We reduced the grind!! (except we kinda didn't)
So BHVR has announced their new reworked perk and BP system, claiming that at long last they have cut down on the grind. How wonderful! But I do have one question: who has it cut down the grind for? Cuz from what I can tell, most players will actually suffer from this new system, as long as you're striving to have complete builds. An example:
Lets say I'm John Q Newplayer, and I just installed DBD. I really like anime, want to flex that I know what the word "kanabo" means, and would like the katana I bought at my local strip mall to feel like it was worth the purchase, so I want to pick up Oni! But I want to have the option to play any way I want, so I want all of the perks on him. How hard will it be for me to do that?
Well under the old perk system, it was a heck of a feat. I had to get every killer, level up to level 40 on each one. Then take my boi Oni, and just keep leveling him until I had all perks. With the current system, that means I have to buy every perk 3 times to get the max level. Since there are 97 perks including the generics, I need to buy 291 perks. But! After level 40, I can get two perks per bloodweb, doubling my progress. So after 39 levels I have 42 perks (you get your 3 t1 perks for free), which means I have 249 to go, which I can do in 125 bloodwebs. So my final level count to unlock all of this is:
40 levels on each of the 28 killers, which is 1120. Add the 39 and 125, and you get 1284 levels. Dang, that's a grind! Now lets see how much the new system reduces it!
Now, teachables are gone, and everything is dictated by prestige. Heck yeah! So if I want all perks on my boi Oni, all I have to do is get P3 on every killer, then get the 15 levels to unlock Oni's 4 perk slots, and I'm in business. Math is pretty easy on this one, just get every single killer to P3 level 1, which is essentially level 150. So 28*150+15 equals...
4215. Thats....a lot. Way way more than 1284.
"But KnotEnthusiast!", I hear you cry, "When you get all perks on one killer, you get them on everyone!" And that is true! But all you have to do to get all perks on every killer is the 126 bloodwebs (because you got them all to level 40 for the teachable, but buying the 2 teachables cost you two perks). So if you keep doing that, then you can get all perks on 23 killers before you even get close to the same number of levels as getting all perks in the new system:
1284+126*23 = 4182 levels.
But hey, at least that's something, right? While it might be worse at first, after 24 killers you're making profit! And there's also an argument to be made that the bloodwebs from levels 1-30 are significantly less expensive than those at 50 up, reducing the effect a good bit. But there's one issue:
BBQ AND CHILI'S BONUS IS GONE.
Because of the "reduced" grind, the BP bonus from BBQ is gone. So if you were someone who ran the perk frequently (IE, literally everyone), then congrats, your BP gain has effectively halved. So all of the levels required in the new system are essentially doubled, making the total even more ridiculous. Not to mention that addons, items and offerings now essentially double in price for the same reason.
Another example: a vet player with all perks unlocked, when a new killer comes out. If you want their teachables on another killer, then you need to level them up 150 times. Whereas beforehand, it was 40 times, then whatever killer you wanted their teachables on either 5 or 6 times depending on entity RNG. So again, worse case scenario you can get the new perks on 18 killers (40+6*18 = 108) before you start reducing the grind at all, not factoring in the BBQ bonus loss.
I hope I'm missing something, because honestly this new system with the loss of the BBQ/WGLF bonus feels worse than the prior system. Plus you can no longer level one killer/survivor completely then use them to grind, you have to do everyone at once.
TL;DR: The "grind" has barely improved if at all based on the perk rework, and if you factor in the loss of BBQ or WGLF, then it has actually gotten worse.
Comments
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I also like how they removed the BP bonus from BBQ and WGLF, but only WGLF got a buff to compensate. Hey, how about some P A R I T Y
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Have you thought about prestiging everyone once, then prestiging the characters whose perks you really want up to three, and then just grabbing the rest of the perks as you go about it?
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I just recommend you save alot of flans because bbq is gone. I'm hoarding them at this point
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There's a critical error in your presentation here - while all perks on one killer is a pretty comparable figure between the current system and the upcoming changed system - all perks all killers with the current system, using your math, is 29,532 webs. The grind is functionally isolated to each killer because the prestiges do not advance your progress with each killer.
When you actually factor for the amount of bloodwebs you no longer need to clear because you have all teachables at tier 3 automatically, thanks to a full cast of P3 killers, the picture looks much fairer. You should probably present that as your side-by-side.
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Where on earth are you getting 29k webs? To get all perks on all killers is 40*28+126*28, which is 4648 levels.
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WGLF was absolutely trash outside of the BP booster. BBQ & Chili was quite valuable outside the BP booster. Scrap the BP boosters, and only one perk will have a pickrate above 0%.
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Are teachables even gone? It was my understanding that you can still get those from a killer at level 40 and find them in the bloodweb on other killers normally, but you now also have the option of unlocking them on everyone via prestige (I do think it's funny that the guy in the anniversary broadcast used BBQ as an example of a perk we might want to use this system to unlock).
In any case, prestige will be much less painful now that you don't lose everything upon going past level 50.
It was also my understanding that (and they haven't revealed the details of this) if you've already unlocked enough perks on a killer or something, you'll be automatically awarded with prestige levels when the update takes effect, so some killers that I've invested a lot into already might immediately P3 (and then I'd just have to get to P6 to get all of their bloody cosmetics).
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I 100% agree that this change is only making the grind worse. They’re basically offering you a bundle and saying it’s 75% better value while simultaneously doubleing the price of things you actually want.
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I thought unlocking the teachables would still be possible the same way as before but now you have the additional option to unlock them directly with prestige on other characters?
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This reduces the grind because you don't need to grind out 200 levels in order to find that one perk you want.
You just get the killer whose perk it is to 50 (P1 not P3) and it will not only be unlocked at tier 1 but also be available in the bloodweb of the killer you want it on. Who will only need to grind a couple of bloodwebs to get the tier 2 and 3 versions.
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Yeah, correction required. If your goal is to have all perks on a specific killer (let's go with Oni), previously you would have to level every other killer to 40, then buy 288 perk tiers on Oni. Now, the fastest way is to level every other killer to 50 (takes longer), prestige them once, then only buy 194 perk tiers on Oni. However, I will admit, with BBQ nerfed, the grind is higher than before.
However, that's for maxing the killer. If you only want four specific perks (even in the worst case scenario that they're all teachable perks, and they all come from different killers that aren't Oni): you level four killers to 50, then buy at most 96 perk tiers (3 times 16 global perks, plus 2 times the 12 perks belonging to 4 killers) assuming the specific perks you want get offered dead last. You'll be done before you even reach prestige 2.
I don't think it's the first case is a problem though. The grind you're suggesting, if done correctly (the way I'm suggesting) is still very small compared to the theoretical grind of wanting all perks all killers. And the problem with all perks all killers has always been that it increases at an exponential rate with each chapter update. Used to be you need 90 perks on 26 killers, then 93 perks on 27 killers, then 97 perks on 28 killers. That's how it got to the point where devs claim you'd need to play 4 hours every day just to keep up with new releases, and that's assuming you were already done before the chapter release.
And anyway, I don't personally mind that "we reduced the grind" doesn't mean "you can max a fresh account in two months"
Edit: and don't forget matchmaking incentives. Killer queues are most of the time longer than survivor ones, so chances are you're not entirely losing the BP from BBQ
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There's one huge point you're missing with the new system: Once you've prestiged for the first time, a character's teachables are instantly unlocked at tier 1 and tiers 2 & 3 can be found in the bloodweb.
So in this hypothetical scenario where you're starting from scratch and only care about getting all perks on your Oni, you actually don't need to prestige all the others three times. You can prestige once with them and go right back to leveling up your Oni (even giving his Tier 3 perks to every other Killer in the process).
So the numbers would actually look like this:
27 * 50 = 1350 (levels to P1 all other Killers)
(84 * 2) + 39 = 207 (perk tiers to be found on your Oni)
40 of the bloodwebs will be between levels 40-50 and feature two perks.
So all in all, you'd need: 1350 + 207 - 40 = 1517 levels, the majority of which are smaller levels and not full sized level 50 ones, to get all the perks on your Oni.
And should you ever decide that Oni's not your cup of tea anymore and start working on your other Killers, you've only done an extra 57 Bloodwebs, so you haven't wasted a ton of time. The numbers very quickly start to turn in your favor after the first Killer.
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The hybrid system does end up making things more efficient, I'll concede. But it still doesn't feel like nearly as much of a grind reduction to justify the loss of the BP modifying perks, especially when considering the related effect of making add-ons and offerings effectively more expensive.
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There's also the queue incentives depending on which side is in more demand. You could think of that as replacing BBQ/WGLF bonuses.
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In addition to what Peanits said, they've also changed the Shrine of Secrets to effectively work alongside your progress allowing you to unlock and use any perk at Tier 1 without ever having to prestige a killer (and even Tier 2 and 3 if you wish)
Whilst I think the double BP bonus should be made basekit in some form via gameplay without a perk (because I think even with the massive reduction in grind, earning bloodpoints just feels less satisfying without it, but that's a separate point), they've absolutely reduced the grind with this change compared to the old system, even for newer players.
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WGLF had only BP for 5 years, BBQ had aura reading, then BBQ got BP too for parity, WGLF didnt recieve an additional effect. Now WGLF doesnt really do anything other than amplify its use, you HAVE to tank a hit AND pick someone up for the endurance effect to be possible, BBQ's effect is strong enough to be standalone.
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I don't get why they're basically nerfing BP gain with the BBQ/WGLF changes. This is just shuffling the grind around. Perks are easier to acquire but now the add on economy is even worse.
Killers have way too much add on variance to just say "run what you have". A lot of killers only have 3 or 4 useful add ons for high level play. The effective cost of a green add-on is 20-30k at times when its alternatives are throw picks. And I can't choose to not buy bad-ons or map offerings. I'm forced to buy them to get to the useful thing. A green Nurse recharge add-on can cost 30k if I'm forced to buy some useless purples and a Lery's offering that no sane Nurse would play just to get the recharge add on. And now BBQ BP bonus is gone. Why? Just let me buy what I want.
I don't think the devs quite understand how BP-expensive it is to play killer at a high level. I only run recharge on Nurse and every game probably costs me 30-50k BP
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That's actually a good point I hadn't considered. Survivors get to keep reusing their items (if they escape) and get free items from chests (sometimes with addons loaded onto them as well). Killers have no method of getting free addons, and their addons are always lost (unless you burn an offering, and then you're just moving the effective cost). Also, some killers NEED addons for every game because their basekit is so poorly designed and balanced.
Additionally, while the grind is reduced for top end players who have every character and every perk, perk BP was most useful for newer players, who are trying to get their game going. They don't have the problem of "there are 100 perks I have to get through to get the one I want." They need every bit of help to get their perk loadout even remotely playable. And that's not affected at all by the prestige change (but it IS hurt by the bp perk nerf)
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Changing BBQ and WGLF literally only because its "meta" is really just asinine. If you don't want people to predominately use these two perks than give a STABLE form of extra BP. No the matchmaking thing of MAYBE getting 25%-100% extra BP is not stable at all. And yes its still needed because perks are just one part of the BP economy. Not the be all end all.
Back to the old days of having to play 3 games to do one Bloodweb... Joy.
Hoard your flans everyone. That's your new BBQ/WGLF.
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Well the DURATION of the grind has been reduced by 75% but changing the perks decreased the efficiency of the grind by 50%, gaining 60k per match instead of 30k let players buy a lot more perks addons and offerings, the grind has also been made more open ended letting players get up to 5000 levels per character to progress them towards p-100 is now 50% slower compared to how it could have been, which is probably going to feel much worse, the front end of the grind is now smaller but the back end is definitely worse off and the amount you can cycle items and addons on both sides is much lower which also makes the matches themselves feel worse
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They COULD'VE given you a free cake/pudding every time you finish a blood web, to act like an offering-alternative to BBQ and WGLF, which would help make up for the tremendous bp loss those two perks provided. They didn't obviously, but it would've helped.
What is also being lost here is the sense of accomplishment you'd get from getting all 4 stacks of BBQ in a game. This was good for killers because it was an 'alternate win' that they could appreciate when the game puts them against survivors they have no chance of actually beating. It was good for survivors in that it encouraged the killer to go after everyone at least once instead of just tunneling out the weakest link as fast as possible.
They removed something that made the grind less odious for every level of play AND that made the game feel better to play for both sides.
"Meta" or no, it was good for the game and good for the players. Taking it out because you don't think people will need it quite so much is an embarrassing misreading of the thing's holistic value.
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where do you get the number 57 extra bloodwebs? you said earlier you needed like 40 bloodwebs between 40 and 50 (and thus including the ones at lvl 50)?
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The reduction is fitted more for if you play a various number of characters rather than just one.
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I am confused over all of this, I have a few P3-50 survivors and killers with every perk, I have some P3-50 with hardly any perks. Most are just left at 50. I wonder what will happen next. Seems that we will still need to reach level 50 each time to unlock everything. So it still seems like a grind. Idk, haha. I will just to wait until the PTB/live stream
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BHVR are also missing a huge point. A lot of players( myself included) considered the BP point bonus from BBQ&Chili a major incentive for playing killer. And now you took that away. Thanks a lot
Will you tell us how many players were asking for BBQ’s BP bonus to be taken away? This was a stupid, stupid change and I’m going to play the game far less often (if at all) because of it
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Buff bbq's aura reading and make both bloodpoint bonuses basekit
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How many prestige levels are there? Infinite?
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100
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This is what happens when we don't read.
#1. When you prestige, you will no longer have locks on Perk Slots so you don't need to go up 15 levels to unlock all perk slots
#2. You actually don't need to get every killer to Prestige 3 to unlock all perks on all killers, only Prestige 1, at that point Tier 2/3 of the perks will appear in bloodwebs as usual
28 killers times 50 levels comes out to be... 1,400 levels. Sure, it's more than 1284, but it's realistically not much worse especially if you keep just putting points into Oni. You would realistically get all the perks on one character much faster by bringing everyone up to P1 then just draining points into 1 character than to Prestige everyone to Prestige 3.
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I won't fight the math, but my only concern is that I do feel the grind has increased, i at least would like to get my favorites to P6 now so i can the bloody clothes, that's a net increase from previous P3, from 6M BP to 10.5M BP for P6, i don't really think I'd go for P9 since that's a net 14M BP. This i feel will keep me from wanting to get new mains, as much as I like the new characters. I understand BHVR doesn't want for BP to be a determining factor when choosing perks, but then it should go to base kit. I'm looking at an 21M to 28M BP investment for the new chapter, or 32.5M BP to 42M BP investment if there are 2 survivors coming with project W. This calculations of course if new blood webs are the same as before after a new prestige level. If the act as lvl 50 blood webs after 1st prestige, then numbers are a lot more.
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Where is all this info posted?
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Prestiging a character will no longer remove their perks, items, add-ons, or offerings. Perk slots will also remain unlocked after prestiging.
Wow I can finally prestige a killer without feeling like I'm naked. And this will probably be the first time prestige killers ever. Cause the old system sucked that bad.
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The way wglf is now compared to bbq doesn’t really compare tbh. The aura reading on bbq is insane. But a healing speed bonus to a guy on the ground who is already 95% isn’t insane. So I do think it needed a slight bonus buff but bbq is good
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Yep, new or newer players don't benefit from this. For them it's still a grind.
They removed the bo from bbq and that other perk for no reason.
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I think it's intentional.I wouldn't be surprised if they want people to use less items and addons than they do now.
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wglf trash ???? excuse me ??? chili now isnt valuable you have way better option and reliable way to see aura.
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ho yeah 1517 bloodweb is like nothing i guess youll only have it in like what ... 600 hours ? yall devs nned to VALUE your player time and not think that player souls are yours .
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The grind has just been reduced from insane to very high.
The problem is with every new chapter the grind increases again and will soon be again at insane levels, only this time we won't have BBQ and WGLF for extra Bloodpoints.
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It's only a reduction in the grind when your goal is to specifically unlock and max every perk on every character. On the survivor side if you're aiming to have one character with maxed out perks, even the most efficient path is a significantly larger grind than before, and that's before considering the removal of BP perks.
It's intentionally vague and somewhat misinforming to just say 'the grind has been reduced' when important phases of the grind have been massively increased. Hell, once you hit that one specific goal of all perks maxed, the theoretically endless grind after to maintain add ons and items has been slowed by half now that there's no BP perks.
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"They removed the bo from bbq and that other perk for no reason."
They removed it because it's poor game and perk design. Perks are adaptations to game mechanics, not the scoring of said game mechanics.
It's the single best thing this update brings for the overall health of the game and should have happened long ago.
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I don't agree with you. I play since 2016 and there is far bigger BS perks and BS game play designs than some extra BPs...
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I feel like people are also missing the fact that new/newer players will most likely not have many characters unlocked. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't sink a bunch of money unlocking DLCs on a game that I just bought.
The grind doesn't feel as much then for a newer player because they don't have much to work with anyway, so getting some free unlocks of perks on all their characters after prestiging just saves them some time in having to unlock.
Also, this greatly reduces the grind for the new player when they buy a new character. That new character will come with all the character perks they have already prestiged, which would be saving them a lot of time trying to "find" the perks through the blood web. They can hop into a game quicker with their "new" character they just bought and not feel naked.
Another thing, people are completely disregarding that part of the pain of the grind was because you had to hope the RNG gave you the perks you wanted on a killer. You would have to go through so many bloodwebs hopping to maybe get that one perk you wanted to play with, and that was for every killer. Now you can get that perk completely guaranteed by just prestiging instead of wasting bp on every killer trying to get that "one" perk you need.
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The grind was reduced,but not by 75%.
More like 35%
Someone did the math in this post if you wanna check it out.
The 75% grind reduction stat is nowhere near true, and the real number is more like 35%.
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Then why did’t they add the bloodpoint bonus to basekit? Heavily nerfing bloodpoint gains in an already grindy game isn’t the play.
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