The Core Issue With The Killer Buffs
Now - I'm a fan of the changes, as these amount to a solid buff to a lot of M1 or hybrid M1 killers, many of which are struggling right now (Onryo still needs love though).
However - they are also going to be a buff to Nurse (and to a lesser extent Blight), which is going to make these two problem killers even more dangerous.
The other issue is that these feel like a change made on behalf of SWF. Solo is already tough. I do understand that it's almost impossible to balance between the Fox/Chicken/Corn puzzle of SWF/Killer/Solo, but these feel like changes that should have come with an adjustment to a handful of addons on these specific killers, and some help for solos.
Something as simple as making Bond basekit for all players not in a party would be a huge help.
Comments
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Solo survivors will struggle for sure after this update. It's already a nightmare for many survivors. Before someone says "solo is not bad, I escape 50-60%" of all games, the experience can vary depending on region/MMR/luck/skill etc. We all know that solo survivors are handicapped in this game and most of them lose much more often than killers or SWF survivors. While the update itself is good, DEVs forgot about solo once again, it's gonna make solo experience an even bigger nightmare for many players.
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Yeah, that's my worry.
The Knockout buff...oh man, solos are going to have fun with that horrible perk now.
That said - you can't magically make people play better, and the core issue of solo is that sometimes you get potato teammates.
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Knock out is literal only there as a solo queue bully perk, you will get NO value against swf. but can completely shut down a solo squad
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I'd rather face a camping Bubba than a Knockout Hag, Ghostface or Myers in solo queue.
At least I can just suicide on hook if it's a facecamper.
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It's not about the skill of solo players, it's the synergy effect of SWF + comms that makes SWF survivors play better. Is that so hard to understand that a group of people playing together on cooms will always play better and seem to have higher skills that an uncoordinated group? Come on, even kids and killer mains should understand that.
I take that back, I'm not so sure about all killer-mains, judging by your reply. Especially if you think that solo survivors should rely on some perk and waste a perk slot to compensate their handicap.
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Not totally true, I had a match on comms (with an unorganized swf of much weaker players, but still.) where it bought the bubba using it a solid minute or two of slowdown.
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I agree that this update will be harsh on solo queue survivors. The changes at first seem good until you realize how bad this could turn out. Idk, I guess we'll have to test it.
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It actually is more about the skill of solos. A competent team can still win without comms. The problem is that people are mad about the reality that in a team game, teammates can make you lose. You shouldn’t balance around that.
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Solo queue is fine. It's a player skill issue, not a balance one.
Not denying there are lots of bad solo queue experiences, but just because my team or I plays bad doesn't make me all the sudden think solo queue needs buffs it just tells me how bad the average player is.
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I was also hoping they would throw solo queue players a bone here. Don't get me wrong, the base kit BT is great, but having to play blind on hook saves unless someone happens to have Kindred is just bad design. Especially when you consider SWF gets Kindred for free. Skilled players can play around it. It doesn't mean they should have to though. The whole concept of Kindred as a perk is bad. If two players have Kindred, the entire team is down a perk slot when one of those players is on the hook because of redundancy.
The other aspect of the changes are the buffs to already strong killer players who didn't need the buffs to begin with. There are 1800-1900 MMR Myers players out there and whatnot. And now they're getting 90 second gens and other buffs. I get that the buffs were aimed at the average killer, but high MMR is going to be a circus after these changes.
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Just, like.. anything. You know? Literally anything to close the info gap a tiny bit with SWF.
Or just something that SWF wouldn't use ten times more effectively.
But queue up with friends or perish I guess.
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No, I'm saying that solos should probably get something baseline to help.
It's indeed not a skill/balance issue.
It's a communication issue.
SWF can coordinate perks beforehand to ensure you don't have 4 Kindreds. SWF can call out who's going to rescue, so there's not 3 people jostling for the unhook.
The average player isn't bad. The average player is average. That's what average means :)
Solos need something to bridge the communication gap. They were supposed to get those fancy status icons, but that appears to have been abandoned.
This.
I know I'm now going to be looking for SWFs, because I'm going to get my walnuts toasted in solo.
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I mean Knockout is a bad perk now and will still be a bad perk. Solo survivors have MUCH bigger things to worry about in this patch than Knockout.
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Yea, my heart definitely skipped a couple of beats when I read about the Knockout Buff. I was like, well #########, in combination with the Spine Chill nerf, I guess I’ll be playing less than I already do if killers equip it more often.
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You'd think so. Then you get back-to-back people running Knockout and literally slugging and bleeding people out at 5gens to be a schmuck - and you realize that in solo queue, there's almost no counterplay for this.
It's like Boil Over was after the buff. It's still a terrible perk that is only used for trolling.
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@StarLost The problem with bringing solos up to SWF is the game isn't balanced around SWF, it's balanced around extremely low skill level solo queue. So if we were to implement buffs to solo killer would need massive buffs. More than I think the devs would realistically ever do.
Also, semantics, you know what I meant when I said the average player is bad. The average skill level is a very low skill level, not that the average itself is low.
Post edited by Blueberry on0 -
The changes require us to change as well. Is that really a bad thing? If you think about it, you will automatically start adjusting your play style after a few trials once these changes roll out. And the game is supposed to be challenging. BHVR is doing their part by making new challenges, so to speak. This keeps the game fresh, and hopefully sees an influx of new players.
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The buffs to Lucky Break, Distortion, Botany Knowledge, Pharmacy, Dark Sense, and Off the Record and people think that doesn't help solo queuing?
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The devs did say changes to solo were coming in the form of the icons that show when players are healing or being chased etc.
If not with this patch I would imagine the following patch along with some balance changes.
Some of the survivor changes sound pretty crazy strong, solo or not!
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I have to disagree that it's balanced for low skill level solo unless you consider "balanced" that the killer gets his 4k on autopilot.
I ended up in low MMR. Survivors make lots of mistake, can't run the killer for twenty seconds, no gens get done. After the first hook, it's mostly "run around the map and get the next teammate off the hook until everybody's dead".
When I still took notes of my matches it was a 10-18 match loss streak against pretty poor killers, then an escape (mostly hatch), then another loss streak. I think the game is more balanced around the average players where most players are playing. You don't need a single slowdown perk to 4k in low MMR. I've played against a huntress with a single tier 1 perk on Lery's who missed every hatchet and whiffed a lot but still got a 4k at 3 gens left (I could have opened a gate since they spawned far apart, but I wanted to die in misery because such a bad killer who couldn't even hit me wiped out my group so efficiently).
This is why I'm so negative about the changes. The perk changes are mostly fine, some are questionable but overall ok. The baseline changes that apply to all killers at all MMR levels will make low MMR killers completely OP.
To add to that, I personally play with none of the meta perks that got nerfed and I'm still doing somewhat better than my teammates who run them. That's another big red flag for me, because it won't matter that I don't rely on this stuff - if my teammates get even worse when the stuff that made them halfway decent gets nerfed, it affects me nevertheless.
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Uh, survivors got buffs too. lol @ basekit Bond. All that is going to do for solo players is have more randos dumping the killer on other people and now they can do it for free.
The issue with solo vs SWF is effectiveness, not really skill. Even a bad SWF team can coordinate and knock out gens because they aren’t wasting so much TIME like solo players will.
Even with these buffs, there’s not much a killer can do against a well coordinated team because it simply breaks the balance of the game. I solo queue almost exclusively and I don’t want solo buffed to SWF level or even near SWF level. One, killers won’t be able to compete. And two, it’ll make survivor way too easy. Even solo queue is not hard it’s just frustrating at times because of bad teammates.
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This wasn't part of the roadmap, so I can only assume it's been completely abandoned.
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Gens being 10s longer, sure. Kicks doing 2.5%? Negligible unless paired with other perks they’d use or not use anyways.
Nurse doesn’t break pallets. Blight uses alternate break which isn’t changed.
Attack cooldown is irrelevant because both fatigue. Bloodlust is irrelevant because their power immediately cancels Bloodlust build-up. The 0.2s shorter on-hit run speed, yeah. The DS stun reduction from 5 to 3, yeah.
But the new Dead Hard is even better than before against them. 0.5s of immunity becomes 1s of Endurance. Nurse has only a 1.5s window to attack before fatiguing and has to use both blinks to reach the survivor to begin with unless the survivor horribly misplays (3 blink is busted, not counting that). Blight would have to either Lethal Rush, or bounce around and come back after baiting it out (if they even have enough Rushes left), or not attack. He goes so fast if he doesn’t attack, he’d go past the survivor, and would either have to fatigue or (if enough Rushes remain) try and come back around for a second attempt at a hit.
I get people’s concerns, and I’m not a fan of some things like DS stun reduction, but I think people need to give it some time and see first.
Regarding solo, BHVR did say they’re working on icon indicators to show what teammates are doing (eg repairing).
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Except Off The Record the rest are negligible.
- Lucky break requires healing other people and it increases by time healed not charges put into, so it collides with any increased healing or cooperating heal, you get Bothany and instead of gaining 16 seconds youll get 10,6, and if you heal as 2 youll get only 8.
- Distortion the change seems ok but the perk has a problem where most Killer reading auras eat the stacks very fast, a lot of times without you being able to avoid it, Ive been using it lately because I was leveling the new Survivor and didnt have much else, stuff like Undying, Darkness Revealed and others can deplete your charges even before the Killer has a second hook, except BBQ the rest eat through it. We still dont have the full data but if the 30 seconds are also out of chase its just too much for a perk that gets depleted super fast or has no use at all.
- Botany is a buff but its only a 17% increase, it shaves 1,4 seconds of a heal from its current iteration (from 12 to 10,5), its not bad but I dont think its much better anyway, We'll Make It still outperforms it by orders of magnitude, after all most heals are done after an unhook, either under it or after escaping towards a safe spot, people injured being able to succesfuly juke the Killer is not the norm and its going to become even rarer after IW nerf, I dont think we are going to see more people escaping the Killer injured, actually I think we are going to see less.
- Pharmacy is still bad and still depends on YOU opening the chests and not other people, on a sidenote the reason they gave for the change also baffles the mind, who gets into a match with pharmacy and lets someone else take the medkit? I mean, you use it without items not when you carry something into the match, plus searching chests is usually detrimental for the team, better to put that time into fixing gens unless you happen to find one by chance.
- Dark Sense requires finishing a gen and the Killer entering 24 meters within you, by that time you probably can see him already or at least hear the TR and know where he is coming from, its a change Im not gonna judge yet, it may be better than current perk or worse but its not a very good perk anyway.
Dont get me wrong, those perks are buffed to an extent but they are not gonna make any difference for Solos and I dont believe any of them will become meta or see any high usage after the first month, maybe Bothany may see use after said month.
Post edited by HectorBrando on2 -
I'm fine with Blight, but Nurse is going to be even more miserable to play against. But yeah, Solo Q is gonna be pretty awful, but it already is anyway so not much is changing.
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Lucky Break on its own is one of the most powerful Perks in DBD. To be able to stack a buffed Botany Knowledge with a Medkit + add ons and heal yourself extremely fast and stop your timer from ticking away and have a means to add a few seconds back over the match is really good.
Distortion tells you what Perks the killer is using. So you can save stacks by hiding in a locker when you know the next aura read is coming, being able to get stacks back just by being near the killer in the terror radius is really good.
You are underestimating a 50% Botany Knowledge when combined with other effects.
Pharmacy can mean multiple medkits, especially if you bring a coin.
Dark Sense will show you undetectable killers and also just let you wall hack loop mindgames. 10 seconds is a significant amount of time when it starts at 24m. It will tell you if the killer actually knows where you are or if they are just passing by and will show you the direction you can go to avoid them if they haven't seen you, and you don't need to finish a generator for it to happen. Like Detective's Hunch it's just going to proc when one is finished.
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While I understand were you are coming from, I guess you havn't played kindred in earnest in a long time. Yes, SWF on coms always have an edge over soloQ's, but many of those look down on Bond and Kindred as somewhat beneath them, "trainingwheel perks" or "babies first survivor perk".
BUT there is a real big difference between hearing "I am at the shack, the killer is behind me" or "I am on top of the main building, please heal", and SEEING this kind of stuff. Especially Kindred comboed with Open Handed is so frigging stronk. You can monitor the killer over half the map and then some and win each and every mind game, because there is no mind-game.
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The aura reading is strong, but I don't think the game's balanced should rely on suboptimal play, which is essentially what limited information hopes to achieve.
We could even throw out the killer aura reading or cap it where it's at. I just think a complete lack of information for saves doesn't add anything fun to the game in 2022, but it definitely adds a frustration element.
Frustration as a feature is something the devs really need to move away from.
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Frustration will always be part of a 4v1, though. Lack of information is what essentially gives this game any semblance of horror and scaryness and why SWF bust it wide open and some people love the new killer and others hate nightfall and locker jump scares with a passion.
You will never please everyone, but giving each solo player all the juicy info perk for free? What will be left of the game, then?
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Lucky Break is not one of the most powerful perks in DBD, Ive been using it thanks to prestiges and plenty of times it doesnt give you anything because you are not in a high wall zone or a main building and the Killer has direct line of sight, the replenishing is a good idea but its too harsh for it to make any difference.
You can only save stacks against BBQ because you can anticipate the action of hooking, you cant save stacks against anything else because there is no way to predict when the Killer is going to open a locker, when an undying dull totem is behind a wall, when you are healing behind a wall and the Killer activates Thanato, thats the problem with Distortion having few charges and a 30 second recharge time wont be of much use, the perks and addons that eat charges eat them very fast and out of your control.
Im not underestimating Botany with other effects, the increase is a flat 1,4 shave on a 12 second healing with current Botany, from 12, to 10,6, its a buff? yes, its a powerful buff? no and with the nerf to Self-Care the best interaction it could have (speeding up self-caring) is effectively rendered the same, for healing others We'll Make It is almost universally better.
Sure, you can have several medkits with pharmacy, then you have to search for chests, hope nobody searched them already, search them and then go back there for that extra medkit when you need it, not bad but all that time could be put into fixing gens, its not the opening of the chests that consumes time, its having to search for them, I tremble when I see a coin in the offering screen because I know one person is not going to be fixing gens until he opens an absurd amount of chests.
Dark Sense wont show you undetectable Killers because those Killers auras cant be read, same as you cant read them with OoO or Alert or Kindred, there is nowhere on the update where it says it bypasses Undetectable so there is no reason to believe it will.
As I said, those perks got buffed? yes they did, are they gonna make a significant impact on Solo Queue? nope, Solo has two problems, first is lack of info which translates into lack efficiency, 3 people going after the same unhook instead of 1 going, 2 fixing, two people saw the same hex and attempt to cleanse instead of 1 cleansing, other fixing or distracting etc and second problem which is also related to lack of efficiency is camping and tunneling are extremely strong against Solos because they cant know if they have to go for the save or keep pushing gens because there is a camp and its very hard for Solos to support each other during a tunnel, SWFs can rotate people eating protection hits and then healing on a Boon or use a gathering point, heal and eat another protection hit, also during camps finding gens is harder for Solos, SWFs can comunicate where they saw gens so when you finish one you go straight to it, Solos have to search for them and that time can be critical.
Now the big question, do any of those perks help with any or both of those big problems Solos have? no, they just help in areas where Solo may have a bit of trouble but you dont lose games in Solo Queue because a heal took 16 seconds instead of 10,6 (if that were the case We'll Make It would be mandatory), or because you didnt have that extra charge to block one aura reading from BBQ (you can always use lockers or hide behind gens), Solos get smashed because they waste too much time compared to SWF.
P.D. on a sidenote and this is pure especulative from my part and a bit offtopic, I believe there is someone at the developer team with significant power who loves to run Pharmacy and they keep buffing it in ways because said person wants it to work but they keep ignoring the problem with the perk itself which is, people searching chests are people not fixing gens, unhooking teammates or distracting the Killer, they are not doing anything, the people selfcaring at the corner get a lot of flak for being useless but is no different from the people searching chests when the match is not in the bag yet, something like this happened on SC2 development, a unit which was the baby of someone with power and the team just couldnt make it work so they keep changing/buffing it.
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Pharmacy wasn't a buff, it was a nerf, specially in solo q.
By the time you're injured everyone and their mom already opened all the chests.
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Does not matter if makes nurse and blight better at all, a non-issue.
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Am I the only person that has no issue with blight? Like after playing him for a good bit it seems not that hard at all to counter him. Literally a single jungle gym can turn him into an M1 killer, or just simply... running around a corner and going behind obstacles he physically can't hit past.
Also. Solo's suffer in EVERY game to ever exist, it's always going to be a thing. It's how it is. Hell, there's literally not much you can do. Other than spoon feed survivors a bunch of base kit perks while they solo queue. To which would probably end up making killer feel like even more of a hell to play.
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To be fair Nurse avoids most of these buffs to killer, the only thing will be gen kicking buff to her, considering both Blight and Nurse have separate cooldowns from normal M1's, and Nurse doesn't need to break pallets at all same with blight really.
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