Creating Counterplay Against Camping
Camping has been quite a delicate topic in the community, with many survivors being against it, while many killers feeling its a valuable asset to their kit. Its definately a tricky subject with valid points from both sides, but I hope this solution could be implemented to overcome this issue!
Many players have voiced changes such as making Borrowed Time base kit, and while this is on the right track, I believe that perks such as BT is too impactful overall in a match, and having it as base kit would make an even staler meta. Thus, I want to provide a solution that supports 𝐜𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐩𝐥𝐚𝐲 and can feel fair to both sides.
How can you provide such a solution you ask? Well, the best way to support counterplay is by giving players the 𝐢𝐧𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 to act.
Firstly we must align a solution with how information is already shown in the game. Information in DBD is shown in two possible ways: 𝐢𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐬 on the left side of the screen (showing the survivors, hooks, powers/items, addons, whether someone is injured/hooked/downed, and even in the future it is teased to show the action a survivor is performing) OR through 𝐚𝐮𝐫𝐚𝐬 (giving exact or general locations of objectives/players through walls or Killer Instinct)
With this in mind, I'd firstly like to write off the latter, as while, for example, Kindred could be base kit, this would have adverse effects of making killers feel at an unfair advantage due to survivors getting free walls around a hook, which could be taken advantage of to completely remove any and all possible mindgames. Instead, we can take the idea of Kindred and align it with the former: 𝐢𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐬. When a killer is near a ~𝟏𝟐 𝐦𝐞𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐫𝐚𝐝𝐢𝐮𝐬 of a hooked survivor, the survivor's hook icon will change, thus giving keen survivors the information that a killer is nearby, and allowing them to counter it.
This very small change would allow for more fair/engaging matches that allow for survivors to adjust to camping, while not feeling unfair to killers. If a killer chooses to camp or pass near the hook, that information will be given, encouraging killers to stay further from the hooks. With this change, survivors will have the information to 𝐜𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐫 these strategies, providing a more engaging, fair, and fun experience for all players in the match.
Camping is unfair not because of its strength, but because we are not given the 𝐢𝐧𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 to provide fair and engaging counterplay.
Comments
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what about genrush? this is one of the causes of killers camping... if you want resolve camping, you have to resolve how fast gens will pop 1st (i bet that the numbers of players camping will be greatly reduced in that way)
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That just makes camping more profitable.
Killers will know survivors won't have time to pop 2-3 gens while the hooked survivor dies, and so camping could secure a 3k instead of a 2k.
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While gen rushing does exist, gen rushing by itself isn't the issue. How time consuming killer actions are is what causes gen rushing to be present. If killers didn't had so poor mobility, if killers didn't had to walk miles for a hook, if killers didn't have to waste so much time on chases, they'd be able to pressure the map, thus Gen Speed isn't really an issue.
What are the other 3 survivors supposed to do while killer is chasing someone else? Will they just stop doing gens? Why would they when there's nothing else important to deal with. The lack of diversity in things for survivors to do is what makes them focus solely on gens, and since killers waste so much time with their actions and progression they give survivors a free reign to do the only thing they need to do.
If you simply slow down gens then you're just making camping stronger cause killers can camp and still keep the gens for longer. That's very unfair and only promotes even more attempts to gen rush and even more camping.
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Nothing has to be done FIRST. All eventual measures would have to be taken simultaneously so as to not put one side at a disadvantage.
But we all know that bhvr is probably changing one thing to see the impact and then change something else accordingly.
And then comes the biggest problem with bhvr back to light again, their glacial pace at changing things.
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holy whataboutism
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You have a good idea but...
The thing with giving survivors information is that information is power. The more information a player has the more options they can think about and then there's less of a risk/reward and less of an element of suprise. This is a PvP game, the element of surprise needs to be present, otherwise someone will always have an advantage cause they have information and the others don't.
Giving to much information isn't always the best thing, if you're giving free info then there's no effort put forth into understanding anything. Game sense needs to exist and be exercised more instead of just giving free info.
If you give new players all the easy tools what do you think happens when experienced players get the exact same easy tools? They'll exploit those easy tools cause they have game sense.
Knowing if a killer is camping or patroling or just passed by is EXTREMELY valuable information and eliminates alot of killers options.
Instead of giving info on wether a killer is in proximity of hooked people. Wouldn't it be better if survivor icons reflected when someone's doing a gen or a boon or healing or whatever? If there's someone on a hook and both you and me are on a gen, a different gen, wouldn't it be better information if you knew i was in a gen or i let go of the gen to go or not for the save? Instead of giving info about the killer just give info about what each survivor is doing. Currently without perks only the hooked person can see what others do.
If me and you are survivors, then it'd be nice for each of us to understand what each other is doing if we are far away, if i'm in a totem then my icon changes to a dedicated icon to show you i'm doing a totem and if you're doing a gen then your icon changes to show that you're on a gen. This way you're giving free info to survivors but only about each other, wouldn't this help alot in understanding what each survivor is doing and who can go do what?
This would help SoloQ without affecting killer much. You guys get more info but that info doesn't stop the killer from doing his game.
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This is a whataboutism- Its covering a different issue and doesnt address camping- I hope for this change as well, and the game has ALREADY addressed this as a change to come in the future, but my post covers the issue of camping, an issue that plagues lower level lobbies, and makes the game monotonous and boring for both sides. It's a strategy, I'm not here to tell people how to play, but its one that should be given a small slap on the wrist of sorts by giving information. This information doesn't lose the killer the game, but helps survivors ACT on the situation, allowing counterplay and engaging play flourish despite the more monotonous circumstances.
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This is a whatabout- Its covering a different issue and doesnt address camping- I hope for this change as well, and the game has ALREADY addressed this as a change to come in the future, but my post covers the issue of camping, an issue that plagues lower level lobbies, and makes the game monotonous and boring for both sides. It's a strategy, I'm not here to tell people how to play, but its one that should be given a small slap on the wrist of sorts by giving information. This information doesn't lose the killer the game, but helps survivors ACT on the situation, allowing counterplay and engaging play flourish despite the more monotonous circumstances.
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Nothing can fix camping tbh
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Camping has counterplay, it's called teamwork. Camping saves can be made safely when coordinating with teammates and additional safety nets like perks aren't always necessary.
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Slowing gens down is a direct and unmitigable buff to camping, so no, you do not first slow down gens. These issues are inextricably linked and should be dealt with at the same time.
Don't utterly ruin the game on a feeble promise from 'killers' that 'they'll be good, I promise!'.
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just make gens faster when a killer is near the hook and no survivors are near.
this way it only really effects early game camping and end game remains uneffected
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Camping is usually an answer after the killer suffers 3 gens poping on the first chase, they have the feeling of "ok lets secure at least 1 kill".
Gen speed is fine (except for toolboxes+PT), chases are just too long because of Dead Hard.
After they nerd dead hard, chases will be shorter = killers won't need to camp = more fun and BP for everyone.
However camping have plenty of counterplay (keep doing gens or just use borrowed time), so I don't think is that strong if the survivors play smart (good luck with that specially in soloQ).
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More BP for hitting/hooking survivors, deduct points for every gen made.
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I feel like maybe they could add back in that protection that bt used to have but maybe give it to kindred or something so as to promote shared turbulance. Camping has definately gotten out of hand and it really kills the mood of the match i dont think my idea is that good but camping needs some sort of recourse so as to discourage its playstyle.
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My issue with the idea is that (to me) this just punishes the M1-Killers again but we’re all going to conveniently gloss over all the Killer Powers that can proxy camp the hooks while working around this hooked proximity.
Nurse, Spirit, Oni, Billy, Huntress, Demo, Hag, Legion, Blight, Twins…to a lesser extent Freddy, Onryo, Artist.
These Killers have Killer Powers with speed bonuses that could get you back to the hook very quickly, with teleportation abilities that can return to the hook quickly, or lethality from a distance. It’s not like every Killer stands next to hook while camping, only those who choose a hard M1 Killer. Most of them clear to booked area to give the illusion of safety and free points, just to speed/teleport back and punish the save.
Im just saying that I don’t think your small change to icons is honestly going to be impactful. If anything it’s just going to add to the false illusion of safety and lead to more successful proxy camping.
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As I’ve been saying for years, if you truly want to alleviate camping, just incentives/reward Killers for not doing it. All this work to punish Killers to not do ‘a bad thing’. Little tip, if you rub a dogs nose in his own feces and tell him he’s BAD, he’ll probably do it again but learn to hide it in your shoes. If you reward a dog with a treat when the go outside then they are more likely to notify the owner when they are ready to potty.
Nobody wants to reward Killers~
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I don't think devs are against it, some perks are designed for camping, agitation +iron grasp, basement perk, insidious... useless perks unless you camp. Facecamp bubba or facecamp in general don't seem to bother them it's a valid strategy apparently, dying on first hook is so fun, and staying in front of the hook is so skilled, peak gameplay tbh
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We already have counterplay against camping. If you want kindred, then equip the perk.
We also have the terror radius and vision.
If you are at the other side of the map, you don’t deserve to know what’s happening. It’s whole point of immersion in a horror game.
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Kindred.
Doing gens.
Not standing like a moron in killers sight and letting him know that you aren't doing anything so he's strategy works.
There you go, you have enough time to do all the gens and open gates if killer really camps (You do, do the math).
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Define 'near', though. Because if the killer can just stand on the edge of that area, they could circumvent the countermeasure without giving up camping.
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They could also just have a pyramid head style mechanic where the hook moves, etc. but I think the killer should be allowed to camp/tunnel, etc if they choose to. it just shouldn't be so rewarding for the killer
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This would be a good idea for a survivor perk if you ask me. Similar to Deliverance, you use an escape attempt to move to another hook. Providing it comes with a decent cost like unhooking another survivor prior, and consuming all 3 unhook attempts in one go, or something.
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only if I can stack it with deliverance to unhook myself and move to a different hook at the same time lol
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The cost would be taking up a perk slot for a very situational perk. No need to add a couple dozen more drawbacks to it.
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No that would be OP :P
But it would allow another survivor to easily rescue you.
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it loses the killer the match because you have information that he is camping, if his strategy gets automatically destroyed by the game then that's that, it's no longer a strategy.
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Like every other situational perk then?
Deliverance already has a cost to it, because of how powerful it is, the drawback is you need to have the killer leave the hook to use it.
This would arguably be even more powerful than Deliverance.
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Unless you're well co-ordinated, Deliverance is a trash perk. The perk you're suggesting would be directly worse than Deliverance, since it doesn't actually do anything for you, in and of itself. If you then heap on additional costs, it's just going to be an unfeasible pick despite supposedly being a counter only to a specific tactic.
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Teleporting closer to a survivor and further from a killer, is significantly better than Deliverance. You get a free hook rescue and no chance of being tunnelled off the hook.
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You didn't specify that it would be closer to another survivor, you just said 'another hook'.
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You would use it when camped. That automatically means the killer won't be at the hook you teleport to, and chances are another survivor will be closer. Could even make it guaranteed to be further than 40m away or something, increasing the odds even further.
Just as situational as Unbreakable, etc. only used when slugged.
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It'd suffer from the same problem as Deliverance though, where if your teammates are actively trying to rescue you, this perk wastes their time. And if you teleport off to another hook, they still have to get to you. What if you teleport to the other side of the map and no one can get to you before you lose a hook state?
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You can see your team mates when you're hooked, you'll be able to make that call.
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With BHVR not buffing Camaraderie/Kinship in the Perk Overhaul, I'd really, really hope they have some plans in the future. You can't tell me basement Bubba, facecamping at 5 gens, etc. is healthy. The answer to facecamping MUST account for EGC, however.
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Like the fact that they're making changes to basically all good killer slowdown perks is an indication that they're also changing base repair or regression, the fact that they are making changes to both BT and DS, yet are not touching the much weaker Kinship, suggests that there could be base changes to unhooking mechanics. So the fact that there's no changes to Kinship should be promising for the effectiveness of that perk, with BT and DS getting relative nerfs in exchange for basekit buffs, Kinship could be more worthwhile.
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I like your thought process here but gen slowdown and second chance nerfs / basekit implementations doesn't begin to address facecamping's effectiveness. It's a fundamental issue of the game that indirect buffs won't change for Camaraderie/Kinship.
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Yes, but that makes it -more- situational, making it weaker overall.
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Believe it or not, Killers don´t quite want to camp. It´s just a strategy that has been forced. With enough time to chase people Killers would risk to go for more hooks.
You just need to understand that if you don´t give room to Killers first, no one is going to give Survivors any room because it´s 16 perks 4vs1 and voice comms in most matches.
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I can't tell you how many killers either queue into the game with the main strat to facecamp, or decide to throw the game away and facecamp before a single gen has popped. Very relative statement that killer's hands are forced.
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There are plenty of killers who absolutely love to camp regardless of how effective it is. Otherwise nobody would play Bubba.
Also killers will always feel the game is survivor sided, and vice versa. DBD players love victim complexes. If camping could secure an even better lead than it currently does, they're not going to pass up that chance.
Anyone who doesn't want to camp, won't camp. I don't, I just play high mobility killers instead. (although proxy camping as Ghosty for a stealth expose is hella fun)
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I am one of these that purchased Bubba years ago - when you had even more obvious infinite loops - just cause flashlights were (are) a total abuse.
Survivors used that complete WHITE blind flashlight that blinded you in real life and went for the rescue every single pick... If they did not abuse that so much (I was a new player) I wouldn´t have felt inclined to hard camp. It was the only way. In times with infinite loops and people healing in front of you after dropping a pallet...
I don´t camp as much now that there are more powerful Killers other than the default M1 base, still having a Killer that goes blind as his ability is ######### ridiculous... these nerfs and forced handicaps ruin the game when you are giving the side with 16 perks AoE such as Boons.
The long story short is: without map pressure and ability to win a loop all you can do is camp and run late game killers, the strategy is clear: grab one early, hard camp, then abuse altruism or use exposed mechanics later if you can. The result is going to be the same, 1 kill or two, or maybe none... but without the pain of looping a rock while gens get done and the final t-bagging.
M1 Killers => hard camp, proxy camp are the best strategies, even more so with the changes to Corrupt Intervention.
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