DS Endurance deactivates when EGC starts, but OTR doesn't?
How on earth does it make sense that OTR endurance stays active when EGC starts, but DS endurance doesn't?
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Cause DS doesn't give endurance its a stun on killer.
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It doesn't make sense, at all.
The literal exact problem with DS in end game they fixed...just to then add the exact same problem with OTR.
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Why do you think you deserve a Kill in Endgame as Killer? Yes, you have to tunnel and camp at this point. But this does not mean that you should get the Kill.
You most likely failed during the match if you really need to rely on camping and tunneling in Endgame to get one Kill.
But how it makes sense? It doesnt. The goal is just to say "We changed the Meta, people are running other Perks now". So you just have to nuke DS to achieve it and make another Perk which will replace it.
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Why do you think you deserve an escape in Endgame as survivor? You got hit, meaning you failed.
"You most likely failed during the match if you really need to rely on camping and tunneling in Endgame to get one Kill."
So if you didn't 4k by end game you failed in the match? Really?
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"Why do you think you deserve an escape in Endgame as survivor?" You dont deserve it.
And for me, once all Gens are done, I lost as a Killer. I know that Killers like to point out that stuff like NOED exists and that the game is not over. But why should Survivor Perks disable when the game is not over?
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We will be monitoring how this plays out on the PTB, as with all the other changes that are being made. If things do turn out to be problematic, then things can be changed prior to the update going Live (or shortly after at least).
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Because free kills/escapes shouldn't be a thing and being active at end game perks like OTR enable that.
For you maybe that's the case, but that is not reality. The sheer existence of end game perks shows that.
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The game does not end when all the gens are completed lmao. If the killer “lost” when the fifth gen popped, it would just cut to the menu. The existence of perks like hope, noed, no way out, blood warden, no one left behind, etc prove you wrong
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Yes. Please more Buffs to camping and tunneling.
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And yet both happen. The "Nerf" to NOED (which is more a mild inconvenience) shows that BHVR supports free Kills. So free Escapes should be supported as well.
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Why does anyone think they're entitled to anything in this game? The problem with the DS/BT combo before in endgame was that it created a lose/lose situation with absolutely zero counterplay in a high stakes environment where each interaction is supposed to be high risk/high reward. Thats absolutely bad design, regardless of which side it affects. Just like bubba being able to hit a bt'd unhooked survivor twice in the same chainsaw rev before they can escape, similar "you don't get to play" situation, which was probably no small part of the base 5 sec BT also giving haste as well. One feels a bit more fixed than the other, which is why people are trying to bring attention to it now rather than later.
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Yes, the game does not end at this point.
Yet people want Perks to stop working at this point. Why should a Perk which is not limited by any duration (like Corrupt Intervention or Lethal Pursuer) or occurrence (like Hexes or Boons) suddenly stop working? Because the Killer is annoyed?
As Killer you will have even more time now to kill all 4 Survivors before Endgame. If this does not work out, you might have lost. Accept it. And dont think that you deserve some Endgame-Kills, just because you play the Killer Role and deserve some belly rubs.
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To be clear I want NOED gutted as well. It's free kills and should be reworked as well.
"shows that BHVR supports free Kills"
No, they nerfed it to "try" and make it not free kills. They failed in that attempt, but to say they "support free kills" based on that is severely hyperbolic.
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Well to be fair if someone played more skillful than another player or "outplayed" them wouldn't that mean they deserve the down?
I get what you're going with on the whole entitled thing and it is true, but it was a tad exaggerated.
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Perks should be disabled from making lose/lose scenarios that can carry a large risk with either outcome. Thats part of the reason perks get made into hexes/boons or why they have situational conditions. Have you seen what happens if you want to teleport to a locker next to a hooked survivor as dredge? all of them in a radius from the hook are blocked off, because that would be
annoying to survivorsbe completely unfair and have no counterplay. The BT/DS endgame combo was absolutely an oversight, as is replacing it with another version of basically the same.3 -
Probably because NOED kill isn't really free at all, while most second chance perks are literally free with NO interaction from anyone.
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Standing in front of the Hook in Endgame is not skillful. Or outplaying anyone. Especially not if all Perks against camping are disabled in Endgame.
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You can turn off NOED during the end game (the one period of the game where it does anything). You can't do the same to Off the Record. Not a good comparison.
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Having a hooked survivor at endgame is skillful though, because game doesn't automatically hook survivors at endgame.
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That's where you get skillful, bait swings and body block with the team. It asks skill in the interaction.
You just getting a free out because you have a perk on with zero counter play isn't skillful.
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I get that. The only thing that is just pissing me of is that, while I still dont think that Killers deserve Kills in Endgame just because there is nothing else they can do, that DS did not get buffed (in its Anti-Tunneling aspects) at all while being deactivated in Endgame. In fact, it got nerfed and gets replaced with Off the Record.
Which might also get nerfed - while camping already got buffed.
And as you mention lose/lose-Situations - yet NOED is still allowed to exist. And NOED is a lose/lose-Situation for Survivors. Cleanse Totems? Great, you probably dont even make it to Endgame in the first place! Dont cleanse Totems? Here, have your skillless Instadown and Speedboost.
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If you are hooked next to or within decent range of an exit gate, and it gets powered, you get not only the first hit and subsequent speed boost from the BT, but if they catch up and get a second hit as well you now have the entirety of DS' remaining timer to crawl out as the killer can do nothing to stop you. If they pick you up, you DS them and escape during the stun... and this is all assuming nobody else bodyblocks any of these hits. That scenario is the one people complain about with these perks causing problems endgame, it requires zero skill itself while preventing any possibility of counterplay simultaneously.
Does it always play out like that? no. there are times where it wouldn't matter whether it was endgame or not, the interaction would be the same as otherwise. It does, however, make a nice big field of immunity radiating out of the exit gates (with its size dependant on the killer's tools,) which is a problem.
Easy solution? make it so that once entering the exit gate area, all endurance/DS/etc effects are removed. Can let everything work the same as it does now regarding endgame, just that one change would make the last second the most dangerous one, rather than the guaranteed escape.
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So, the Killer should get their Kill in Endgame while not being skillful and the Survivors HAVE to be skillful?
I mean, I dont care that much about dying in Endgame anyway, at least I had a game. I care more about getting tunneled or camped during the game, but BHVR seems to like that, otherwise they would not have buffed it.
However, I have a problem with Killers thinking they are entitled to get a Kill, just because "There is nothing else to do for the Killer". I get that, I also camp and tunnel in Endgame, because there are no Gens to protect or anything. But if you think you deserve a Kill just because of that...This is just wrong.
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You can cleanse totem at endgame? accelerate cleansing so it doesn't take that much of a time? play with friends?
And if killer pressured survivors with 3 perks before endgame to the point they can't afford to break totems, that is certainly a skillful play.
Also considering that killer needs to find, chase, land the attack, calling that "skillless" is just wrong.
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I've never disagreed with any of that.
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A lot of the killer side feels the same about how the gen defense perks got treated... with how hamfisted Pop's nerf was, you'd think they would at least be more lax about the time restriction which was made worse with the justification of giving the killer too much time to use it, right? Now its both a ton weaker, AND still requires you to sacrifice chases to use half the time.
Why you would call Noed lose/lose is beyond me, when not only can it be prevented from even happening, it can be disabled after it is, AND they're now removing more of the skill requirement from disabling it with the expanding aura for it. Not a good hill to die on with that one imo.
Personally I don't think camping got buffed, but i do certainly think it got incetivized more, instead of less. Killers need reasons to go straight for a gen after a hook, and they were hit both in knowing which gen to go for as well as what to do when they get there. The extra base gen progress required isn't enough to offset that, nor is instant progress just small enough to offset the required animation, so i agree that camping will go up, but not necessarily because its stronger.
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"So, the Killer should get their Kill in Endgame while not being skillful and the Survivors HAVE to be skillful?"
No, they got outplayed and went down prior to end game. Also, there is skill for the killer there because the survivor is trying to bait out a swing hence the hook tapping. The killer is trying to be skillful in calling his bluffs and timing his swing while maneuvering body blocks.
"I mean, I dont care that much about dying in Endgame anyway, at least I had a game. I care more about getting tunneled or camped during the game, but BHVR seems to like that, otherwise they would not have buffed it."
They literally gave you a buffed BT and OTR to use preventing tunneling mid game which I'm totally fine with during mid game btw. Why do you keep exaggerating everything? To say they like tunneling and camping during the game is just objectively a false statement and you know it. Just because I think they make bad balance decisions for killers wouldn't make me all the sudden say they hate killers.
"However, I have a problem with Killers thinking they are entitled to get a Kill, just because "There is nothing else to do for the Killer"."
That isn't what they think.
"But if you think you deserve a Kill just because of that...This is just wrong."
Not wanting a free/uncounterable escape in end game is not equivalent to thinking they deserve a kill.
They want fair and skillful exchanges in end game.
You say killers want free kills while simultaneously asking for free escapes. This is hypocritical.
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"They literally gave you a buffed BT and OTR to use preventing tunneling mid game which I'm totally fine with during mid game btw. "
Buffed BT is nothing. Sorry, it is 3 seconds more and a bit of Haste. You still are required to run BT if the Killer is camping. And I mean actual camping, before someone comes up and claims I would go for rushed Hook Rescues...
The basekit BT is nothing When they teased it a few months ago I already said that it might be just a bad thing like 5 seconds at base. And what happened? 5 seconds at base. At least they did not rework BT into something entirely different like I feared.
Off the Record --> Really, it is whatever. Off the Record can also be named DS, it is the same. Just that DS got kicked out of the Meta and OTR is in.
But what people wanted were baseline changes to tunneling and camping. And those did not happen, since the 5 seconds are useless and the one Anti-Tunneling Perk (even if it is bad at Anti-Tunnel) just got replaced with another Anti-Tunnel Perk which you are basically required to run. I dont see any improvements.
And sorry, but I can only think that BHVR likes to buff camping if they increase Gen Times but not Hook Time.
Added to what I wrote above:
I call NOED lose/lose because you will either waste valuable time and dont reach Endgame OR get smacked with a 4% Movement Speed Instadown. You might be able to do 5 Totems in an SWF, but not when you are playing as Solo. Because you always have to keep in mind that your teammates might not be productive at all, so you basically have to do their work. And if you have 450 Generator-Seconds to do for 4 people, you are at around 112,5 Generator-Seconds for each Survivor.
But once one of those Survivors does not do their Generator-Seconds, you are forced to do them for them. Last night I had a game where 2 Survivors were not touching a single Gen. How should I do 5 Totems as well in this situation? If I do the Totems (the Killer was not that good, so NOED was a possiblity, but it was a 2v1 so the Killer was doing fine...), there is even less people on Gens. And if I dont to Totems, I get smacked with NOED.
And well, the Slowdown-Meta for Killers did not really change. While I think that Perks like PGTW and Ruin were mainly nerfed just to have other Perks in the Meta (similar to DS or Iron Will), Pain Resonance is still very good (and got a little buff due to more Gen Regression) and other Slowdown-Perks can be used.
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Free kills, like when killers camp? Got it.
Since you guys wanna get technical, killer is still camping at endgame so DS should not deactivate.
Funny how a playstyle which isn’t a perk (so it doesn’t need to get brought in) doesn’t get the same argument in it’s technicalities.
Meanwhile you want nothing to stand in your way of stackable endgame perks.
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Cleanse it during the end game, then.
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Easy solution is just to camp people with OTR out of the game as soon as you see it.
Hook 2 essentially becomes hook 3 or a trade train.
See? No one needs to argue about skillful end game interactions or worry about free/end game kills/escapes.
Everybody gets two hooks :)
Easy counterplay in my games, at least.
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Overzealous was in the '40 perk rework' announced before it even got its own PTB, and it won't be changed until the midchapter with everything else.
Forgive us if "it will be monitored" doesn't fill us with confidence that we aren't about to be facing the most OP perk in years for several months regardless of what happens on this PTB.
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If we're getting super technical, DS turns off when you are trying to complete your objective, so if you're objectice is to leave the trial, then DS should turn off when you're trying to leave the trial. ;)
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"Buffed BT is nothing. Sorry, it is 3 seconds more and a bit of Haste. You still are required to run BT if the Killer is camping. And I mean actual camping, before someone comes up and claims I would go for rushed Hook Rescues..."
It's literally not. If you read the perk it adds 10 seconds on each buff. IE base is 5 seconds of Endurance and 5 seconds of Haste. Running BT you have 15 seconds of Endurance and 15 seconds of haste. 15 seconds more is not 3 seconds more, or even close.
With the Haste effected added for increased distance the basekit BT is giving you nearly the same distance essentially as actually running old BT, which did preventing tunneling pretty well. So to say required to run new BT I wouldn't say is really true. It makes tunneling or camping much harder but not impossible, however the entire intent wasn't ever to make them impossible, just more difficult and time consuming on the killer, which it does.
I would actually like more base kit changes to prevent tunneling/camping even further with killer buffs to compensate. However that was never actually the entire point of our conversation and is off topic.
The topic was free escapes/free kills at end game which is why second chance perks like DS, BT, OTR and NOED need/needed changes.
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You don't even need to do any of that with regard to noed, you literally just need to remember where any totems you see are, then double check them after the last gen pops to see if they're lit. You can legitimately passively build up a counterplay strategy just by having eyeballs. Use a map and you dont even have to remember where they are... Hell sometimes it lights up a totem right next to the last gen that was being worked on, which actually rewards not wasting time on the totem and just doing the gen instead. If you apply more tactics against it you might learn to hate the perk less, or at the very least be willing to admit when you could have prevented it from rolling you.
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Yeah nice try. Then you can deactivate it when my ass goes past those gates.
And if you are technically chasing the same person that just got unhooked, you can stop tunneling them and switch to someone else if you want it deactivated.
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At that point, you are not trying to escape. You are just escaping. It needs to deactivate when you are making an attempt to escape.
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"Free kills, like when killers camp? Got it."
I guess you really haven't read my posts. That isn't what I've said, at all.
"Since you guys wanna get technical, killer is still camping at endgame so DS should not deactivate."
Camping does not give a free kill, DS does give a free escape. I have still said I wanted camping/tunneling changes as well anyway.
"Funny how a playstyle which isn’t a perk (so it doesn’t need to get brought in) doesn’t get the same argument in it’s technicalities."
It literally does, are we on the same forums? Posts on it 24/7. Most the forums literally agrees that comping/tunneling needs addressing myself included. The game simply needs balance changes to accommodate this.
"Meanwhile you want nothing to stand in your way of stackable endgame perks."
What are you even talking about? I have never said a single thing about this. I even literally said on this page I wanted NOED gutted...
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Camping doesn’t give free kills?
So when A Huntress just holds her hatchet and waits to down someone that isn’t a free kill? What do you call that then? A Convenient kill?
I did read through what you typed that is the whole reason I don’t agree. You are finding every little technicality you can with a perk, so if someone gets unhooked and then killer continues to chase that same person, they should keep DS. I mean if we believe in not wanting free kills, because everyone knows that just because you have DS means you escape by using it. It is very dependent on gate location, map RNG etc.
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That's just called camping. Nothing is stopping person A from standing in between the Huntress and person B while they unhook person C.
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Some killers could create unwinnable trades which is why the BT base was added and buffed with the haste. note: some. Others if there were 2 survivors going for the save could be forced into the body block shell game, which certainly removed the guaranteed aspect of the kill. was the situation still in the killer's favor? mostly, depending on what killer and how coordinated the survivors are. But against someone like pig its certainly not a free kill unless the survivors just give up on it or mess up badly.
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Free kills meaning no counter play vs equally skilled players.
Does camping have counter play? Yes. Hence not free kills.
Is it too easy to camp/tunnel however and should it be made more difficult to do? Also yes.
There's more nuance here. I feel like you're making it more black and white while there's quite a bit of grey area in the conversation.
"You are finding every little technicality you can with a perk"
Yes. It's critical thinking.
"so if someone gets unhooked and then killer continues to chase that same person, they should keep DS."
I see why you don't like this and during mid game I agree. In the end game however this is where the skilled interaction of body blocking comes into play as well as timing grabs. You also do still get the free basekit BT here as well to help with that. This is a difficult nuance to balance as we have to find a middle ground where it's not too much of a free kill but also not a free escape which is what I'm making an argument for here. Just saying they keep DS isn't a middle ground argument as that's just a free escape as well.
"I mean if we believe in not wanting free kills, because everyone knows that just because you have DS means you escape by using it. It is very dependent on gate location, map RNG etc."
Well typically by the gate is where you're going down as that's where all the interaction is taking place as after the last gen that is the objective location now. Just saying I'd give it less rng than you are.
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Potatoe-potato.
The point is that if we are setting specific standards then it should be for both sides.
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Those standards should be contextual based on what point of the game we are at, though, as that determines what the goals and strategies are for each side, though.
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honestly I think old ds is more broken at egc especially with perks like unbreakable and soul guard. Otr is just a endurance effect. Maybe take away the speed boost from endurance or don’t give killer an attack recovery animations for hitting a survivor with endurance effect. Honestly it should just deactivate during egc or atleast have more requirements to activate it
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The game aint over until the survivors are out the door, stop being defeatist and go ham in endgame
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Just turning off after the 5th gen like DS is probably the easiest to do solution.
I also liked the idea I saw someone else mention where it only works for your first unhook. This gives makes it so if the killers bad or you're way better you get rewarded by still having it active at end game and giving you a free out but not if the killer plays better earlier in the match and plays more fair by spreading hooks around so no ones at first hook in end game. I like perks that encourage healthier game play like that.
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Providing 1 example of DS being used at EGC where you successfully get out isn't "contextual" enough. Because many of us who actually play DS know that there are also cases where the gates are too far.
So the whole idea that just because someone has a perk at EGC active does not mean = free escape. That is what I am getting at.
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I would argue that with BT or even the new base kit changes to unhooking, the scenarios where you can't make the escape with DS mostly boil down to player error a majority of the time.
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