I am staggered by how many people don't like the removal of BP bonuses from WGLF/BBQ.
Seriously, what the heck ? Whether the new grind reduction is actually good enough and accomplishes what we wanted it to do well is a separate topic (All they had to do was remove perk tiers lol), but with it being mostly better, and the new matchmaking incentives, the overall bp gain and grind definitely won't be worse even without the bonuses from these perks. Regardless, did people actually like using those ? How ?! You had to run these perks or you were actively robbing yourself of bp, it was annoying if you couldn't get the perk since you felt cheated out of bp due to pure luck and annoying even if you got it since you actually had 3 perk slots instead of 4 and the game was actively punishing you for every match you chose to opt for a different perk by reducing your rewards by half. It was unhealthy as it made the whole grind revolve around it and substantially reduced build variety. Them addressing the core systems and finally removing this reliance on a single perk (per role) for efficient play is just straight up a good thing and it boggles my mind how people miss it. I remember letting out an audible sigh of relief when reading those perk changes and thinking to myself "FINALLY ! After 5 years my builds won't be handicapped. The game will be way better off thanks to it".
So yeah, I don't understand why so many people are going to miss it.
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If they made a perk that would only increase BP, I would use it.
I don't like grind, I like to do it as fast as possible. It will take me twice more games with this, so I don't like it, simple as that.
They grind reduce clearly didn't do anything, it's same / worse for most players and we are going to need twice more games for same amount of BP.
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Basically, few people really think the new progression system will be faster than the current one, and those perks significantly speed up the grind. Most people believe the grind will be the same, and in some cases worse, only now they won't have bonus BP given by perks that used to aid in this issue.
That's why.
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A lot of it is simply poor logic. As evidenced by the first response you got there are still people who think those two perks equal 100% more BP, when in reality it obviously isn't.
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Another reason they don't like it is because they don't like the replacement: Getting a bonus for playing killer or survivor based on how needed the role is.
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I don't think people necessarily feel bad about the removal of BP from those perks in general, and more the consistent value of being able to get 40-64k of BP per match without needing offerings.
Perk gain aside, gaining a max of 32k per match feels low - it's about a single bloodweb at level 50 and people still enjoy earning offerings/items/add-ons, etc.
I absolutely entirely agree with BHVRs reasoning that having double bloodpoints assigned to perks is a bad idea - because you're right, it makes the player feel they 'have' to run it to gain progression, but there's the other argument there that I think BHVR whilst considering, haven't entirely thought through, and that's WHY people feel the need to run them, and I don't think gaining perks was the sole reason, I think it's that actually, earning more than 40k-ish BPs per match just 'feels' better. Progression through bloodwebs, for whatever reason, just feels slow when the average you're earning per match is about 18-25k on survivor and 25k+ on killer.
I personally think they would be much better off tying double BPs into basekit and encouraging healthy mechanics via it. You hook all survivors once? Great - have double BPs, no perk necessary. You do a mix of generators/saving/running the killer - great you get some extra BPs too, granted, making sure farming your team-mates isn't an incentive is a more difficult balance on the survivor side. I actually think a 'team based' objective to get Double BP would be better, though tying that in with people leaving the game before it's done is slightly harder
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People aren’t happy because doubling the grind is not the answer when them game is already so grindy. They should have doubled bp gains to compensate for the change.
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Sure I’d be delighted to not have to run wglf or bbq… if what was replacing the whole system was serviceable and not straight up worse. Like the prestige tax? Really?
Furthermore getting other people into the game was hard as it stood because of the grind and new players are hit the hardest by the changes by far since the gains only come in at the end and in some cases not at all if you only play a few survivors and/or killers.
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We people just wanted the effects of the bp gain from those perks to be a base kit mechanic. Instead, BHVR made an incentive mechanic that isn't a reliable way for gaining bp due to forcing players to possibly play a side they do not want to play. This is the same reason that some people already do not complete all of their daily rituals.
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You actually answered your question while asking it.
People don't like removal of BP bonus from BBQ and WGLF because grind is ridiculous, they made it even worse WITHOUT TAKING BP BONUS FROM PERKS INTO CONSIDERATION, and on top of that they actually removed the bonus.
You're only partially right about tiers removal. There are still add-ons that will be tremendously harder to farm without BP bonus.
What would solve pretty much everything is either cutting prices in the bloodweb in half OR adding bonus BP from BBQ an WGLF to base kit.
Simple as that.
If they actually remove BBQ and WGLF - I'm gone. Also watch people walk away just like I might. I'm tired and sick of the BS that grind is.
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I and other people did math behind it and find out their grind reduction as based on how many characters you want to play.
For me as survivor it increased by 20% instead and I play about 5 killers, so grind is same there for me.
I have played most of my games with BBQ and I focused to get 4 stacks in those games, so for me it is 100% more BP unless I screwed it in that game.
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Does not change the fact that BBQ is not a guaranteed 100% BP, WGLF less so and the people who use 100% more BP in their argument are being disingenuous. Regardless, putting BP riders on only one perk for each side is terrible game design. OP has the right of it.
I'm not addressing the rest, it's not on topic.
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I'm actually okay with it because I've been saying for years that survivors need an equivalent to BBQ's usefulness for year and while people liked to pretend WGLF was an equivalent, it never was even after they added new ways to get stacks. Let's look at the 2 perks:
BBQ: Literally only have to hook each person once to get all 4 stacks. On top of that, you get an aura read and can see where every survivor outside of 40 meters is located for 5 seconds which on the best killers, is all the time you need. Now unspoken on top of that, if you only see one aura, it's relatively safe to assume that the other two are hiding in lockers (not making progress) or they're close by which some killers can then use as an excuse to proxy camp
You take all that versus WGLF: Up until patch 4.3 (Perform a safe hook rescue or take a protection hit to gain stacks which meant you had to lose health states or be the first one to the hook FOUR separate time to get that 100% bonus) Eventually and very recently, they added in stunning or blinding the killer and gave it the secondary effect of healing a dying survivor faster.
When you look at the two perks side by side, they're not even comparable. On one hand you have a perk that you get naturally by just playing the game and doing what you're supposed to do (hook people) and you get aura reading and other info out of it. On the other side, you have a perk where you have to go out of your way to take hits for your bonus BP and that's all you get in return. It's a night and day difference on TOP of the fact that killers naturally earn more BP per game regardless of perks. So both of those perks can be gutted of their BP effect for all I care
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I know results of my games during anniversary. I have played around 50 hours as a killer, all with BBQ and I remember only 4 games where I failed to get 4 stacks -> I had 2/3. and that was because of challenges and I played pig / clown.
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Cool story. Personal anecdotes make not for a compelling argument.
Nor do they change anything I said.
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Actually... no. You could gain WGLF stacks by blinding or pallet stun rescue teammates from the very release of the perk.
Most people simply were not aware of that. So the devs had to mention it, like its something new. But it wasn´t. The only thing that got buffed with 4.3 was the increased pick up speed. Nothing more.
On top of that, it was always much, much easier to get 4 WGLF stacks than 4 BBQ stacks. With BT, you could get 3 WGLF stacks in a single, not so safe unhook. Absolutely not comparable to getting BBQ stacks, which could even completely denied by a survivor who disconnected before the killer got the first hook.
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Even with one less BP slot, 100% bonus bp were definitely more fun than abyslam base BP gain.
Hell, I'd say without addons and lot of BPs this game is boring as ######### to the point I can consider quiting.
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Personal anecdotes make not for a compelling argument.
personal experience is not good for you, mathematical evidence neither.
Oh right, because your opinion on that topic is not based on personal experience and you have something to prove it.
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On the first point, cool I didn't know that. I still don't think it's comparable
As far as the second point, I hard disagree that it's easier to get WGLF stacks.
- you have to compete with other survivors so if someone else gets that unhook before you, no stack for you.
- Again, you have to go out of your way to take hits for someone else who is injured whereas BBQ stacks literally just come to you for playing the game. I can't recall a single recent game where I haven't been able to catch and hook everyone at least once.
- None of that negates the fact that with the BP bonus removed from both perks, one perk is still an A tier perk while the other is D tier at best
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BBQ is not A tier perk with just an aura reading. There is not many killers where BBQ will be actually good perk for them.
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Well. BBQ typically meant 100% more BP unless you got wrecked, someone was hardcore stealthing, or you chose not to spread hooks. I would say I get 4 stacks in 90% of my games. I think you're underestimating how consistent BBQ is. WGLF, not so much.
But yeah, as others have said, they didn't reduce the grind enough for removing those perks to produce a net positive. I didn't really struggle with perks that much, so while this is helpful to me on new chapters, it's also making addons and items more of a nuisance and I don't like that at all.
I like that I don't feel glued to a particular perk anymore, but I was hoping they'd make the bloodpoint bonuses basekit, and I'd rather have them in perk form than not at all.
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- sure thats why i recommend doing:
- going for a not so safe unhook, which ends with you getting downed = 3 stack. Of course, only once the match is almost over and the amount of possible unhooks/body blocks is greatly diminished.
- WGLF is the A tier and BBQ the D tier perk, right? Because that aura reading will become completely useless, since other perks do that much, much better.
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We are rather shocked that they didn't just make the BP gains basekit. They straight up nuked it.
On top of it, you cannot stay on Lvl 50 anymore, you are now forced to prestige and get less and more low rarity Items and on top you also have to pay in order to prestige. You basically spend 50 k for 1 Prestige, which means that once you are P 10, you've already given up 500 k just for resetting your Bloodweb.
If you manage to hit P 100, you've spent 5 Million BP for just prestiging.
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When I play, I really don't focus that much on kills and escapes. I'm more focused on BP. If I get lots of BP, I don't care about the rest as much. See, when I did play I only had so many hours in a week to play. Therefore, I needed to rake the BP in fast so I can actually get somewhere.
Most casual players don't have 20 hrs a week to play. Those BP perks were really nice for assisting in getting that perk, or a few addons, etc. By removing those BP bonuses from those perks, and the grind not being as reduced as they thought, it really discourages many from investing time for less payoff.
I think it was a bad move.
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Loosing the only option to speed up the grind by the player itself is something you cant comprehend?
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I can definitely understand part of their reasoning for doing so: by giving you bonus BP these Perks made it on a lot of builds despite not actually belonging there, hindering your freedome in creating loadouts, because you always had to reserve that one spot for the grind reduction.
That being said, they should have made the BP boni a basekit feature. Removing them alltogether was a bad move IMO, one that primarily hurts newer players who need to get through the grind of unlocking the baseline of required Perks to be able to stand a chance out there.
But as someone who has pretty much everything maxed out already anyway, yes this is barely going to affect me. In fact I have stopped running BBQ on most my Killerbuilds anyway, unless the Perks aura reading has a good synergy with the Killers power (e.g. Hillbilly, Blight or Dredge).
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I don’t mind using a perk slot for 2x BP at all, especially when it gives you other benefits like aura reading for BBQ. A lot of other players fee the same way. The reason I feel so upset about the change is that nobody was asking for it, BHVR just decided as they usually do that they know better about what the players want than the players themselves. Their justification for taking it away was “oh we didn’t want players to use a perk slot just for BP bonus” and “well, we gave you a grind reduction”. Note that both of those justifications have nothing to do with player feedback. I was just fine using a perk slot for extra BP and now I don’t even have the option because BHVR decided that I shouldn’t have that option
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My "perk grind" for the last chapter involved unlocking Darkness Reveled on the Dredge, while purposely keeping Dredge's other two perks locked. Then I did a few bloodwebs on Blight and Nurse to give them the new perk. That was my entire perk grind for the last chapter, and it was pretty much done on day 1 or 2 of the chapter. Besides that, my entire grind are addons, which this grind rework flat out made worse.
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I think it would be amazing for BHVR to release statistics on the #unique survivors hooked per game, as a means to actually measure BBQs efficacy, I suspect it will be lower than most people claim.
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BBQ has a 42% use rate
WGLF has a 11% use rate
Using either of them doesnt guarantee you get a full 4 stacks, in my experience, I'd say that happens about 75% of the time for BBQ and less for WGLF.
So globally, that means BBQ is only providing an avg. of about +30%, and WGLF only about +5%, bonus BP.
The new role incentive bonus will provide a minimum of +25% for one role or the other, and rise to +100% as the queue discrepancy rises. Particularly during peak hours as most will be playing survivor due to SWF availability, essentially giving killers a basekit +100% BP bonus during peak times.
This won't simply "balance out" queues until there's no bonus, because most players will still play their preferred role, not the role with the biggest bonus. Otherwise, if players were so concerned with their bonus BP, WGLF would have more than an 11% use rate.
So you'll probably find that these role bonuses will be more or less comparable to the BBQ/WGLF bonuses. They'll disproportionately favour killers, frequently give +100%, and to top it off, they won't be wasting a perk slot.
Sure it's a drawback if you don't actually play both sides and won't take advantage of the difference in incentive bonus. But I'd much rather play the role in need without wasting a perk slot on a BP bonus.
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As long as it's stratified by MMR, sure. Extreme low and extreme high is probably much lower than middling MMR.
Though it's also going to be thrown off by players who make no attempt to hook everyone (i.e., facecamping, revenge tunneling, afking, challenge farming), so I'd take it with a grain of salt regardless. A person who runs BBQ for the bloodpoints is going to have a different playing pattern than someone running, say, an endgame build.
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So the OP hasn't seen the thread proving mathematically that the new grind is actually worse.
Even disregarding that, the 50kBP just to unlock the "privilege" of crappy brown-only small webs for at least 20 levels is a major step backwards. Why do we have a penalty of several matches worth of BP for an enforced prestige that is the only way to get more addons - trash ones at first yes, but still the only way to get addons.
For perks it does look a bit better but we're not all Otz running without addons for most games.
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A lvl50 bloodweb takes around 50k. Getting 32k in a match is very rare as a survivor, but with WGLF you could at least get there...
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Only time I ever used these perks was for the bonus.
The new changes are worse for me in the long run. I only play a few killers and even less survivors. At least now I only have to level up unused characters once to get what I want, with the new system I have to grind and level those same unused characters multiple times for the few I actually use.
Can't speak for other but now I'm not spending any money on characters unless I actually plan to use them regularly. I'm better off waiting for the shrine than grinding them out.
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Why would I be happy that they removed the BP bonuses? They didn't make the BP bonuses basekit. They didn't replace the bonus (no, queue incentives don't count, those are dependent on being able to change roles and there being a large imbalance in the queue, the latter of which the player has no control over), they just took it away.
I play for BBQ stacks. As survivor, WGLF stacks cushion the blow of a miserable match. The bonuses should have been made basekit, there should be an element in the HUD which shows the player how many stacks they've earned in a match. Being happy that we've lost out on a reward and something that increased our enjoyment of the game makes no sense. Earning stacks feels rewarding, way more rewarding than most things in DbD.
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100% increase offerings = Finite
BBQ/WGLF = Infinite
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don't think the dev know what they doing anymore....
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All these arguments miss the mark, just because you can't play the game without malding over "lost" bloodpoints doesn't mean I can't. I lost an option to get more bp when I wanted to grind faster while gaining nothing, you get to play more builds because an artificial restraint you imposed on yourself has been removed.
I have lots of builds that don't have bbq in them, and I never run WGLF on survivor. If anything is robbery it's removing the bp bonus from the perks, if I want to get more bp to grind faster I could run bbq, if I wanted a full meta build I wouldn't. Now everybody who mains one side or another might get some extra bp, or might not, it's totally out of their control, and I don't like it when things in games are arbitrary and out of my control.
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Except its not a separate discussion?? If the grind stays the same or becomes worse (which is the case btw) the removal of bonus bp from perks only makes the grind even harder, so yeah people dont like the changes. Its kinda obvious tbh idk why ur surprised
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Regardless of you think the grind is reduced (I don't think it is) it's also part of the principal of it all.
You say you're wanting to reduce the grind, then add a bunch of stuff that contradicts that. You remove bp bonuses from perks which were a reliable way to get more bp and put the player in control of their additional bp, and replaced it with something that is based upon queue incentives. The problem with this is that it's 100% out of the players control. It's based upon a system that behavior created. So if it's a role you don't want to play, or if there's simply not an imbalance of players, you get nothing. You also don't control how much of a bonus you get. It could constantly be a 25% bonus and then what?
We did want the queue incentives, but that was in addition to what we already have. We didn't ask to have our ability to earn bp cut drastically, and then add in a smaller bonus to play a role we don't want to play.
Then you make prestiging mandatory, not a bad move by itself. Then require you to pay bp to prestige, knowing that it's now mandatory.
None of this shows that they want to reduce the grind. It looks like a clever way to keep it the same and possibly increase it, while trying to convince their players that they're trying to help reduce their grind. Because they have this insane thought that it's the grind that's keeping players. It's not.
My second big issue is their reasoning behind it. "To keep players from having to feel like it's required to run it."
If that was the case you would've just made the 100% baseline. Instead of 32k being the max you could earn, make it 64k and change the scoring events to reflect that. You know, the same base 32k that hasn't changed in over 5 YEARS....
People didn't just run it for the BP. They ran it because it always has been, and will remain to be one of the best aura reading perks. Second only to infectious fright really.
It's the only aura reading perk that can activate 10+ times a match, with no cooldown, and shows you multiple auras, mainly those that are not near you. It allows you to be able to see where to go after hooking someone so that you can maintain pressure.
No other perk outside of infectious does this better, and yet that aspect wasn't touched. So a lot of people will probably still run it once people realize no other perk does what it does as good as it does, and I don't see it's usage dropping like they think it would.
If that was really their intention, they would've reworked it to be completely different. No it feels more like they wanted to increase the grind for anyone that didn't already have everything unlocked, or close to it. So they can say they reduced the grind! But in actuality it's much much longer for new players or even experienced players that are just still working on leveling characters up.
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The removal of BP in the two main offending perks is one of, if not he most important outcome of this forthcoming release.
It's poor perk design and poor game design.
It should have already happened long ago.
If you are feeling upset that you are not earning enough pretend currency in a video game, then there are plenty of other avenues the devs can handle this - in a perk should not be one of them.
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Bp is half the reason I play Idc what I spend it on I just as much as I can get
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I am upset because survivor bloodpoints gains are awful and were gonna live forever helped with getting enough every game
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A lot of it is plain frustration with how the "grind reduction" is being handled. This isn't a monthly sub MMO. We bought it, let us use it when we want. Imagine buying Overwatch and having to grind most of the roster's abilities through multiple tiers. It's wild that I can buy a killer and then have them be essentially unusable for a week until I unlock good perks for them. And all the grind rework does to get around that is force me to grind BP for characters I don't even play. I have to grind to reduce the grind.
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It'd be fine if they removed the bonus but offered an equal alternative.
The BP bonus is not an equal alternative since it requires me to play a role that in 90% of the cases I don't want to play in that moment.
Plus, I did personally liked the BBQ aura reading, yes, other perks reveal auras in a better way or for longer, but BBQ shows it at the right time, when I hook a survivor and I need to find another one to chase.
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The grinds only reduced in the instance of trying to get new perks. I have all the perks I want, so it's increased for me.
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Removing the bonus from the perks is great but removing the bonus from the game is not.
All they had to do was make the effects from BBQ and WGLF base kit so you earned the bonus the same way.
Getting to lvl 50 costs the same with the old or the new system but with the opportunity to earn less per match.
Playing one to four character on either side the grind has increased as to get the perks you need 10 more levels and it takes more matches to get there.
Even if they were not used every game they were great for when they were needed like when a new chapter came out. It just felt more rewarding.
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I agree with you. Honestly I think people simply doesn't like it when they perceive they taking something away from them.
The logic is something like:
Pre patch, no BBQ: regular grind
Pre patch, with BBQ: 2x faster grind
Post patch as intended: 2.5x faster grind
Post patch with BBQ untouched: 5x faster grind?
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Wait, give me back my BP bonus perks!!!
They don't realize they were prisoners of a perk or else and that a lot of players did felt that way, they wanted to run other perks, but alas, they just didn't want to renounce the BP gain.
Personally I like this aspect of the patch and hope it go's through.
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Everyone wanted to get rid of the meta, so how get killers to stop using BBQ as much if BPs would still be there? It was a needed change.
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Being rewarded for catching everybody once both feels good AND rewards gameplay that survivors are less likely to feel bad about going against.
It's a win-win and its removal diminishes the game as a whole. They needed to loop those effects into base game changes, not strip them out completely.
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Yeah it shouldn't require 1 perk for a BP bonus to get worthwhile points.
If they want to remove it fine but it needs to be coupled with cost reduction in the blood web and an overall increase in BP gain in general.
Without these two things it's just losing one way to get extra BP's and lessen the grind.
I know they are reworking the blood web and the prestige system but what about post game BP rewards are they getting a general bump too?
I'm sure a lot of the pissy salt in this game revolves around bringing 12K worth of addons/offerings and getting only 5-7k points due to a crappy game. Sometimes this scenario is out of your control due to the non-participation/elimination mechanics at DBD's core.
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