed as a mental illness if you cant properly control it enough to live in our society and extreme forms are even addressed through the official laws. So its normal in the sense that its common but its not normal acceptable behaviour in our community.
I didnt address this till now, but i agree here this is not sadistic. Even though i see a path how nurse with her addons could be described as unfair, people do use her to have an advantage in strength and to feel powerful, not because they want to hurt the well being of other players neccessarily from what i percieve. The core problem here for you to address is gameplay balance not wrong behaviour.
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Ugh god you are reading way to much into this. It’s a game about brutally murdering people in a homage to 80’s slasher flicks, it ain’t that deep.
If you are triggered by minor inconvenience in a fantasy world then you need help beyond a patch that changes gameplay.
You make the point the it’s not serious but then go on about emotional distress yadda yadda brought on by negative in game experience that flies in the face of established community norms laid down by society throughout history and modified by modern sensibilities.
Your thesis reads like a first year psych/sociology text book blurb, Points for mansplaining though but I’m no stranger to pompous academic BS, I’ve been doing the academic thing for a long time. Again it’s not that deep it’s only a computer game.
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I don't have much thoughts on this past people suck and people making excuses for toxicity are cowards.
I will say I don't understand BHVR's stance on it at all. They say "oh it's just part of the game" but they ban people on here and will take streamers cosmetics or fog whisper status for the slightest criticism.
It just seems very hypocritical to me.
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I used to think that survivors thought my matches as killer were boring, because they would just finish their gens and leave. Then I learned about proxy camping. Suddenly they started waving their flashlights and doing a weird dance that looked taxing on their knees. I then knew what I had to do to make sure survivors enjoyed their matches. I added in tunneling and face camping. They must love tunneling and face camping, because they would all start pointing at me, telling me to do it more. When I would do it more they started dancing. Bobbing up and down with glee. They even shined me with spotlights, their clicky clicks fueling me to face camp and tunnel more.
They have so much fun in my games that they refuse to leave even though they're inches away from freedom!
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If it happens multiple and multiple times after many games it's not personal experience, especially if you see such in others streamers' streams a lot of times. Not only Nurse btw, even Bubbas just hitting people on hook.
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What do you mean?
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You can definitely tell when someone wants to troll/juke in a funny way and when they are sadistic.
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Omg, finally someone that told exactly what I do as a Pyramid main when I see competitive survivors (I have to do that to win, sadly), especially when I see toxic survivors. I will definitely do the torment, hook, hit borrowed time to avoid locker DS, cage, go across the map, kill strat XD
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NO, I am not saying that, read what I wrote.
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Very very good analysis. Anyway the devs are aware of what happens at the higher levels, in the new post on deadbydaylight.com about the Dredge design, by what Patrick said, and what he even said in the past, and other developers, they know what are really really good dbd players. Hopefully the new Dredge after PTB will be good against really really good survivors.
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I can only speak from my own experience, but I noticed this tends to happen on lead up to a new chapter. Most folks tend to break abit before new content drops (ie Dredge comes out soon) so it's likely those that are still playing the game are the hardcore. The game tends to go back to normal when the content drops
This is just speculation though, Greetings from Shangri-la
Edit: Spelling, Dredge does NOT coke out...
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Pretty damn detailed
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