You hide MMR because you have something to hide
Please give us honesty. Show us MMR if we want to see MMR values. Let us see the MMR of everyone in the game after the game is over.
For what purpose do you hide MMR?
- Is it so you can pull hidden strings? If so then this is exactly what we suspect. My guess is that MMR is not displayed because people would be upset if they saw the types of games the matchmaker gives them.
-Is it to protect feelings? If so then let players hide MMR so they can remain ignorant.
Comments
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Could those numbers that we saw yesterday in the prestige teaser be the MMR levels?? Idk if you saw that.
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Most games do, for a few reasons.
- People get really elitist. Show it pregame, and it's wall to wall lobby shopping. Show it on the forums and it's 'well your opinion doesn't matter because you're at a pitiful 950 and I'm at 965'. I have no issues with showing it postgame.
- It allows savvy people to learn how to manipulate the system.
I have no issue with showing it postgame, but it's probably just not a priority.
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Those nurmbers are simply your prestige levels.
I don't think they have plans to show us MMR for the future.
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Notice how you don't see any outrage from streamers about hidden MMR
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They hide MMR because hiding MMR is the default expectation.
You only show MMR in games or modes where you have a competitive ladder. This game doesn't, so seeing your MMR would be completely pointless and would probably have more negative consequences than positive ones.
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I always advocate for giving us a weekend WITHOUT MMR. If the system leads to better games, people can finally see how aweful it would be without MMR. And thats what you want to advocate. If it only were the other way around I could understand, why you would not wanna do this.
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no.. Nobody would dismiss someone that close to them. That kind of attitude is shown to people at say 100 vs people at 1200 because the person at 100 literally has zero idea what they are talking about and it is the correct reaction to just dumpster anything they say.
New peoples opinions on balance factually do not matter.
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i have the feeling that showing it has no purpose. people will only get more elitist and mad at the people that decide to not show it.
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You're giving an excellent example of the kind of attitude that showing MMR would foster, and that sensible people would want to avoid.
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Explain how my day one opinion on balance should be taken seriously then? Do we need to nerf wraith again?
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I mean, yeah, obviously. They were tired of people complaining about their rank matchmaking not working, so they hide the matchmaking metrics now. Like, that was pretty much their stated reason for doing it, rather than actually fixing the matchmaking.
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And...?
I've heard Otz say a few times that he wouldn't mind seeing it.
We essentially had this during the SBMM tests, for two days (it was GBMM).
Complete and utter chaos, that saw me as a survivor with maybe 100 hours of experience thrown into a game with a 500 hour player and two players with 3000+ hours a piece, against a 2500 hour Nurse.
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MMR caps at 1700 and starts to mix people. If you could see your mmr then people probably would be on here complaining because they would get a backfilled 3200 mmr SWF against their newly reached 1700 mmr killer.
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SBMM is way better than RBMM.
They hid grades because people got confused.
I'm not exactly sure what people would get out of seeing their MMR aside from bragging rights - MMR isn't a reward, it's a system to help you get more even games. And while you definitely still get the occasional stinker, it's a substantial improvement over how ranks worked.
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I'd like a way to see it that doesn't break ToS. I understand their reasoning for hiding it, but I disagree with some of it.
Showing exact ratings would lead to a lot of confusion. The playerbase is not going to understand a matchmaking algorithm. They're already on record stating multiple times that a very small percentage of players are above the cap, and most players on these forums seem to think they're above the cap. That's statistically improbable to say the least.
It could lead to elitism relative to MMR, but we already have that with everyone's imagined numbers. Many people pull the "high MMR" card in any discussion. So on one hand it could lead to elitism, but it could show people the light on the other hand.
Overall though, it's not a priority because the devs aren't balancing solely relative to MMR. Nothing about their map design gives any indication that they consider soft cap survivor play when balancing maps. They get to a certain point and stop tuning them, but a lot of tiles still need to be rotated 90 degrees and whatnot to prevent chaining. We still have long wall jungle gyms with the windows facing L/T walls and pallets next to shack window.
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I don't mind seeing it during the endgame screen after the match. But before the match? No. And I would like to see my own MMR level when I'm in the menus.
Game is already doing that. But if we could see our MMR's during the endgame screen, that would give us the idea WHY we lost/won so easily. And the fact is, BHVR doesn't want us to see it, because then players would have a solid proof to call them out on it, that it doesn't work.
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"New peoples opinions on balance factually do not matter." - This attitude is "correct" but out of line. The way you present the argument is as if we should dismiss the experiences of new players. Game balance MUST consider high/medium/low MMR. Imagine if all killers had a high floor skill ceiling required to play like nurse. Would anyone bother?
The MMR sucks. Almost everyone hates it. But there is a part of it we can't "touch" exactly because the numbers are hidden to us. Why do they hide the numbers? Because they don't want to give us transparency. In my experience refusing to give transparency means you have something to hide. Overall the DBD devs are kind of "light and fluffy"; mind you I mean this in a positive way and I don't mean this as an insult.
I want to point out that the statistics we get for DBD are awful. Bad statistic analysis gives bad data that leads to false conclusions. Look at the nurse : the stats show she is the worst killer and clearly needs buffs. HAH!
There is no world in which a 1700 player should go agains a 3200 player - be it chess, dodgeball or DBD. If there are people with stupid high win rates then maybe we should look at why they have stupid high win rates. If it's a 4 man SWF then maybe we need to consider nerfing SWF : do not allow perk/item repeats. If It's a 3200 rating killer then nurse the Blight/Nurse. What - did you think they were playing Pig? No.
The reason 3200 players match against 1700 rating players is because there aren't enough 3200 players. Well too bad. You should not get to stomp on 1700 rating players. There should be a gap that says : this is too much and you will just have to wait.
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I don't care about how many hours you have in the game, or your MMR number. What I care about is the validity of the thing that you're saying, which could be completely accurate even if you picked up the game yesterday.
The ability to analyse a game, or provide feedback on balance, is not inherently tied to hourcount or personal mechanical skill. If we consider a player with 10 hours and a player with 1000 hours, but the player with 10 hours has spent years analysing and critiquing various different games and the player with 1000 hours has no interest in looking at any game critically, I'm not going to discard the first player's opinion out of hand just because their completely arbitrary (to this discussion) number is lower.
All that, and, the attitude that it fosters is still negative. Even if newer/less skilled players have nothing of value to add to a discussion, it is still a bad thing to have a community where they're just told to stfu out of hand in such a belittling tone.
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One of the reasons it is hidden is because people were abusing it's predecessor by knowing their ranking. You can at least in some way thank those who were abusing the old system for the new one.
I have also heard though I'm not completely sure on it's validity it is now a algorithm that runs when when setting up matches and not a single value which technically may make it harder to display. Game has been much better since they introduced MMR.
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they may show not exact number but only by marking certain points such as above average and very high.
this is actually frustrating not seeing anything including ranks. At the beggining of season especialy on the first days after reset you at least could understand why you lost so badly if you see 1-3 rank. You understand those are good players. Now you can only guess.
idk not showing even ranks drained from game sort of satisfaction. it is always interesting to know who your opponents are. I still chek hours after each game anyway. So DBD system that based on hide is kind of lame because you might chek player`s hours anyway
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You've clearly never been on a videogame forum before. I used to play a lot of Starcraft 2 and it was literally 'lul you think Terran overpowered, get to my level and you'll see they are weak' from Diamond 3 players to Diamond 2 players.
Secondly - new people's impressions of the game are absolutely vital. If a killer is absolutely rampaging through lowbies, then that's cause for alarm - because those are the people that, a year, could be faithful veterans, and if their experience is miserable you'll lose them.
Of course you can't balance entirely around low MMR (see: Wraith) but it has to be a consideration.
I'd love to be able to see my own.
Outside of that - I don't care at all.
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Theyre hiding MMR so we can’t see that it’s not working.
All I know is that in all my soloQ matches there’s guaranteed minimum 2 terrible players and I’m so done with it.
It doesn’t matter how many matches I escaped before, I’m always getting matched with clowns.
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I'll play devil's advocate here. It also could be argued the opinion of those who play this game the best (the mythical top 1% high MMR whatever) also do not count, as they don't balance the game around the best play.
I don't personally believe this myself.
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I say just show it.
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The only reason it’s hidden is because if it was shown, it would reveal what we all know already. Most of the time, the system doesn’t work and you’ll just get matched with the next killer/survivor group in line (which is done to keep queue times down).
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They hide MMR because
- Online gaming has neckbeard elitists who segregate feedback to the game based off rank points, and create an unhealthy environment. In this already unhealthy one, it would be even worse.
- People would set goals to lower theirs even more so to dunk on new players so they can feed their disgusting superiority complexes (which btw is a HUGELY unattractive trait to have and can make someone an extremely toxic as a person)
- The game is not ranked.
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I mean the fact of having an mmr system in the first place essentially throws out the whole it’s just a casual game and not competitive right off the bat. You don’t put an mmr system into a casual game. Any game with an mmr system the default expectation would be to have the mmr shown or a rank that essentially correlates with your mmr. Not really arguing whether the game should or should not be a “competitive game” just that the devs have already essentially made that decision themselves by putting an mmr system in.
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Short version: No, they haven't.
Longer version: You're conflating "MMR" with "ranked mode". They're not the same thing- games that have a ranked mode will show you your MMR in that mode, and they will not show you your MMR in the casual/quick play mode. What makes a mode a "ranked mode" is not the existence of MMR, because that same concept is used in the quick play mode, and we do not have a ranked mode in DBD.
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The only rational and legitimate reason to have it hidden is because it doesn’t work well and we can’t call them out on it if it doesn’t. Essentially how we were able to point the problems out before when it showed rank. Any game with an mmr system the default expectation would be to show the mmr or a rank equivalence. The only games you don’t show it are casual games..but you don’t put an mmr system into a casual game..hence I find it difficult to argue it’s a casual game. Until they stop putting anything other than mmr/rank into the post game lobby they are going to continue to confuse new/casual players.
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Just show us the hot darn MMR score. so we know who we lost against. what score that dwight had who did nothing in the game. and the nea who was looping the killer... it's not reall y that hard. you don't even had to give us super concrete numbers, give us visuals that indicate the rank. i don't care. give us something
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I'm not conflating the two.
That same concept is not used in quick play mode.
The only difference between "ranked mode" and "mmr" is not simply whether it's shown in lobby or not, that's just silly.
A quick play mode doesn't use balance metrics, it's simply getting you into a game as fast as possible. This is not what we currently have.
A ranked mode is matching you with a balance of speed and skill level (mmr).
As long as we have MMR we are essentially playing a "ranked mode" whether it's called that or not. DBD is not currently a quick play game.
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Multiplayer games with MMR systems usually have ranked and casual modes. They show it in the former and hide it in the latter but MMR is still used for matchmaking in both.
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A quick play mode in most instances will still use an MMR. I don't know exactly what the difference is as I don't work in game development, but I'd imagine the matching criteria is looser for a quick play mode.
The other differences are that a ranked mode will often be barred from newer players, it'll have different + stricter rules than the quick play mode, and it'll have seasons that reset its associated ladder, among other things.
We do actually just have a quick play mode right now.
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No multiplayer games I've ever played do a casual mode with MMR for matchmaking. That makes no rational sense and defeats the entire point of casual. Casual is for the fastest queue time possible and to just get into a match, not to coddle feelings by hiding information. Even from a concept point that just sounds silly.
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This is a joke right?
its dbd not watergate. Lol
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I completely disagree. We are absolutely not a quick play mode right now. If it was the matchmaking would be all over the place and we wouldn't have nearly the frustrations of high mmr game play as we currently do. We simply do not agree on the basis of what constitutes a quick play mode so we're just not going to agree.
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Of the ones I've played, smite does and R6S does, I'm pretty sure others do so as well.
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Overwatch does too, not completely certain for any other game but I'd be willing to bet its most.
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Idd be fine if people could see their MMR, privately.
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I have no problem with not openly displaying MMR. Skill is such a difficult thing to quantify in DBD, and people don't need another marker to hold against each other and assign blame for losing. If they did display MMR scores, people would just start accusing others of gaming the system to earn that score, using that as an excuse to point the finger. It would just be on to the next thing.
There's never going to be an end to it, because many people will never accept any responsibility for their own gameplay.
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This. Honestly I just want to know how bad I actually am with concrete data. Is that so bad? I’m not going to cry BHVR I promise.
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But then you get what we have now in DBD because they do listen to new players. A severely neutered cast of killers with only one or two viable options for veterans and a miserable experience for all but low to mid where people are still learning what the space bar does.
We have the reverse where new players stay, spend money, get good, get bored because end game is so simple or impossible then quit.
There is a rise in nerf Nurse threads because SBMM is showing people how bad the other killers are when it shoves them against equally or better skilled survivors and they are giving up and playing the only viable options.
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Huh?
'Only one or two viable options'...no.
There are 2 S+ killers, but that's not 'viable'. Nurse has a kit that scales infinitely with skill, Blight has...honestly pretty OP addons, to the point that several need reigning in.
Beyond this, you have the S and A tiers. Huntress, Plague, Oni, Spirit, Artist, Hag, Twins. One of which you'll as much of as Nurse, two that you'll see plenty of on high MMR streams doing well, and four that are extremely powerful but just rare due to their idiosyncratic kids (but still absolutely viable at even the highest MMRs).
Below this, you have the 'B' tier, all of which can definitely be viable with sufficient skill, good perks and addons. Demo, Cenobite, Billy and Bubba immediately come to mind.
There are plenty of viable killers, which is not to say that there aren't also killers that need some help, and that a lot of killers wouldn't benefit from some tweaks.
That said - DbD has probably peaked. It's not a young game anymore. It'll keep going for a good long while, but short of another massive franchise killer released at the same time as a big event, you aren't going to see 100k again.
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Nice joke. You forgot the /s at the end.
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Just to be clear. I'm not saying you can't win on these killers. But it wasn't because of anything YOU did., It wasn't your skill.
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Ah no hunt has visible mmr and it is not a competitive game. Mmr can be switched invisible for any user in hunt so steamers, players can play without it being in there face. Those who want to know what there in for have a right to know what there mmr is at so they dont waltz into a higher tier game with the crapper,clown etc.
The argument that it makes the experiance awful is absolute nonesense since in games like hunt despite having clearly powerful meta weapons the community is encouraged to experment.
Many do cool stylish things like incendiary ammo, melee builds or go for derringer kills. Dbd once had a community of actual brewers with weird builds and fun ideas but because behaviour neglected to add basekit changes to the game as gameplay was evolving more and more players turned to using slowdown perks, anti tunnel perks to cover up the games flaws.
The devs needs to stop being cowards and make some basekit changes to encourage brewing. Because players gimping themselves by losing access to key gameplay perks isnt good for the game. Mmr should be visible so people can brace themselves for a rougher game.
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You're being ridiculous.
I watch a good few streamers, and I see as many Huntresses kicking butt as I do Blights and Nurses. I've even seen Huntresses do brilliantly in tourney play. Artist is another killer that can be nigh unstoppable in the hands of a good player.
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I can't speak to Hunt since I've not played it, but one exception doesn't really disprove that the default expectation is that your MMR is going to be hidden outside of ranked modes.
Again, I'm not even necessarily against showing MMR, I just want to make sure it's clear that it being hidden right now isn't weird, it's completely normal.
Your arguments are not really great proof that it should be shown, though. What do you mean by "not waltz into a high MMR game with trapper or clown"? How would they avoid high MMR games if they're at a high MMR? Even if the matchmaking were broken enough that they could just lobby dodge until they got lower numbers, all that means is that showing MMR has increased lobby dodging and therefore made wait times between matches worse.
As for it making the experience worse, that is not a point that is up for debate. It will lead to the kind of toxicity people have talked about, that cannot be denied-- the question is if that's enough of a downside to deter showing MMR, not whether it'd happen at all.
Agreed on your last point, and it's a great sign that they're starting to do that now.
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yes, range killers being used by people that live on them like coconutrts (obvious streamer you refer to) and artist who can shoot through everything. What about the other m1 and nerfed trash?
huntress is map dependant.
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So yes, Huntress, Artist...there we have two more 'viable' killers, even by your ever-shifting goalposts. You can go watch Ayrun and co. to see how lethal a good Plague, Hag, Oni and Pyramid Head can be too (one of the best survivors in the world, and he sometimes get shattered by these killers). Hell, even a cracked Billy can do good work at the MMR cap.
Nurse and Blight can also be map dependent. Lery's, for example, can be absurdly bad for Nurse due to how the doodads mess up her teleports and both Swamp and Eyrie can be very tough for Blight due to the inconsistent hitboxes and collision.
Don't whatabout. You said that only two killers were viable. I already said that, yes, there are also killers that need buffs - but that's not what we were talking about.
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