Survivors are not having fun with this game anymore
First off, lets not make this an us vs them.
Right now, about every other game I've played, has become a face-camper or tunneler at gen 5 and I think that most survivors are experiencing this now as complaints have started really piling up on these forums and from other survivor players I've engaged with. (I don't want to see killer players explaining why they think killers are doing this because that is subjective and changes from player to player).
Disconnects are going up, suicides on hooks are going up. Survivors are enjoying this game less and less.
The developers seem to be trying to fix the issues killers are having, which is great. There needs to be some work on the issues that is killing the fun of the game for survivors.
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Off the Record and the new Endurance meta say otherwise.
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PTB survivors really seems to having fun, a lot of fun.
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Lets not pretend survivors are "only" dcing because of face camping. I admit face camping contributes to it but I have survivors dc because they were the first one to be found.
On a side note, half the survivor player basis can uninstall and my que times won't be affected because there are plenty to go around. More people playing killer will affect my que time greater than survivors quitting the game. If this game were an MMO, killer is a tank/healer role and survivor is a dps. I have no trouble finding parties :p
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You've got 45 posts and you decided to speak for all survivors. Are you saying that killers aren't complaining too? Are you saying that complaining on the forums is the proper metric to measure satisfaction? Do you think killers enjoy face camping?
Just seems really weird that it appears the hill you chose to die on literally sits next to a similarly sized hill for killers.
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DBD is a competitive game not a party game.😂
It's not meant to be fun if you're trying to have fun in a video game you have to play something else.
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Killers stopped having fun a long time ago. MMR obliterated the enjoyment for many killers. That's why so many dropped off. I played for the first time in 4 months during the event and it was pure misery. Jumped to survivor and had more fun, but got bored and now I'm done after 3 days of playing.
Many casual killers quit, and now you are stuck with more campers because the pool became less watered down and those who stuck around figured out camping and tunneling was the best tactic in MMR.
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I love when people speak in my name.
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I want everyone to see these two responses to my forum post. I didn't say anything inflammatory about killer players, yet I immediately get attacked as if I did say something inflammatory about killer players. I asked to not make this an us vs them thread and it immediately becomes an us vs them thread. I even said I'm glad the developers are looking at helping killer players.
There are issues survivor players are having, they need to also get addressed.
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Your first paragraph is a major part of it. As a killer, I see survivors screwing each other over constantly (DCs, suiciding on hook, farming hooks, etc). As a survivor, I see myself constantly losing teammates to DCs, suicides on hook, and getting pulled off the hook when the killer hasn't had two seconds to even try to walk away. Whether the killer was a "bad sport" with camping/tunneling or not, far too many survivors are doing the "shove a stick in their own bike tire, crashing, and yelling DAMN KILLERS!!!!" meme.
There are absolutely issues (for both sides) but in my experience at least, many of the survivor issues are self inflicted wounds.
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I play survivor. I have a great deal of fun. What's with this sweeping statement?
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I'm glad you have fun as a survivor. I run a discord server and one of the largest games on there is a DbD. These are the complaints I'm hearing from my friends, who play survivor and even from other discord users who also play survivor.
But tell me something, do you have fun when you are face-camped at gen 5? I'm not asking if you forget about it and go to the next game. I'm asking, do you have fun when you are face-camped at gen 5? Do you feel the game is fair, when a killer can camp you at gen 5 and completely keep you from playing the game?
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Survivors on forum: every match is facecamper
Me Killer Main plays surv every night: has not seen facecamper in awhile, only play soloq and have matches I escape without even getting hit.
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Because they spend more time on discord complaining instead of getting better at the game. Most likely also bring about the camping on themselves by the way they play.
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I too have a discord server and one of the games we play is dbd. You know what we do when we aren't having fun in dbd? We play something else.
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Echo chamber at its finest~
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Survivor mains have been enjoying the crutches and braindead loops for a long time, not to mention the possibilitu of swf, but even at solo if the survivors played for atleast a bit, if the survivors have a bad game is because they played bad, not the killer, survivor remains easier and fun
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I did not make this us vs them, nor did I attack you. Calm down.
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Lol man. I usually try to go for as many hooks as possible because I find fighting through BT and DS annoying, but if I do that and end up with 4 - 5 hooks and 0 - 1 kills cause I'm playing a weak killer, the map sucks, and I'm on console at a disadvantage, I get teabagged, flashlight clicked, and told gg ez almost every time. Why should I give a ######### about your fun again?
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If killers cry enough it isnt gonna make it to live
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getting tbag & flashlight clicked is not as oppressive as face camping or tunneling so dont compare the two.
you can do something about survivors but when a killer decides to just sit there... nothing you can do since its so forced upon and you have to play by them now.
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Yeah, I don't care about face camping. I've been playing PvP multiplayer games my entire adult life. It's a bad match. Every game has bad matches from time to time. Shrug and move on, it's hardly a world ending experience like people make it out to be.
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You absolutely shouldn't, no one would. Even if survivors didn't do all of that stuff, you still wouldn't care about survivors fun.
So asking a killer-main to fix the game for survivor-mains would be absolutely insane. In fact, asking for killer-mains input on a situation that is entirely a survivor problem, would also be insane. In fact, killer-mains input on a survivor problem will be obviously be useless.
If survivors are continually complaining on these forums about face-camping and tunneling at gen 5. Then survivors-players are seeing a problem and telling the developers there's a problem. There not here asking for killer-mains to fix the problem, they're asking the developers to fix the problem.
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On a more serious note, I've had Survivors DC more often when they got hit by a butter Shred on a car than when I tunneled/camped them
Post edited by ThatOneDemoPlayer on5 -
"Do you think Killers enjoy face camping?"
Seeing how rampant it is and how much they gloat in the forums and postgame chat, yes I do believe they enjoy it.
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I could only give you my personal feelings on the matter, because unlike OP I do not speak for an entire swathe of the community, but as a competitive player face camping is a last resort that means the combination of map/survivor strategy left me with no other options. I'd much rather actually play the game.
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I think this is a bit of event induced problem. Once the event is done it will for the most part simmer down. Unless it's an allergic to walking Bubba, those will remain a rare species of killers.
Yes, just because something has been on the PTB for 2 days, it qualifies as a new meta. 🤡 No way things might get changed, nope.
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There are clips of survivors taking 3+ endurance hits in a row on the PTB in non-manufactured environments, I'm not sure what else could be given to satisfy "having fun" short of being able to fly around the map or have a gun/weapon to stun the killer.
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I run a facecamping bubba twitch stream.
1 mistake, 1 chase and your game is over? Welcome to the killer experience.
I am not here to play pin the tail on the donkey with a bunch of survivors. I kill, therfore I am. Killer.
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Sadly thats not the mindset of the majority. Just look at this forum, how many people defend camping?
I understand camping during EGC because there isnt much to do but when people defend camping and tunneling outside of very concise situations its because they are enjoying it, I play Killer too and I dont like camping so I almost never do it, I would never defend camping as a valid general strategy because I dislike it, people who reason its the only way to play dont even care to ask for fixes, they always defend how much of a valid strategy it is, not how in dire need of changes the system is.
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Defending camping and enjoying it are two completely different things. Camping creates pressure when other tools fail, because it forces survivors to come to the killer - it does not mean it is enjoyable.
Edit: You are also picking and choosing arguments. There are plenty of threads where people justified camping and explained what they would need to no longer camp. This "people who reason its the only way to play dont even care to ask for fixes" is utterly false. There are a littany of threads that contradict you.
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I always shake my head at any posts that, whether purposefully or inadvertantly, group all "killers" or "surviviors" together as a hive mind, as if there's newsletters and custom jackets that go out to people playing the role as if everyone thinks the same. Most people -- at least the ones who want to get the most out of the game (and certainly, those who want to get better at it) -- play both roles. And that's what they are -- not "killers" or "survivors", but individual people who're playing a role in a video game. No more or less.
Speaking only from my own experience -- since I'll certainly acknowlege that there are people who play either role who don't enjoy the game for one reason or another -- I've enjoyed playing survivor more in the last month (and during the event) than I have since I started playing the game two years ago.
That's mainly due to getting better after having put in enough hours on both ends. I run more meme builds now than ever before, I occasionally (when with my SWF group) play perkless or with No Mither as a challenge, and my solo survivor experience is usually pretty good -- I crammed in a bunch of matches this morning before the event ended, with far more escapes than deaths (and the deaths, with the exception of one match, ended up with 2-3 other people escaping). It's been stress-free and fun, and I find far less intensity in that role than when I play killer. I pipped to Rank 1 faster this month than I have in any month since they changed the Grade system.
To answer another question -- is it fun to be face-camped or tunneled? Not especially, though if my getting face-camped or tunneled means my other teammates get out (even in solo), then that's a "win" on my end. But it doesn't happen with the frequency that some people claim it does -- there are stretches where there's a number of bad matches, but that's to be expected -- no one can expect every game to be great for everyone all around. That's simply not realistic, not should it be, in a game where there's invariably going to be winners and losers in a match. But I'm skeptical of people who're claiming it's happening every match, just as I'm skeptical of people who claim every match they have as killer is against a loaded SWF, or every survivor match is against Nurse or Blight, etc., etc. (as that's not my experience, and I play a LOT of matches).
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Its not defending it, its they way people defend it, as I said, I understand doing it in certain circumstances like EGC or 1 person hooked, 3 fluttering around the hook, I wouldnt criticize camping there, but when people defend doing it from minute 0? thats because they are enjoying it, you dont need to camp to win especially not against Solos, I dont camp, I win plenty of matches and I play Myers mostly yet they defend its the only way.
The whole "I wouldnt camp if I didnt have too..." argument is a bit moot, people lie a lot and while there are threads like those they usually end up swarmed by the "camping is the only way!!" crowd, the ones who dont really want to change it but they feel like they have to justify themselves.
Lets see after the base change mechanics like extra 10 seconds per gen, less CD after extra attack, less sprint after being hit if the people keep camping or not, my guess is the vast majority of campers will still camp, I wish I was wrong but the community has shown plenty of times they will always go through the path of less resistance and camping being made stronger will justify it even more.
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To answer another question -- is it fun to be face-camped or tunneled? Not especially, though if my getting face-camped or tunneled means my other teammates get out (even in solo), then that's a "win" on my end. But it doesn't happen with the frequency that some people claim it does -- there are stretches where there's a number of bad matches, but that's to be expected -- no one can expect every game to be great for everyone all around. That's simply not realistic, not should it be, in a game where there's invariably going to be winners and losers in a match. But I'm skeptical of people who're claiming it's happening every match, just as I'm skeptical of people who claim every match they have as killer is against a loaded SWF, or every survivor match is against Nurse or Blight, etc., etc. (as that's not my experience, and I play a LOT of matches).
You agree that being camped within 1 step and tunneled at gen 5 is not fun. Do you feel that being camped within 1 step and being tunneled at gen 5 is necessary?
I think camping and tunneling as the game progresses is fine, I'm not saying that should go away.
But, at gen 5, there isn't any strategy in that, it doesn't need to be part of the game and is very unfun for the survivor. Why is it a problem to ask for an issue a large number of survivor players find unfun to be fixed, you included.
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For very good reasons they are not. Everything has been taken away from the survivor role, BHVR shows an extreme preference to the killer role with continuous and never-ending killer buffs. The survivor objective is going to become even less likely to be completed, buffing gen regression perks (Overcharge to unprecedented levels). It's too easy for killers to down survivors with no counterplay in majority of situations. Survivors constantly nerfed and poor killer gameplay heavily encouraged (ie. Bloodlust buffed).
Camping is also being buffed. The game feels extremely unfair when playing survivor and BHVR has done nothing to improve that, only make it worse.
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No, I don't think getting camped or tunneled at 5 gens is necessary. When I play killer, I don't do that. Your point?
Has it happened to me before? Absolutely. Going down against a Bubba early, getting drug to the basement and face-camped right out of the gate isn't particularly enjoyable. It happens. I can live with it, because as I said, it happens infrequently to me -- and I play in the ballpark of 30 hours a week, split across both roles -- that I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
It's not a "problem" to want to see something changed, and I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I either said or suggested that it is -- I on;y shared MY experiences, no more. One of us is lumping the thoughts and experiences of everyone in a certain role together (hint: it's not me). What I will say is that, until there's a mechanism in the game to encourage that to NOT happen -- and one that isn't inherently abusable -- then it'll happen again, and I'm chalk it up to a bad game and move on to the next. It doesn't mean I'm going to enjoy that match, but I'm not going to dwell on it either.
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One of us is lumping the thoughts and experiences of everyone in a certain role together (hint: it's not me).
Am I wrong though. Do you think any person who plays survivor has fun being camped out of the game at gen 5. I think we can globally say that all survivors don't have fun being camped out of the game at gen 5. A vast majority of them probably think it's unfair also.
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You're literally arguing with yourself at this point. I already said that it wasn't. I also said I've had more fun (and had better results) playing survivor in the last month or so than at any point since I picked up the game two years ago. My experiences, which I made sure to qualify. That seems to be your problem with what I've said (or at least, that's the clear inference I'm getting), since at no point have I said or suggested that it's "fun" to be camped or tunneled at 5 gens, or that you're wrong in saying it isn't "fun" for the person involved.
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Are you able to insert yourself into the killers head to understand? Some may be trolls, others had several bad games in a row and now they're at their wits end on maps like Eeyre, Badham Preschool, and Mothers Dwelling.
I think it takes quite an ego to assume all these incidents of facecamping aren't just part-time killers without the proper toolset and long-time killers not burnt out from W'ing over and over across gigantic maps. But just like you have a different experience as killer, I would say it's not about you.
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So, I can take it that all of the calls to nerf Nurse, the best killer in the game (and THE best beneficiary of the change to DS, a change I myself was not in favor of), is something you'd be in favor of, right? With things as bad as you claim, bringing the hammer onto the OP killer of all killers is something you'd go on record as being in favor of, correct?
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Camping within 1 step of the hook and/or tunneling someone out is an issue for survivors and makes a miserable game play experience. Just as killers need to fun in the game, so should survivors. Both can have enjoyable game play experiences.
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When I play in a swf I have fun but solo is about 50/50 just depending on who I get teamed with, I don't mind anything the killer does in the trial because anything that's not hacking is fair game and I've probably done the same to someone else as a killer before, the best way to have fun is to make friends and then don't take the game seriously just do whatever you enjoy doing with the role you're playing, the only person stopping you from having fun is yourself because you're choosing to let it get to you.
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Honestly I think nerfing dead hard to oblivion was the only thing needed, not overbuffing killers with basekit buffs and longer gens, they're changing too many things
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Of course Im able to insert into the Killers head, I play Killer too, lately Ive been playing it even more than Survivor because Solo is hell and I dont have any friends playing this game to make a SWF, I play Myers, Jigsaw and Deathslinger, Im perfectly aware you get Mother's Dwelling you are in for a world of hurt but guess what? I still dont camp because I dont dont enjoy it, I still perform well enough tho.
I still believe people who defend camping as "ITS THE ONLY WAY!!!" without really offering any alternatives are not going to stop doing it and they actually enjoy it, mainly because it gives them wins, there is a player profile "Spike" who gets gratification only when they win no matter what, those are the people who tend to chose the path of less resistance, Spikes wont stop camping until camping is less rewarding, they enjoy it because it gives them easy wins against Solos.
The new changes just made it even more rewarding since Survivors now need more time to fix the gens so camping will be stronger ergo those folks will camp even harder. Lets see if all those threads about "ITS THE ONLY WAY, GIVE US BETTER TOOLS, MAKE MINI-POP BASE, MAKE REGRESSION STRONGER, MAKE CHASES EASIER, NERF DH FOR DISTANCE" were people speaking the truth or just people lying to justify themselves.
P.D. Feel free to throw this whole conversation into my face in a few months (assuming Im still playing this game), I will gladly eat my words.
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Couple of issues with your points are
survivor queue times are still long comparative to killer, this varies by time and region but generally so. This shows there is still a survivor bias in player population.
complaints piling up on the forums is a quasi form of survivorship bias. People predominately come here to complain, if you don’t have an issue with the game you probably aren’t here on the forums complaining about it. (survivorship bias is a genuine mathematical principle and has nothing to with playing survivor, just making this point for the dumblocks.)
Are dc’s and suicide on hook really going up or are players that do those things starting to get sorted into their respective mmr groups. If you rage quit all the time you probably don’t have a great mmr rating it only takes a few losses as survivor to wind up stuck with these kinds of players.
The new changes are a healthy shake up of the game, we’ll see how things change as a result. The sky isn’t falling.
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If you say you're able to insert yourself into the killers head, but then make it about you, I'm going right back to my last response: It's not about you.
Plenty of alternatives have been offered, BHVR just hasn't seen fit to make those alternatives a reality. Like I said, this is not a new topic.
Edit: You highlighted all the changes to the killer side and not the survivor side, there is a very real possibility that OTR plays so strongly that killers feel they still need to camp, in spite of the gen and DH nerfs.
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I do believe Nurse has already been nerfed several times, way more than any other killer. The real issue is how all killers have been indirectly buffed where all it takes is a decent killer to level down every team. Nurse is only too strong because survivor objective is too difficult to complete against a high mobility killer with aura reading and slowdown. Blight and Huntress downs survivors extremely quickly too, a good one does with hardly any counterplay. Now with the gens having a big increase to 90 seconds (yes, 10 seconds for each gen is enormous) then where are the survivor buffs to compensate against less cooldowns against killers? Are the maps going to be increased with more pallets? Will survivors run a little faster?
With Iron Will being destroyed (exhaustion actually disabling the perk), then stealth was also nerfed.
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The queues really depend a lot, in Europe at morning and evening Killers have queues almost always, they can go from 20 seconds to 7 minutes, usually around 2-3 or so, and this is after they made the change to matchmaking where they broadened the pool of players which made queues shorter, queues for Killers start to go away around ~21:30.
And the changes... Ive seen the PTB videos, from Killer perspective stacking endurance is a pain to deal with and SWFs are going to mow down a lot of average players, from Survivor side, have you seen the videos where a Wraith was able to regress gens over and over and over? Solo is going to get smashed, then you have all the changes on already busted Killers like Nurse or Blight.
If they dont dial back on certain stuff this patch could be the first nail in the coffin, I dont think Solos will endure the new forever matches meta for a lot of time and then its going to be queues for Killers only to face SWFs who will stack endurance and curbstomp them, this could spiral into people quitting for greener pastures.
If I can perform well enough to not need camping to win with allegedly weaker Killers, everyone can, Im not a godly player, obviusly sometimes I lose and get 4E but 99% of times it was because I made too many mistakes, almost never the Survivor strategy or the map leaves camping as the last resort unless its EGC or they are fluttering around the hook, if someone comes to that conclussion on normal gameplay either they are bad and refuse to instrospect on their mistakes or deep down, they enjoy the easy wins.
The alternatives a lot of people have offered are what they have implemented, minipop, stronger regression, increased gen times and easier chases, its what gets suggested almost always in those threads (im yet to see someone except myself suggesting the Home Sweet Home treatment for downs, with tweaks of course), now lets see if they really wanted alternatives or camping made stronger.
I highlighted Killer changes because its what the people demanded to stop camping, the Survivor changes are not really related and they are there as a soft deterrant for camping, I doubt theyll have any effect for the Killer base buffs outperform the anticamping base nerfs.
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I screw up as survivor and I feel like I still have several chances if I'm unhooked in the first stage. I screw up as killer and I'll probably have to play in a manner which survivors tell me is unfun to get a sacrifice.
I would love to hook everyone once before going for round two but if you at all try to force it the games design says you lose.
As killer we generally do not have the time to offer kindness. I try to not camp and tunnel but I am sure not going to give freebies.
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You are assuming I don't have 1,000+ hours as survivor and 1000+ hours as killer. Again, this is something that should be addressed to improve the survivor experience. Survivors and Killers both deserve to have fair and fun games.
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You can have as many hours as you want and still be incorrect, biased, and narrow minded.
These are not mutually exclusive ideas.
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