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Every upcoming change is good: prove me wrong.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying they are perfect. Some values can be adjusted, but they already said that they will be looking at stats and doing adjustments. The game has grown stale and desperately needed shakeup. I commend BHVR on having the courage to try something new.
On the killer side, I'm happy that DH is changing.
On survivor side, I'm happy that camping and tunneling was addressed.
Yes, I get it, some perks were made essentially useless. Ruin is an example. But that perk was unhealthy for solo queue. Survivors who don't have comms can't efficiently coordinate looking for the totem. I can keep going on with example, but I don't want to make a wall of text.
Comments
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Wouldn't go that far.
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None of the changes includes "Morbin' time".
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Disagree on the camping thing
Pretty much nothing in the future patch is anticamp
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This is honestly a good point and I don't know why more people aren't talking about this.
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I disagree with the word "every". Most changes are great, but there's a few who are a bad idea. Off the record buff is too over the top, but I have hopes it will be nerfed to some extent before it goes live.
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They could have very easily fixed that.
With the killer changes making it much easier to get 2 hits in while a survivor is unhooking, just remove grabs when unhooking. You don't risk getting snatched right off the survivor you're trying to rescue. The killer is forced to attack instead, making a hook trade the worst possible outcome.
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And what's the problem here?
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BT base kit and buffed Off The Record.
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They're anti-tunnel, they're not anti-camp.
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Can't go that far. I like most of the upcoming changes and I'm really happy about the game health update as a whole, but some things got nerfed too hard, and I don't feel like they did very much to dissuade camping or tunneling.
Iron Will, Spine Chill, and Self-Care got nerfed straight into never-used territory when arguably only one of them even needed a nerf to begin with, Ruin's close behind, and DS got nerfed hard while they buffed another perk to do exactly what it used to do, which makes no sense to me.
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They are anti-camp against any killer without a chainsaw.
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Any killer can grab someone going for a hooksave.
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It does exactly what they nuked DS for, better, on both hook states, that doesn't go away in the endgame, and can be used far more aggressively. You don't even have to be injured to keep the endurance.
It's stupid abusable and it doesn't make sense from the devs.
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Iron Will eliminated Spirit almost entirely. This wasn't healthy for the game.
Spine Chill was making stealth killer walk side ways, which is just silly.
Self-Care is bad for your team. Bring COH instead.
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It's a better version of anti-tunnel perk. People were asking to stop tunneling and camping. Not sure what the problem is.
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Your telling me that IW deactivating when exhausted and the new OTR are good?
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This ain't gonna stop tunnelling or camping, it's just gonna piss people off. And even if it did, having to run a perk ain't the way to do it.
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While Self-Care is bad, no Perk should be so completely detrimental that NOT running it is better.
I honestly never liked Self-Care. It's a perk for Blendies that never touch a gen or get a hook save to try and ninja the hatch at the end of the game. It has a few niche uses which I am fine with (healing for a late game hook save for example), but most people used it for immersion gameplay that ruined the competitive nature of the game. That said, it shouldn't be so bad that replacing it with almost any other perk is the better option. It should have been reworked better while making the Blendies mald. The devs have said they want to do more changes like this, though, where they throw things at the wall and see what sticks. I'm all for this. I just hope Self-Care gets back on the list for throwing, cuz this isn't going to stick. NO perk should be completely useless or entirely overshadowed by all other options. Self-Care still has a few niche uses, but they are so limited that they barely factor into consideration.
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BHVR clearly stated that their objective is to buff killers, so, yes, nerfing IW helps achieve that objective. Now using IW will actually require thinking and planning instead of enjoying passive effect.
OTR is good at reducing camping/tunneling. Maybe 80 seconds is too long, but they said that they will monitor and adjust values.
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Why is Self-Care being nerfed to 35%, a perk that can only be used by one survivor, when COH is 50% for every survivor?? Seems like an awful change
Like COH should've been reduced if anything
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While that's true about Iron Will, and it was the most problematic of the bunch, making the perk completely useless isn't a desirable solution either. Currently it does not function as a stealth perk, period. I can think of better nerfs they could have done to maintain stealth while losing its total strength in chase - such as 100% sound reduction while crouching or in a locker, but 75% or even 50% while running.
While that's true about Spine Chill, the killers like Myers and Ghostface who are the hardest hit by SC still tell the user that they're being stalked, so that wasn't actually fixed. The perk is just now completely useless for everything else. Spine Chill now does nothing that you can't do by rotating your camera and being attentive. Premonition is now better, and Premonition is garbage.
If Self-Care is bad for your team, then it's a bad perk and surely doesn't need to be nerfed into a worse perk for your team? Baby Claudettes are still going to bring it and now it's going to be worse. To me, Self-Care was a prime example of how just because a perk is frequently used does not mean it's unbalanced or needs a nerf.
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I agree with you that no perk should be completely detrimental. But BHVR clearly explained that according to their stats it's OP in high skill matches. I don't have any data to prove them wrong, so I have no reason to doubt it. That's how I interpret this:
"Though Self-Care has a divisive reputation among the community, we were surprised to find that its usage peaks in the highest skill matches. Having a consistent and reliable way to heal at will is a powerful tool in the right hands. On top of that, Self-Care increases the efficiency of Med-Kits, allowing Survivors to squeeze additional heals out of them. "
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First two changes are more or less healthy for the game as it did completely countered certain killer's power, which was obviously ridiculous.
Self-care nerf weren't necessary at all though.
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My guess is that COH's time just hasn't came yet. They added perk to destroy it and will probably address COH later when stats on the new anti-boon perk come in. In other words: we just need to have patience.
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Yeah. Iron will is busted. I see it nearly as much as dead hard. Survivors use it to go to a loop, break line of sight and hold W. When I use it as a survivor it feels like I'm cheating. Needed a hard nerf.
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But will you admit that this is a bad change?
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See, I don't disagree those perks needed nerfs, but there's a middle ground between their current state and completely useless. We shouldn't be trying to create F-tier perks, and that goes against the whole idea of this update that more perks should be viable and they want to see build variety. The goal was to bring the meta down on the level of other perks, not down to the very bottom of the barrel.
Also, Spine Chill still counters Ghostface and Myers, who were the two killers who suffered hardest from it. It's just that nobody's going to run it because the perk is now like Calm Spirit (which also got inexplicably butchered in the name of a buff) - very helpful versus one killer in the roster and basically useless for the other 27, and you don't bring perks expecting a specific killer unless you're streamsniping.
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That's fair, and I think they had good reason to look at the Perk for changes, I just don't agree that nerfing it into being literally only better than a blank perk slot was the right call.
In higher MMR, it's primarily used for solo hook saves and to increase the power of other heal sources. If anything, the second portion is probably what would have needed to be addressed in order to chill the high MMR use of it. It's used to get more value and speed out of Medkits, CoH, etc.
A simple but more effective change would have been to let it allow players to self heal as normal, but when healing others, the speed is normal. It would then generate more Skill Checks that give larger percentages when hit. This adds a (slightly) less mindless application of the bonus it provides, and can still cause a player to fail if they are trying to use it in a tense situation. On top of that, it could use Hard Skill Checks if the person using it is also wounded, which would definitely affect higher MMR more.
Maybe that's a bad change. Dunno. I just think their current change is making the Perk next to useless in most situations, while not really addressing WHY the Perk was so prominent.
Also, I still want Blendies to seethe. Whatever they do with it, Blendies must seethe.
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Spine Chill nerf was done to address 2 specific situations and it does exactly that. It's in the description. It was not to make it completely useless against GF and Myers.
"This perk excels at alerting Survivors when a Killer is approaching, and in high skill lobbies, the vault speed increase becomes the primary draw. There are a few aspects of this perk we would like to clean up.
Spine Chill will now only activate if the Killer has a clear line of sight to the Survivor. This will remove the awkward counterplay where the Killer must look away to ensure a stealthy approach. "
I personally hated doing crab walking. It's just silly.
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Tunneling and camping got buffed tho.
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How so?
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All great ideas, but with so many perk changes, my guess is that BHVR didn't have any time for more complex changes and just went for something that was quick and simple just to stop high MMR overuse. Yes, hopefully they will come back to it and do another review later.
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Calm Spirit. Unless the wording is unclear, and you can choose to do it silently or not, then there's an arbitrary downside, just like Technician has.
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"Prove me wrong"
PTB isn't even out yet. Also Camping and Tunneling wasn't addressed. It's still a band-aid to a core issue, It's just a bigger band-aid.
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camping is less penalized as "just do gens 4head" is harder now with increased gen speed, more hook grabs as less m1 cooldown, 5 second bt and haste doesn't matter when bubba doesn't allow you to get the unhook in the first place.
Buffed thana is even better for tunneling now as its a perma 5.5% debuff to gens while you tunnel a survivor out and increased gen speeds dont help. 10% buff to chase + buffed bloodlust help end chases faster, nerfed DS, OTR not working if you're already deep wounded from the killer hitting you in the face while you have the mini bt.
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Yes, I agree, the arbitrary downside is not needed and the perk is still not very good. But... Is it better than before? I think so. With IW nerf killer doesn't expect silent survivors. So this gives opportunity for interesting mind games.
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I'm worried about Knockout (the most obnoxious perk to face as a solo) and Off The Record (everything they nerfed DS for, and more).
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While it doesn't stop all kinds of camping, it stops the most common one: proxy camping and at least it gives a chance. In the past, if Bubba proxies you and no BT. Chances are both people go down. Now there is an opportunity for exchange.
"Survivors will receive a 5 second Endurance effect after being unhooked. This gives the unhooked Survivor an opportunity to reach a nearby window or pallet, or for another Survivor to position themselves for a Protection Hit. " - it's to give "opportunity", they never promised guaranteed anti-tunnel.
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I barely ever saw Knockout in use. I remember seeing one a few months ago. It was completely useless against SWF. At least now there will be some use. And I never noticed it being too hard to counter in solo. I'd prefer killer use it anytime over any gen slowdown perk.
Off The Record is a hard counter to tunneling and was sorely needed. DS is just a tiny nerf. If they didn't nerf it, you could probably stack DS on top of OTR and that would be annoying.
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But now Spine Chill doesn't give you anything worthwhile. It's a niche two-killer counter, and even then, it's only a counter if you're inattentive and don't rotate the camera, so it's not even on par with Calm Spirit and Doctor because only newbies don't do that. Like, there's a reason that stealth killers are all C-D tier, and a good chunk of it is that players get less vulnerable to stealth as they learn to play the game. Previously Spine Chill had a plethora of uses beyond countering stealth killers - knowing if a Nurse was blinking to you or a Spirit was phasing towards you, getting a head start on sneaking away from a gen, even discerning what detection perks the killer is running. Now it's just a secondary pair of your own eyeballs, and doesn't even give the bonus vault speed people occasionally paired with Resilience, which there was no especial reason to remove. (If you want to talk about the theme of perks, then why the hell did they pick Off The Record to be an anti-tunneling perk? The perk name and description implies a stealth perk, and OTR is anything but that in its new state.)
Sure, crabwalking was stupid, but... the perk has to actually do something for it to be worth bringing, you know? That's like saying "Gens blowing up while you're working on them is frustrating, so we've changed Pain Resonance's applied damage from 9/12/15 to 1/1.5/2." Something being an inconvenience is not inherently a reason to nerf it. The fact that there was counterplay was enough. You could choose to crabwalk or risk the perk. Hell, I never bothered with it unless a survivor's behavior led me to suspect they had Spine Chill, and I generally did fine.
You keep referring to BHVR's reasoning as ironclad proof that the changes were good things, but that's assuming people haven't already read the patch notes and formed their own opinions. They're not always right. I'm not saying I am or anything, but you still have yet to give anyone a reason why nerfing Self-Care was the right idea, so I think I'm on to at least something here with this update not being 100% sunshine and roses.
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Lets be honest if a bubba is camping you its going to be a facecamp. With the speedboost being nerfed in duration by 10% you are still losing distance pre-patch by a meter from when bubba hits you with his chainsaw sweep. You now move at 6.28m/s or 157% when unhooked for 1.8 seconds instead of 6m/s for 2 seconds. Now, chances are even more likely that both go down since you make less distance than prepatch distance. And even if you have DS the stun is only 3 seconds leaving you 2 seconds to run away since it takes a seconds or so for you to land.
You have roughly 2 seconds to live aganist a camping bubba once he hits you when you have endurance. There is more opportunity and incentive to camp since once again the gens are slowed down.
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Self care didn't need it's 10th nerf (I know it wasn't literally 10, but it's been nerfed a lot)
DS also didn't need it's 10th nerf
Thana did not need a buff. Legion is about to be like old Forever Freddy. boring as hell
The 2 strongest killers in the game just got passively buffed massively. Successful attack cooldown decreased AND the distance survivors run less distance after a hit. It's gonna be a cake walk for Nurse and Blight players as they laugh at the measly distance survivors run away before they pursue.
Calm Spirit got extra effects with a decreased speed which is a nerf.
Early game camping, especially by Bubba just became an even stronger "strat". The current strategy against face camping Bubba is "just do gens" With 10 seconds added to every gen, Bubba has even more time to be boring an secure their kill before moving on to get an easy 2nd kill and possibly more because they will also have NOED on top of that if the remaining survivors can finish gens.
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If I never saw Knockout again, it would be a good thing. It's the worst kind of perk; like Third Seal, it's worthless against SWF but nasty against solos, and tends to cause survivors to die on hook or bleed on the floor for long periods of time.
I never see anyone use Knockout unless they're a.) doing adept Bubba or b.) intending to 4-man slug everyone to death. It isn't a healthy perk and the update just makes it better at what it does.
The problem is that this came with a bunch of killer buffs that indirectly buffed camping. The mini BT/Guardian is nice, but I'm skeptical that 5 seconds of 107% is enough to make it anywhere, especially once pallets have started to disappear. That sure as hell isn't going to get you out of the basement. And it doesn't do anything against a facecamping Bubba or a killer that's waiting next to the hook for a grab - those are now stronger than before.
They wanted to reduce the reliance on second-chance perks, but Off The Record is looking like a 100% necessity again, just like BT was. I guess it covers the role of both DS and BT, and that's nice to free up another perk slot? But it's still a clear showcase that there's problems with how easy and powerful tunneling is, and how few options survivors have when the killer won't leave the hook.
Ultimately I don't think survivors got enough out of this exchange and solo is going to be miserable for the next few months. I expected more out of the promise to address tunneling and camping. Naive of me, perhaps, but I was hoping we'd actually see something that disincentivized that behavior, or rewarded not doing it, instead of teaching killers to wait 5 seconds before they hit the guy again.
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Calm Spirit sucks
Sole Survivor still sucks
Deadlock camping/Facecamping has been buffed and/or not addressed
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It was nice to see that perks are being changed but what we got was...
Gen Regression perks changed... Ruin isn't as strong as it once was, Pop is the same... but Overcharge was wicked strong (on paper) and so is Eruption
BT turned basekit (for the most part)... but 10 more seconds on a Gen (RIP)
Cleaning blades (or whatever the Killer uses) is faster and so is Kicking Gens... basically STBFL and Brutal Strength turned basekit
Prestige changes and BP Perks got taken out (RIP)
And all I want to say is none of these changes much in game... What I would've done was to increase Base Gen Regression (and yes I would've done the Ruin change... Call Of Brine would get changed as well -maybe-)...
And to find out the real reason behind player action... and that being Maps
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Spine chill and iron will nerf makes the stealthy survivor less of a possibility going forward.
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I can prove you wrong with 2 letters... bE 😁
Joking aside, i dont think these changes are gonna be as 'doom n gloom' as ppl think. Was kinda hopin theyd go nuts with shiftin the meta. I doubt this will change it much at all
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Post-patch OTR fills the same role as pre-patch DS, even bringing back the EGC problem they tried to fix for DS here.
OTR is slightly worse though, because an OTR bait can't be punished like a DS bait can.
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Less of a possibility, but still possible. The perk was overused, which is what they wanted to reduce. It's not possible to make it less used without affecting its uses. That's how you shake up the meta. You shake it up by reducing possibility of some things and increasing possibility of other things.
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It's not exactly same problem. Old DS was annoying on both sides. Some killers would slug for entire minute just in case survivor has DS. It's not fun to wait as a killer and it's not fun to be a slug as survivor. Now there is less time waste. You either escape immediately or you don't.
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