“Ds should deactivate in the endgame”
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how would it be a healthy change?
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They are absolutely not reliable enough to be called counters IMO. A counter to DS would be slugging a Survivor so another Survivor has to heal them while Killer goes for gens.
I disagree on 4-man escapes being near impossible without BT/DS. I've done it as a Survivor, I've had it done to me as Killer.
Also, I'm on board for Killer losing access to some perks when three Survivors die. Which perk allows the Killer to close/block the hatch?
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Ok so you are saying DS & BT needs to deactive in EGC. And killer can not close hatch anymore too. And they can not grab survivor when survivor try escape with hatch. Am i correct?
I disagree with both them btw. People should not be punishment for playing good.
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I asked you which perk lets the Killer block and close the Hatch. Because you said that some Killer perks should be disabled when three Survivors are dead (which I'd be fine with) and then said Killer should lose the ability to close/block the Hatch.
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NoED is one of the most complained about perks, an exclusively end game perk that can be taken out of the game before it ever activates as well as post-activation.
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As said above, the current version leads to killers thinking, that the best way to avoid endgame DS is to get rid of it asap. Aka tunneling. It would be healthy in that regard, that killers wouldn´t feel forced to trigger it early.
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But keeping DS the way it currently is, IS punishing killers for playing good. Double standard?
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It's refreshing to see that the universal consensus to avoiding end game DS is to tunnel/camp the person out of the game / eat DS early.
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I did not said any perk is lets killer block or close hatch. They can do this without perk, it is base-kit for them. I said if 3 survivors died, will this be fair if they lose this mechanic. They are no longer can block survivor to escape with hatch or they can not close it either. They need to catch survivor far from hatch.
The perk part was that. I said if killer has domination would you agree to make them lose some perks. So survivors would have chance to come back.
Both cases are unfair btw, punishes killer because they are winning. So why you wanna punish survivors while they are winning?
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No, it wouldn't be fair. You are suggesting a basekit nerf to Killers and a nerf to a Killer perk in exchange for nerfing a Survivor perk. How is that an equal exchange?
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Ok let's not punish those " good killers ". DS will deactive at EGC but it will work for both hook states now. Let's punish tunnellers more but those "good killers" will not get any punishment from this change.
Because survivors have not base mechanics, they are playing against tunnel and camp with perks. So that's why BHVR is nerfing survivor perks usually and they are nerfing killers when they thinks they have some unfair kits or addons.
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Yes, this. I fully support this. Well, almost. I think it needs to deactivate once the gates are powered, not just open. As long as one or more generators need to be done, DS can still be used, and it can be used on both hook states.
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That would be an insanely strong buff to DS. Kill rate would drop heavily.
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So who is making double standards now? You are nerfing fair perk but you are not punishing tunnellers.
We will not go to anywhere i guess, we have completely different opinions. Respectfully i will stop here.
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Then that would be fair
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Killer has already messed up pretty badly if it goes to that so basically ds deactivating would give killer second chance and well there is already noed, no way out, blood warden and rancor for that which is enough.
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Well I said a perk thats not activated at endgame, not a perk thats only activated at endgame.
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Current DS is stopping tunnelers. Double DS would be like going back to the old version, where DS was weaponized. I constantly see streamers get hit by DS, where you can see that they didn´t expect to get hit by it, simply because they were not tunneling. Now imagine double ones. DS is still meta, so there is really no need for a buff. However a slight nerf would be appropiate.
I wish you a nice evening. It was nice having a discussion with you. Even though, you ended it prematurely.
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How is the current DS stopping anyone from tunnelling?
As others have said in this very thread the best way to counter DS in the endgame is to get rid of it before that happens.
What happens to the player that manages to be chased for 5 gens while being tunneled by a Killer that has this philosophy of countering DS?
They somehow deserve to have one of their perks deactivated in the end game?
I hope you can understand how absurd that sounds.
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True
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It really shouldn't.
DS is fine as is.
Play around it in the endgame, slug and wait it out.
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All this feels like is a "us vs them" type topic. Either way it becomes unfair to some in a way, so just leave the perk as is? Killer main here and I don't mind ds during endgame, I get others point about it but as a killer you can choose to tunnel someone out of game if your losing gens fast, or bring an endgame build to wait the ds timer out. Heck blood warden could make that game hilarious.
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It really feels like satire.
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Honestly I think anyone who suggests it to deactivate is just clueless.
DS is fine as it is in it's current state.
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I generally think DS is fine and don’t actually think it should deactivate in EGC. That would be a weird, inconsistent, and kind of unfair behavior.
Where I think the problem exists is that when you’re in those lose-lose situations, it feels bad. It feels like you’re losing to a perk, not the survivor’s skill (see also: NOED). So is there a solution that leaves DS as a strong perk in EGC but doesn’t feel like a lose-lose for the killer? Is there a way to make it feel like it was the survivor outplaying you and not just “they had a perk”? I don’t know.
Maybe a Devour Hope-ish token system where they get DS tokens for accomplishing objectives that eventually activates the perk, and so if you get hit by it, you at least know they earned it through in-game actions so that wouldn’t feel as bad? That would probably need some buffs in exchange for a cost like that and probably isn’t a good idea anyway, but that’s kinda what I’m thinking in terms of “making it not feel bad/unfun.”
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I guess to compare DH and NOED, it feels bad to get downed by NOED. It feels unearned. But if I get downed by 3+ token DH, I don’t mind. It’s like “okay, they did the thing to get those tokens and protect the totem.” Even though both are instadowns, one feels fine to me and one feels annoying and unfun.
So how do we make that EGC DS feel less like NOED and more like DH?
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I don't think it should deactivate when then doors are touched. Remember, the main reason by far as to why the doors are 99ed in the first place is because of EGC. Which is a mechanic that is supposed to be there just to end the game - not to benefit either side.
Of course in reality EGC benefits killers as time is on their side. So nerfing DS in this way would indirectly buff endgame for killers because survivors would adapt and start opening gates instead of 99ing them so DS doesn't deactivate.
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I hope this thread and the responses are a good lesson for all killers who still cling to the futile concept of playing "fair"
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Oh i consider DS to be a high risk, high reward perk. You know, like Hex perks. That get cleansed 30 seconds into the match.
Btw. i was one of the people that said, that the best way to get rid of DS is to trigger it early. Which happens to avoid getting hit by it during endgame.
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This reminds me of the "killers shouldnt have X around a hook" topics.
Its quite interesting to always see more support by killers to defend survivor stuff than survivors who defend killer stuff.
I think arbitrarily nerfing DS for EGC wont be a good solution, It rather should be nuked for all situations or stay untouched. We should rather wait for the mass perk reworks.
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The neccessity of perks likle DS or BT comes purely because the developers choose bandaid solutions for their bad design decisions all over the place. If a camping or tunneling kill would yield the amount of BP they are worth in terms of skill or entertainment value such a kill would give the killer 1-5 BP, making it nearly impossible to advance and all those perks pointless.
Instead they put energy in things like ban police or timeouts for disconnects (no matter if due to THEIR programming errors or other reasons) and killers that can shoot through any obstacle and wallhack perks and addons all over the place.
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Because killers who don't want to tunnel survivors because they know how frustrating that can be, still get hit by the "anti-tunneling" perk in scenarios where there are no generators to patrol, the gates are open, and there's no logical reason to wander off to other points of the map that aren't the exit gates other than to just deliberately just give survivors room to make a save instead of leaving.
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Coincidentally, I feel similarly about anyone who suggests that the counter to DS is to directly play into it and that it's fine to get punished by DS when you intentionally try to play around it over the course of the game.
DS needs a bit more tweaking in its current state.
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Well, considering the state of the game, where they have done nothing regarding why DS gets brought in the first place, I.E. (Camping/Tunneling not being even remotely changed). I don't think nerfing DS is where we need to put the focus on.
You see it as "you have to eat DS" well what about those hundreds of survivors who have "eat a hook state" because someone decided they wanted to exploit a playstyle that doesn't punish them whatsoever?
I do agree DS needs tweaking, by that I mean more buffs since it clearly doesn't deter any killer from Camping and Tunneling.
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NOED should deactivate in the endgame… wait thats not right sorry. NOED shouldnt exist in the game.
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Do gens. Ez.
I think nerfing DS in the end game and buffing it in the not-end game is where we need to be.
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Tbh the game just needs less lose/lose scenarios, especially for killer. People get upset about this stuff because they get forced to make bad decisions in order to not make worse ones. It happens to both sides, but perks like DS and BT can create the scenario 4+ times per match alone.
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I don't think the game should be "do gens" so that the other side gets to have easy access to a kill.
That isn't what DBD should be about IMO.
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No, it's "do gens" to win and make the killer lose.
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