Can something finally be done about camping?
Literally first two games of the day I get campers. Both times I used party streamers. How is this enjoyable. I would love to know why the devs think this should be a strategy at all? Also I am posting the screenshots to show that you don't need to be a bubba to be able to camp, as showcased in the game with Freddy.
I still remember that comment where the devs said they don't want tunneling and camping to go because they add to the "fear of the game, because what if this match I get camped" (something along those lines)
That is not something you want people to think when going into a match. You know why? Because it limits on what survivors use. If they go in a match with the mindset of "I might get camped/tunneled" they won't bring offerings at all to not have them be wasted and only bring strong perks that can help in those cases. It's the same with killers going into a match with the mentality of "these survivors are a 4-man SWF that will genrush me", because then they just bring the best perks in the game to deal with that scenario in their head.
So I want the devs, especially Patrick, explain to me as to why do they think this is good game design, literally telling survivors "well, you might just not get to participate in the match at all, die and leave with almost no points to your name". That is terrible to tell your playerbase, imagine if any other multiplayer game went "well at one point you might just not get to experience the game at all", do you really think people would play a game where it's a coin toss if they are allowed to actually play the game or not?
Like, this is the reason right here why I want a mode where it's just against bots. Because I wanna play the game, do challenges, go for achievements, earn BP for progression, but I don't wanna do it against players. I want to go against bots that can be programmed to not camp or tunnel at all, because why would they care if they 4k or not anyway.
Anyway, rant over. Just wanted to showcase how annoying this "strategy" is and how tired I am of people making excuses for it not being solved or somehow justified for it existing. Literally nothing has been tried on live and people go "well, there is nothing that can be done, because survivors can exploit it" as if that is some amazing excuse to keep survivors from enjoying the game.
PS. Those two games were in a row and in the Freddy game that was literally my first hook. I play soloq. I don't want people to "just do gens so you can escape". I want to escape! I want to be saved! I don't want a camping solution that goes "well this makes it easier for the rest to escape", I want one that punishes the killer by having everybody escape if they camp. Or at least compensate me with max BP in every category for being camped. At least with 40k BP I know I am safe to bring BP offerings and not feel like they and my time wasn't a complete waste if I get camped.
Comments
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Don't waste your time, devs don't care about single users's experience. And forum users are mostly killer mains that normalized this kind of playstyle.
So my man you have 2 choices, find a comp team to join and pub stomp every match till you get 2x range nurses or become a lame killer yourself.
Be wise my friend
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You know what would be great, either giving survivors a built-in deliverance if the killer has stayed near the hook for X amount of time, or the hook timer coming to a pause if the killer is whatever meters away from the hook for X amount of time. The latter will give the other survivors either more time to save you, or give a notification you're being camped, so they can do gens.
Devs already shared they will be working on notifications for survivors showing what they're doing.
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Ill tell you why this is good game design, cause its a game that gives the Killer a choice on how to be a murderer.
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Emeal this is a game not a real murderer situation, I am literally unable to play the game because of tunneling and camping. If you want to play however you want, ask for a bots mode and go terrorize hapless NPCs that do not care if they die.
Post edited by Rizzo on5 -
The devs have tired everything to to fix camping.
They tired offering killer rewards
They tried punishing killers
They tired giving survivors anticamping buffs.
hasn't worked. See the problem was camping has allays been a problem, but their thought process was ok, killers camp, and sure some times killers will do it just to be pain, but no reasonable person would spend 2 hours a night standing in front of a hook, just to win? Oh boy were they wrong.
Camping is worse now then it has ever been, despite killers being the strongest they have ever been in the history of DBD. Showing nothing but massive game altering design will change this.
Ultimately I don't understand how most games in existence have rules in place to prevent certain strategies form existing, because people acknowledge that if these strategies are allowed they ruin the enjoyment, Draw decks in yugioh, underarm bowls in cricket, Geomancy Xernes in pokemon. Some things just should not exist, and in any other game in existence, people say "Sure, lets make try to take steps to stop this in order to prevent this. But DBD is the one and only game that I have ever seen people, so adamantly fight for right to play that robs enjoyment for everyone involved.
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Camping is usually a result of the killer believing they don't have a way to properly pressure the map on their own. Both shown maps are ones that are survivor-sided, they're both very large maps and a lot of killers don't got good mobility.
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@Icaurs If Killers are the strongest they have ever been, Why are Survivor Flee time when hurt getting reduced, why are Killer successful attack cooldown getting reduced, Why are pallet breaking speed also reduced, Why have bhvr said Killers are not as threatening as intended?
Seems weird to buff Killers when they are 'stronger than they have ever been'?
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Dude I've literally been camped on every map in existence. Not only that, look at the damn gens and hook states. Stop making weak excuses against denying survivors the ability to play the match. Hey, you know what killers can do even when they are likely to lose? Play the match. The survivors aren't locking the killer in a corner until they did all gens. The killer can still move, chase, hook. It's not over, THEY CAN STILL PLAY THE GAME. You know what survivors can do when they are being camped or tunneled? Nothing, because once they are gone there is nothing they can do in that match.
Honestly, killers need to start accepting that not every game is gonna be a 3-4k. On a survivor sided map? Who cares? Do you really wanna go up in MMR that much? Really? Then you are gonna complain about sweat-squads! Like, seriously, just play the game and whatever happens, happens.
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True that looks like Rancid Abattoir and Mother's Dwelling. Those buildings are so not fun to loop.
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They had multiple people injured, still at 4 gens, they were literally not doing bad at all. Maps are not an excuse for unfun gameplay on survivor side.
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Thing is that camping means the killer isn't confident that they can win the game without camping, which is an indicator of another problem.
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Literally just weak excuse. Camping should be removed entirely as a strategy. Survivors ability to play the game should not lie in the hands of killers. Everybody should be able to last the length of the match.
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It's literally a game of elimination. You got caught and eliminated.
You're not entitled to three hook states, you're not entitled to second chances, and you're not entitled to repair every gen and escape. You get to do that by winning, and getting caught by the killer is not winning.
(and you know what? Killers aren't entitled to kills either. Even when camping, it's possible to make a successful hook rescue, or at the very least a hook trade, which then results in resetting the hook timer giving the team more time to do the gens)
Now I totally get that being caught at the start of the game and eliminated by being camped is more than frustrating, but the fact remains that killers do this for a reason. Camping can be more effective than chasing, due to the nature of survivor sided maps, strong loops, chase perks and second chance perks.
This is not a "weak excuse", it's literally the root of the problem. They need to nerf survivor sided maps, strong loops, chase perks and second chance perks, in order to make 'not camping' the more effective strategy.
Even then, there will still be a place for camping, even if killers have every incentive to never camp a survivor out from the start, there will still be the inevitability of end game camping being an essential strategy, and you cannot make that impossible to do or you're putting killers in a lose-lose situation.
The problem here is using 'camping', a broad term that encompasses many different conditions, purely to described 'getting camped on first hook at 5 gens'. That is most certainly bad sportsmanship and overly frustrating for the survivor. But using it in this way discredits all of the scenarios in which camping is a direct result of survivor behaviours. Survivors running the killer back to the hook, survivors rushing the hook while the killer is hooking, survivors looping a killer around the hook, survivors creating a 3-gen by a hooked survivor, and of course at end game, the killer having no other objectives to defend besides the hook. All of these are absolutely legitimate and fair uses of 'camping', and no measure to prevent 'getting camped on first hook at 5 gens' that inhibits any of these can work.
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Let's be honest, the game is going from tilted in the killers favour too to a full on slip and slide, killers get longer gen times, nerfed ds, dh, iron will, spine chill and calm spirit, with a ton of buffs.
There won't be a long wait time for survs anymore, most will switch to killer so they can have an easy time of it, I played 10 games and got camped and tunneled 9 times and I'm a bloody ghost face main, I only wanted to complete surv challenges, this games got no balance, it's either to much in favour for survivors or to much for killers..
Sure buff the killer perks, but leave the survivor perks and gen times alone or come the mid chapter update people will be abandoning the game in droves
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Like I stated several times: hook relocation, so killer have to chase survivors instead of watching a survivor on the hook.
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I'm a killer main although i swf more because being a killer is lonely. I only camp or tunnel for two reasons. If a survivor tbags at every moment the can. I get it. They want to entice me to chase them as their teammates get gens done. If I catch them they're gettin camped. There is 0 need to tbag after every stun. Just keep doing what you're doing. The second reason i camp/tunnel is when i know i might only get 1 or 2 kills max. If 3 gens are done and no ones dead im gonna camp. Because I want to have fun too. Yall wanna live and i wanna kill. If im getting hooks and gens are getting done i have no reason to camp/tunnel. I won't tunnel or camp near start of the match unless someone is being toxic. If in survivor ad i get tunneled or camped then it's time that my teammates have to get gens done. I will never understand (unless it's endgame) why survivors will try and unhook someone as they're getting camped. Get some gens done and then go for the save. The killer is wasting time. Utilize this! If I'm killer and im going to get like 1 or 2 kills me camping somone lets me get some more hooks in. Because other survivors will just trade some hook states and still escape the match.
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Yes: stop playing. If enough people stop, they will do something about it.
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They already have the code built in to PH's cages so it's doable. I still think basement hooks should be static for the drama.
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I wouldn't be against it as a perk with a high cost, similar to Deliverance, but as basekit its just too strong. You are eliminating the possibility for the killer to camp. That's not acceptable, as there are many scenarios in which camping is an entirely legitimate move. However by consuming a perk slot and coming with a secondary cost associated with it, it could be feasible.
For example; When hooked for the first time, your attempts to unhook will have 0% to succeed and consume 50% more life, but will relocate you to a random, non-basement hook further than 40m away from the hook you are currently on and obscure your aura from the killer for 4/5/6 seconds. This ability deactivates when the exit gates are powered.
This would prevent it being abused late game, and it would prevent you from unhooking yourself (so that it can't be combined with Deliverance or Slippery Meat) while making it easier for teammates to reach you first. The other downside would be the 50% additional life cost, effectively consuming a quarter of your life and halving the time before you reach second stage.
This would counter those 'hard camping' scenarios when you are caught early in the game and camped out from your first hook, without preventing legitimate camping strategies on survivors already on their second hook stage and/or late in the game. Yet if you do use it in those scenarios, there's every chance that you could reach second stage, in which case the killer hasn't completely lost out on their attempt to camp, they just haven't completely eliminated you.
Another potential anti-camp survivor perk I've considered is the 'speed up gens' idea that keeps being suggested. As basekit, again, no way, too abusable by coordinated survivors. but as a perk it could work as follows:
When you perform cooperative generator repairs with another survivor, they will receive the buff of [perk name]. If you are subsequently hooked, as long as the killer is within 16m of the hook, any survivors under your [perk name] effect will receive a bonus 15% to their repair speed. You receive a 100% bonus to cooperative score events in the Objective category.
This would simultaneously inform survivors that the killer is camping (they see the buff icon on their screen light up), and provide them with faster repairs to make 'not going for the rescue' the no-brainer move, which is where solo survivors often fall against camping killers. It would also award you with more Objective BP, to make up for being camped while your teammates smash gens.
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Hooks should always be static. Survivors are already capable of denying a hook in the first place and hooks are a huge form of pressure the killer can provide. Hook a survivor in a middle of a 3 gen only to have it teleport away for a free unhook is absolutely unfair to the killer who managed to down a survivor close to the zone he wants to defend and was able to get the hook.
PH only has that mechanic of cage teleportation because cages can be facecamped in a way that prevents being able to free the survivor from the cage and there's no risk of losing the "hook" if PH cages you.
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No one would run a perk that only gives them 45 seconds per hook phase. (Halving the time would be 30 seconds).
Kinship could be ran now, but the issue with Kinship is that it only works in struggle phase and it is not communicated well to your team. If kinship added a yellow meter of additional time to the HUD that teammates could understand it'd be a lot more viable. Also, if it worked in the summoning phase it'd be more viable. Most of the time, camping is done to force two hooks instead of three.
The issues with face-camping are:
the player is denied blood-points
the player is denied gameplay
the payer is dependent on their teammates to get back to playing the game
Any solution to camping would have to address some or all of the three criteria.
(For example, buffing kinship gives the teammates more time to coordinate for a save, Deliverance with basekit BT+Haste enables the player to get back to playing the game in some situations, and giving the camped player bonus blood-points would alleviate some of the frustration, etc.)
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True, it would greatly weaken 3 gen strategies if implemented into the game. There would need to be a lot of game re-balancing if "musical hooks" was chosen as a solution.
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They would if it gave them a higher chance of being rescued.
If you get rescued, it really doesn't mater how long you were on the hook. Survivors will take their 4% when another survivor is running up to them, or their rescuers will stop to finish a near-completed gen before unhooking if they have time left.
In this scenario, you get hooked, you see the killer is going to camp you (you came prepared with a perk for it after all), and you see a survivor is heading your way in futility, because they won't get the safe with the killer here.
So you take your 4%, you relocate to a hook 40m+ away, which is likely much closer to the survivor who is coming for the rescue. You get rescued. Nothing was lost. The only reason why this comes with an additional cost to your life bar, is so it's not used willy-nilly when the killer may not even be camping, and waste time for other survivors.
Yes Kinship exists, but Kinship doesn't come with faster repair speeds and a BP bonus.
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(Keep in mind I'm not pro-hook movement, I just wanted to look into the idea). If it's not communicated to your teammates that you have a perk that would do that, it'd probably back-fire more often than benefiting the player. (Which currently happens with Kinship in solo queue).
Kinship working in both phases would give more time to complete gens, and it could easily gain a BP bonus. (Although BHVR seems anti-BP bonus perks lately.)
It'd be an interesting meta if Kinship gave 500 BP for each 10 seconds stuck on a hook and within 32 meters of the killer. While pausing the timer on both phases. (Adding a yellow bar to the HUD to show the whole team there is extra time.)
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Camping isn't possible to remove as a strategy. Unless you want the game to die.
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The game is dying, almost everyone I know played it has already given it up
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Everyone says that, yet the game is still being played, and this anniversary update had a significant player count.
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So the game wouldn't die if they removed camping
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The game wouldn't die if they keep camping in either, clearly.
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No, but it would be more fun, so what exactly is the excuse against that?
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Then wats the point of killers? Are we just supposed to stand there and look pretty?
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Not necessarily. For killer players, chasing survivors through loop after loop, pallet after pallet isn't fun. It's tedious and annoying. Don't get me wrong, I don't really see any appeal in camping myself, even being a killer main, but chases that last too long are boring, and hurt killers more than anything. If one chase lasts too long, say goodbye to 3 generators. Looping is obnoxious, just like camping is, and both hurt the killer's chances of winning.
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Heck, you could make end-game camping a non-issue by making exits regress over time and shut after being open for a duration so that survivors cannot 99 doors for free. They'd still have some risk, and that risk would be enough for a killer to potentially secure kills without camping.
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I kinda have to agree. I rarely see anything genuinely camping and tunneling, maybe 1 in 10 survivors matches if that. It's definitely not happening as often as people say. It's kinda like how so many people think they're playing in high MMR matches, when only like 4% of the playerbase actually is lol
While I personally don't like camping or tunneling, there's certain instances where it's necessary. And because most maps have so many safe tiles that can be strung together easily, chases are longer than they used to be. There's not really mind game potential at most loops either because survivors can either see over the loop, or see your red stain through holes and cracks within the loops.
Right now trying to mind game at loops typically hurts you more than it helps, so the killer's left with only a few options. Commit to the chase and just break all pallets immediately until you get to an open area with no safe tiles, or leave the chase and hope the next person you find isn't at a safe tile. But as stated above, with more maps have more and more safe tiles this is less likely to happen.
So you end up having to commit to the chase and by the time you get through the many resources this survivor has to keep from going down, you've lost 2-3 gens.
What do you do at this point? You've got 1 hook and only 2 gens left. Do you leave that person to go start a chase with a perfectly healthy survivor that still has all of their resources? You could, but you'd probably end up with 4 escapes and 3-4 hooks. Happens all the time.
But in reality, the smarter play is to proxy camp the hooked survivor and the closest gen. That way you can intercept the survivor going for the save and apply pressure for them, and then tunnel the person off hook. Does it suck having to do that? Absolutely. But the alternative is the possibility listed above. Having 3 survivors left to work 1-2 gens is a lot easier to manage than 4 survivors.
It's just how it is right now. Right now survivors set the pace of the match and killers have to adapt to that pace and bank on survivors making a mistake. Sucks but that's how the game is designed
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I don't really understand your question? Why are killers getting buffed despite being stronger? Because they base wins off 2 kill baseline? Which proves nothing as most matches tend to favour one side or another? I mean you could ask why did they try to further prevent tunnelling, despite tunnelling being weaker now then it was 4 years ago? Its the same reason, because of 6 year old game design that people have become more efficient in.
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I see, its weird when you say Killers are stronger than ever, when they are not strong enough. But we are on the same page.
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Honestly I sometimes wish u could play against bots in the game instead of actually people for the fact that I have had experiences both with the killer camping and with me going to save people from the hook only for them to later on in the match not do the same for me or idiot survivors who run towards the hook to save u only to end up crouching down behind an object near the hook and hesitating to save u even when the killer is nowhere near u.
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Not necessarily. What I mean is that, when you start killing survivors, the others follow shortly after. So the match ended around the same time for everybody. However, the game should also end with everybody having earned at least 20k BP in that match, so killers don't just 4k at 5 gens and have all 4 survivors die with under 10k BP. That should not be a thing. A match should end around the same time for everybody, with everyone having earned 20k BP or more.
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"You're not entitled to three hook states, you're not entitled to second chances, and you're not entitled to repair every gen and escape. You get to do that by winning, and getting caught by the killer is not winning."
"This is not a "weak excuse", it's literally the root of the problem. They need to nerf survivor sided maps, strong loops, chase perks and second chance perks, in order to make 'not camping' the more effective strategy."
As long as gens are eliminated faster than survivors the only answer will be camping/tunneling/slugging. Killers must camp/tunne;/slug because it is the only viable catch up mechanic.
If DBD made all the maps fair (aka less than 9000m²), made most pallets "unsafe" and generally buffed all the weak killers then you might have a way to win without camping.
If killers could turn completed gens back off they also would have another objective.
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So you wanna play a pvp game but have a 100% win rate is what I'm getting from "I just want a bot mode to play the game" cause its nearly impossible to lose against bots unless you're just that bad. My brother in christ it's a pvp game, you're meant to have unenjoyable experiences and those who say "I don't let it get to me" break themselves down eventually.
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And after the mass of main killers complain SWF is too hard. The devs should fix it ...
But if there were more and more and more SWF it's because in solo-Q, camping and tunneling is a endgame :/
It's a vicious circle.
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My brother in christ, it's a video game and video games should be fun, PvP or not. And if I get guaranteed 100% wins against bots what is it to you? No really, what is it to you at that point? Are you gonna miss me? Are you gonna go like "onyx no, please come back, please play against me :<"?
Like, really, what exactly is the problem, unless you think that you play in an unfun way and think that it will cause a lot of survivors to stop playing against real players, thus increasing your own queue times as killer. Excluding the fact that it will never happen since there will always be people who wanna play against real players, if you really fear that, wouldn't the solution be that you just need to play nicer at that point? I never really had a problem with dying, but I had a problem with it if it felt rushed or unfair. If my death felt cheap or if because I got killed in the first 2 mins of the match, that is when I have an issue.
Like really, the only other solution would be a blacklist, let us block players in the end screen so we can never play against them. The only people who would have an objection to this would clearly be people who know they play scummy, which at that point it isn't my problem :/
Honestly, I really do not get this hate for a mode versus bots where you can still earn BP and stuff, a mode which you could totally just ignore and wouldn't affect you if you like versing only players. The option should be there for those who want it and it's your choice to simply not interact with it.
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You miss my point. You want to go from PVP to PVE for what seems like no good reason. Everybody hates certain strategies and playstyles in certain games so why should this game get special treatment? Also if a death felt rushed then dbd survivor isn't a game for you, or any single life arena type game for that matter. Also blacklists to prevent playing against others doesn't work cause its going to be exploited by players to eventually just go against babies or the boot licking killers.
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Don't tell me what is and isn't for me. I literally have over 2k hours in this game, pretty much every achievement except from the last 2 chapters, I know what I can do and I think I can discern what is good for the game and what isn't after all this time.
I am not turning DbD from PvP to PvE, I am adding a PvE option, whilst PvP is still there. Hey, you know what that is equivalent of? Campaign mode in multiplayer games, heck, in MMOs there are PvP and PvE servers, it's the same idea here! Give people the option to choose if they wanna play against players or not.
As for your concern that people will just block until they get only babies, guess what, those low tier killers can also just go and block them at that point. It's not like only killers or only survivors could do it.
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I can tell you whatever I want whether you take it is up to you but either way I made the example of survivors cause they have proven themselves to abuse things more than killers at least from my experience. Every time the DC penalty got turned off I had at least 1 survivor dc every 2 games with killers really only dc'ing when they already lost like having 4 people alive at 1 gen with only 1 person dead hook.
I still don't get this whole "make a bot mode because of a strategy I don't like playing against" motive. Me personally (so this doesn't apply to everyone) just go next and usually I'm a very vocal person about stuff like balance and straight up nerfing it won't work here. You basically have to re-write the dbd formula to solve stuff like camping.
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I think @Seraphor has the right of it and I've seen them comment in multiple spaces pointing to the issue as being the game being a player elimination model. I think they're also right that there are contexts where camping should be treated as viable (more towards the endgame) and also that an over-prevalence of camping generally belies a lack of killer confidence / motivation to engage in chases.
I'm hoping that the upcoming patch really changes this - killers do not want to engage in chases when a single one can plausibly take up an entire match. Dead Hard, in my opinion, is the linchpin that enabled these 2-3 (sometimes 5!) gen chases in more cases than the game should see. Most killers don't find camping fun. Focusing on those 'most' who would rather leave and do something else, but feel like they will get even less out of the match if they do, is the key.
For a while, BBQ and Pop both did a great job at encouraging killers to leave hook, but Pop became overshadowed by other forms of gen control while itself still needing to be taken out of limelight to let other perks shine. Incentives do work, but there's also a need to introduce variety to those incentives.
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Again, if you think that camping requires rewritting DbD, then implement a vs bots mod. Why have one just because I hate a playstyle? .... Because I hate the playstyle, obviously. I play for my own fun, not yours, so if I'm not having fun because of the way you play, I want the option to not play against you. It really is that simple. It's not rocket science, like, really, what is there more to get?
It's a system that you don't even have to interact with if you don't want to, like, literally. You okay with camping and tunneling and prefer going against players? Good for you, go play against players and literally forever ignore the vs bots mode. Easy as 1, 2, 3. See no evil and stuff.
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Maybe some killers would not camp if there are more incentives, but many don't do it because of that, they just know it works or they know it screws survivors or they just wanna be asshats. Most camp because they know it is scummy. I mean, look at the two games I posted. We were literally at 4 gens. Did you read the part where I said that in the Freddy game that was my first hook, btw? I literally died 1st hook, you know how many gens got done by the time I died? One. Killer literally lost just 1 gen. Also the BP I got from all of that? Less than 10k BP, which is NOT worth the time I invested queue-ing up.
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Don't worry, I did observe that. I experienced it over the weekend. It happens. It's not fun, but I also had at least 3 or 4 matches where I irritated the daylight out of the killer using Head On + Flashbang + Blast Mine + Decisive Strike. It takes a lot more effort than standing in front of a hook, but the mission to play the game for little reason but to annoy your opponent cuts both ways - so I recognize that sometimes I'm going to be the one laughing and other times I'll be the butt of the joke. It's just the nature of the game.
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How about a small gen speed increase when the killer is spending too much time by the hooked person while not in chase?
They still have the option to camp if they want to, but they give up something else in return.
Or the other way around, let's say a base gen speed would let you finish it in 60 seconds, but for each safe unhook there would be a gen speed penalty, of maybe about 5%, so killers wouldn't want to scare away people from saving by camping as well as tunnelling straight away would not be rewarding.
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