solution to camping that keeps both sides happy (hopefully)

KingB

No, I'm not complaining about killers camping. It's a legit strategy and I'm not saying it should be removed or anything. But it is unfun as a survivor. What I suggest is a perk/base game mechanic/kindred buff that does this:

"When killer is within 16m, the auras of 1/2/3 random gems are revealed. All survivors complete gens 15%/15%/20% faster until unhooked or dead."

Edit 1: "if a survivor is within 16m the perk is disabled."

This way survivors can punish camping effectively while killers can secure the kill. The numbers can be tweaked I just thought this was a good premise. And the survivor can suicide on the hook quicker without screwing the other 3 so bad. 

Edit 2: with this introduction the chaser penalty should be removed.

GodDamn_Angela

Camping is already heavily discouraged by in-game mechanics and losing Chaser score. The only time Camping is a "legit strategy" is when the Killer KNOWS a survivor, or three, are nearby waiting to unhook. Otherwise they are just wasting time and giving the Survivors free rein to do Gens without any worries.

Also who are the Gens revealed to, the hooked player? Your perk idea is a little confusing and I feel it would be too annoying and unfair to implement something this extreme as a base mechanic.

Dreamnomad

A.) Killers wouldn't be happy at all about this.
B.) Should be in balance feedback.

PhantomMask20763

I feel like the killer should be rewarded for leaving though, something to entice the players to leave like extra bps

Rebel_Raven

Heyall no.

First off, answer this. What the hell is in this for the killer again to make them happy?

Survivors don't need a perk to do what they can already do better like this.

Gen rush, which this promotes, CAUSES CAMPING. You think this is going to make a killer leave the hook knowing the gens are going to be done by the time they step away?
If a killer knows the unhooked is going to have a clear shot to the gates, there's little incentive to leave the hook.

NMCKE

PhantomMask20763 said:

I feel like the killer should be rewarded for leaving though, something to entice the players to leave like extra bps

I was thinking more on the lines of the survivor getting bonus Lightbringer points when other survivors complete generators while you are on the hook. That way, you'll still have a great chance to pip (If your teammates do generators) while the killer gets his sacrifice.

PhantomMask20763

@Nickenzie said:
PhantomMask20763 said:

I feel like the killer should be rewarded for leaving though, something to entice the players to leave like extra bps

I was thinking more on the lines of the survivor getting bonus Lightbringer points when other survivors complete generators while you are on the hook. That way, you'll still have a great chance to pip (If your teammates do generators) while the killer gets his sacrifice.

That could work, it rewards the survivors for countering camping

KingB

@Rebel_Raven Making it a perk shakes up meta for starters. Most forums on here I see killers (I play both btw, but I'm a lot better at killer) say that camping can be punished by Gen rushing. With this perk, camping can be punished effectively while still retaining it's usefulness in securing a kill. This only promotes Gen rush IF the killer camps. Did you read it all the way? Only when the killer is within 16m. Even now looking back on it I wanna add the change "if another survivor is within 16m the perk does not activate" so swf can't abuse it. Also this doesn't impact end game in the slightest.

KingB

@GodDamn_Angela I edited it to reflect the chaser penalty. I completely forgot that existed lol. How can I word that more clearly? 

KingB

@Dreamnomad
A.) Why not.
B.) It's not a fully fledged out idea yet. Just trying to see how everyone else would feel about this.

KingB

@PhantomMask20763 survivors would rather complain until that perk is nerfed into the ground. Oh wait...

Rebel_Raven

KingB said:

@Rebel_Raven Making it a perk shakes up meta for starters. Most forums on here I see killers (I play both btw, but I'm a lot better at killer) say that camping can be punished by Gen rushing. With this perk, camping can be punished effectively while still retaining it's usefulness in securing a kill. This only promotes Gen rush IF the killer camps. Did you read it all the way? Only when the killer is within 16m. Even now looking back on it I wanna add the change "if another survivor is within 16m the perk does not activate" also this doesn't impact end game in the slightest.

I think we have a misunderstanding about camping to secure a kill. 
Camping someone to death while the gens are nearly done or done is really sub optimal play in my book. I don't think anyone wants to do it.
This forces the killer into a desperate situation, not a good one.
There is nothing in it but maybe a 1k for the killer unless people go crazy altruistic. I don't feel like anyone running that perk is looking out for their fellow survivors.

Frankly I hate the whole gens are done and someone is hooked fight, but if I got gen rushed to the point they were my only hook, I don't have much choice if I want to get anything out of the trial.

And survivors can already gen rush to the point that they've almost won by the time the first hook is done. 

I still see no reason to enjoy this perk as a killer.
Maybe speed the game up immensely while someone gets killed as a survivor, but that still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

KingB

@Rebel_Raven I'm not saying it's on the killer or it makes them bad for doing so. I'm just saying it's not fun to be camped. If someone is toxic they deserve to be camped. I agree, sometimes camping is the only way to get a kill (I've even made threads complaining about the BBQ nerf and BT buff). Gen rush is bad but it's going to happen regardless if you camp unless the survivors are bad or there is a DC. As a killer I would be fine with this because they die and I don't have to play "watch the bar simulator" as long. 

Terratoast

The issue is, how do you punish camping with the intent of spiting someone and not punish camping with the intent of capitalizing on survivors who are being extremely altruistic?

I don't think that you can. So yeah, it sucks when you're the survivor that gets camped. But the counter remains the same and is already extremely effective for the team. Do the gens. Your task as a survivor to make sure you're not camped is to make sure you're as un-tasty a target as possible. Force the killer to chase someone else or lose tons of time chasing you through the various obstacles.

With that line of reasoning I think survivors should be getting more blood points from getting chased (maybe a boost to survival while being chased?), since they have very little choice to do anything else other than flee. Or dead survivors retroactively get a blood point reward if their team ends up escaping to acknowledge their contribution to the team for keeping the killer so busy, be it getting camped or keeping the killer chasing them.

Rebel_Raven

KingB said:

@Rebel_Raven I'm not saying it's on the killer or it makes them bad for doing so. I'm just saying it's not fun to be camped. If someone is toxic they deserve to be camped. I agree, sometimes camping is the only way to get a kill (I've even made threads complaining about the BBQ nerf and BT buff). Gen rush is bad but it's going to happen regardless if you camp unless the survivors are bad or there is a DC. As a killer I would be fine with this because they die and I don't have to play "watch the bar simulator" as long. 

Not saying you're saying anything, I'm just calling it as I see it. 

If the gens are done, or so close to it that intercepting doesn't seem possible, they're going to camp. 

I didn't even get into camping a toxic player who would probably love having this perk to screw the killer harder knowing the killer is getting horrible blood points.

Again, there's not really anything in it for the killer.
Infact it just leads to hook swarming faster.
The survivors only have 2 objectives at that point.
 Escape or rescue.
Well, the side quest of trolling is there.
Fighting survivors over that hook, especially an swf is ######### miserable. 
I don't want to get there sooner. 

Maybe if the killer wants to do end game stuff, but that is a heck of a guess if the survivors have this perk.

Dreamnomad

@KingB said:
@Dreamnomad
A.) Why not.
B.) It's not a fully fledged out idea yet. Just trying to see how everyone else would feel about this.

Your suggestion is a direct punishment for camping. The killer gets nothing in return for this trade. If you were to suggest that the longer the killer stays near a hooked survivor the faster that the survivor is sacrificed, but in return survivors had a scaling bonus towards working on generators then there might be an argument made that the game would be better off. If that was the case then the killer is making a trade for generators for a kill, but at least it wouldn't waste as much time for all the players involved.

Visionmaker

Adding it to Kindred would be a great idea.

Not only would it actually allow solo players to more easily coordinate to counter camping, but also boost Kindred to viability. Survivors can mind-game killers into thinking they have Kindred, thus further discourage camping, or even let themselves get caught.

20% is heavy handed, but that can obviously be adjusted.

DocOctober

Let's make a suggestion that only favours Survivors and doesn't give a damn about the Killers, I'm sure that will make both sides happy.

What did you smoke?

Wolf74

@DocOctober said:
Let's make a suggestion that only favours Survivors and doesn't give a damn about the Killers, I'm sure that will make both sides happy.

What did you smoke?

I was really interested in the suggestion after I read the title, but than I failed to see anything that would make "the other side" happy.
Just the regular nerf/punish killer suggestion.

Attackfrog

Campers gon' camp.

Punish/reward us all you want but sometimes...It's just fun.

Stop trying to "fix" it and just play the game.

Might as well try to punish clouds from raining or dogs from barking or my wife from watching terrible Netflix shows....nothing gonna change it.

Evil_one

Survivors should be able to see the account name of the killer.  So they can avoid facecamper they played against already!

The_Crusader

Evil_one said:

Survivors should be able to see the account name of the killer.  So they can avoid facecamper they played against already!

Yeah I made a post about this in the wishlist section.

You get camped, check the killers steam profile at the end and its often just a wall of comments left by salty survivors calling the guy a camper.

If I knew this info before hand I could have dodged the lobby.

Wolf74

@Evil_one said:
Survivors should be able to see the account name of the killer.  So they can avoid facecamper they played against already!

We already had that and it got removed because it got abused like crazy.

George_Soros

Nickenzie said:

PhantomMask20763 said:

I feel like the killer should be rewarded for leaving though, something to entice the players to leave like extra bps

I was thinking more on the lines of the survivor getting bonus Lightbringer points when other survivors complete generators while you are on the hook. That way, you'll still have a great chance to pip (If your teammates do generators) while the killer gets his sacrifice.

They do though. Not exactly while on hook, but as survivor you get 5% to your Lightbringer emblem every time a gen is done, regardless whether you worked on it or not.

As for the original suggestion, some people will facecamp, no matter what. We can live with that. Also, don't forget that being hooked is not supposed to be a jolly experience. It sucks. Which is an important incentive to not getting caught.

Boss

Doesn't sound like a happy solution.

DocOctober

Evil_one said:

Survivors should be able to see the account name of the killer.  So they can avoid facecamper they played against already!

That was possible in 2016. Survivors abused it so thoroughly (as they abuse everything really) that the devs removed that possibility.

alivebydeadight

@GodDamn_Angela said:
Camping is already heavily discouraged by in-game mechanics and losing Chaser score. The only time Camping is a "legit strategy" is when the Killer KNOWS a survivor, or three, are nearby waiting to unhook. Otherwise they are just wasting time and giving the Survivors free rein to do Gens without any worries.

Also who are the Gens revealed to, the hooked player? Your perk idea is a little confusing and I feel it would be too annoying and unfair to implement something this extreme as a base mechanic.

I still get camped even with the change

TreblucFayle

"Killer near the hook" mechanics don't work. They tried an effect where the hooked person didn't die (or died slower) as long as the killer was close.

They had to scrap the idea because survivors were abusing the mechanic.

How?

One or two survivors would go near the hook (but not close enough to get caught) and "keep the killer busy" by pretending to go for a save. Killer would be foolish to leave the area when they KNOW a survivor is close, right? So the other survivor(s) could freely do gens while the killer was occupied.

While you idea is not as easily abused, it still would lead to people pretending to go for the save while the other survivors get a bonus to Gen speed.

MisterCremaster

I still maintain camping would be less of an issue if it just didn't feel like a fully wasted game for the survivor. I think at a minimum the idea that YOU the camped on the hook, get blood points for every generator done while on the hook is great.

It would encourage other survivors to leave them and do generators since its not a fully wasted game for the one being camped, and it has the added bonus of encouraging that survivor to wait it out and struggle, since it would mean more generator points for them. This would in turn, discourage camping, since camping killers would likely see more generators done and would need to stop this behavior.

Attackfrog

It's not an entire wasted game for the person hooked.

It's two minutes.

Then they jump into the next game.

MisterCremaster

To be clear, the> @Attackfrog said:

It's not an entire wasted game for the person hooked.

It's two minutes.

Then they jump into the next game.

Except if you are in a SWF group and need to wait for them to finish, and queue times can be stupid long. Hopefully that changes. Its also a waste of any offerings or items you brought.

Orion

There will never be such a solution, because while Killers want incentives to leave the hook, Survivors just want to punish Killers for not giving them free unhooks.

Well_Placed_HexTotem

I’m waiting for them to add a perk that makes the entity progress bar move significantly slower while the killer is within a certain range. Seems like an easy fix for camping that would require a perk slot from survivors, which means one less clutch meta perk to annoy killers. Win/win.

Master

@KingB said:
No, I'm not complaining about killers camping. It's a legit strategy and I'm not saying it should be removed or anything. But it is unfun as a survivor. What I suggest is a perk/base game mechanic/kindred buff that does this:

"When killer is within 16m, the auras of 1/2/3 random gems are revealed. All survivors complete gens 15%/15%/20% faster until unhooked or dead."

Edit 1: "if a survivor is within 16m the perk is disabled."

This way survivors can punish camping effectively while killers can secure the kill. The numbers can be tweaked I just thought this was a good premise. And the survivor can suicide on the hook quicker without screwing the other 3 so bad. 

Edit 2: with this introduction the chaser penalty should be removed.

Camping already is punished heavily by the existing game mechanics

Master

@MisterCremaster said:
To be clear, the> @Attackfrog said:

It's not an entire wasted game for the person hooked.

It's two minutes.

Then they jump into the next game.

Except if you are in a SWF group and need to wait for them to finish, and queue times can be stupid long. Hopefully that changes. Its also a waste of any offerings or items you brought.

If you are in a SWF, your mates can pop all gens while you are on hook and easily finish the game. Whats the deal?

Just to put some numbers.
A gen takes 80 seconds to complete, which means that during your 120 sec hook duration your mates can easily knock out 3 gens. Together with the 40 remaining seconds and the work done before you have hooked, this should be a free escape already.

You probably dont even have the time for a quick WC break till your mates are done

douggie123

I camp but only if a survivor forces me to if I hook someone and see one or two survivors hanging round the hook like flies to God knows what I will camp hard. Also if I have  BBQ and chili tier 3 and auras don't show up then that automatically suggests to me that survivors are possibly near me so I will have a look around and if I see a survivor nearby then I ain't leaving the hook 

Wolf74

@douggie123 said:
I camp but only if a survivor forces me to if I hook someone and see one or two survivors hanging round the hook like flies to God knows what I will camp hard. Also if I have  BBQ and chili tier 3 and auras don't show up then that automatically suggests to me that survivors are possibly near me so I will have a look around and if I see a survivor nearby then I ain't leaving the hook 

Oldie but goldie…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arEkqdiMKNI

douggie123

Wolf74 said: 

@douggie123 said:
I camp but only if a survivor forces me to if I hook someone and see one or two survivors hanging round the hook like flies to God knows what I will camp hard. Also if I have  BBQ and chili tier 3 and auras don't show up then that automatically suggests to me that survivors are possibly near me so I will have a look around and if I see a survivor nearby then I ain't leaving the hook 

Oldie but goldie…

Love it lol

PigNRun

Why dont we see this the other way round? Make it as a base mechanic, and make it work so that if the killer is x metres away from the hook, Survivors receive a generator penalty (slower repairs or lower bonuses from skillchecks/multiple people on same generator).

malloymk

Honestly I think if you're the killer and you're 16 meters away, the hook timer should temporarily stop. Unless survivors are within 32 meters. We can nit pick a bit on measurements. 

This would penalize campers except in cases where survivors are nearby waiting for the quick unhook.

It would also help hooked survivors who face hag or trapper. Often times by the time the hag or trapper is done setting traps in the area, so much hook progress has taken effect that you're almost certainly hitting phase 2 or death. Killers should absolutely be able to set traps near the hooked survivor. It just feels cheap when it's basically an indirect camp.

For killers with this scenario, you do get a buff in terms of if you're 16 meters or closer and you see the survivors hook progress dropping, well you would know that a survivor is near by. This could be particularly helpful with the BBQ nerf. 

I'll come out and admit it. I'm a survivor main and this would more than likely benefit the survivors more than a killer so it's not a complete idea. But I think it would be a good start as opposed to automatic aura reading or gen penalties. That said, the number 1 complain survivors have is camping and anything the developers or entity can do to force the hand of the killer to at least give a possibility of an unhook would be nice.

Also, FYI this idea would only count for play before generators are complete. Once generators are complete the killer has every reason to not venture away from the hooked survivor. Maybe you could speed up the hook timer in that case. Or maybe the hook timer speeds up a bit based on killer distance away from the hook in general. Just tossing some ideas out there.

GodDamn_Angela

@alivebydeadight said:

@GodDamn_Angela said:
Camping is already heavily discouraged by in-game mechanics and losing Chaser score. The only time Camping is a "legit strategy" is when the Killer KNOWS a survivor, or three, are nearby waiting to unhook. Otherwise they are just wasting time and giving the Survivors free rein to do Gens without any worries.

Also who are the Gens revealed to, the hooked player? Your perk idea is a little confusing and I feel it would be too annoying and unfair to implement something this extreme as a base mechanic.

I still get camped even with the change

I wasn't saying there are no campers. There will always be Campers.

I was only stating it is already discouraged and, in my opinion, we don't really need anything to discourage it further. Or, at least, not something this potent and unfair toward Killers trying to keep Hook Vultures at bay.

Avariku

I would actually like to see some way to gain bloodpoints while being camped. contrary to what one person thinks it is a wasted round. thats lobby wait time, plus load screens, plus 2 minutes of dangling there all just so some troll can get his kicks.

TreblucFayle

@Avariku I disagree with giving points to the hooked survivor who is not doing anything. It sucks to get caught quickly, especially if the killer camps and you die. But that's not a reason to reward the hooked survivor.

Avariku

TreblucFayle said:

@Avariku I disagree with giving points to the hooked survivor who is not doing anything. It sucks to get caught quickly, especially if the killer camps and you die. But that's not a reason to reward the hooked survivor.

if they aren't DC'ing or suiciding on hook then they are keeping the killer busy so their team doesn't get massacred by a camper.

they're taking one for the team... seems like it's doing something to me. 

alivebydeadight

@GodDamn_Angela said:

@alivebydeadight said:

@GodDamn_Angela said:
Camping is already heavily discouraged by in-game mechanics and losing Chaser score. The only time Camping is a "legit strategy" is when the Killer KNOWS a survivor, or three, are nearby waiting to unhook. Otherwise they are just wasting time and giving the Survivors free rein to do Gens without any worries.

Also who are the Gens revealed to, the hooked player? Your perk idea is a little confusing and I feel it would be too annoying and unfair to implement something this extreme as a base mechanic.

I still get camped even with the change

I wasn't saying there are no campers. There will always be Campers.

I was only stating it is already discouraged and, in my opinion, we don't really need anything to discourage it further. Or, at least, not something this potent and unfair toward Killers trying to keep Hook Vultures at bay.

this would be a nice perk tho, it effects hook rushing camped survivors and punishes killers for camping

KingB

@DocOctober I think not having to camp the whole progress bar would be nice. The camped survivor can suicide without screwing over the team as bad. Is there any changes I can make to please killers/you? Camping isn't fun (unless the survivor was toxic), I'm trying to make a solution that keeps camping an option but not so boring.

KingB

@Wolf74 my aim wasn't to nerf/punish killers. It was to speed up the (boring) process of camping while still leaving it an option to secure a kill. I think the emblem penalty is stupid and should be removed (my mistake for not mentioning this). What can be changed, if anything, to make this appeal to you?

DocOctober

KingB said:

@DocOctober I think not having to camp the whole progress bar would be nice. The camped survivor can suicide without screwing over the team as bad. Is there any changes I can make to please killers/you? Camping isn't fun (unless the survivor was toxic), I'm trying to make a solution that keeps camping an option but not so boring.

I'd prefer it if you were honest. Your idea only regards the Survivor's fun

ReneAensland

I brought this up idea last month.
It's a GENIUS idea, in my honest opinion.

"The unfortunate circumstance enrages you, while the killer remains nearby the hooked survivor you gain 10/15/20% speed increase to generators and the revealed doors. The effect is cancelled if an unhooked or undying survivor is within the radius of the hooked survivor."

THIS IS IT!

Wolf74

@KingB said:
@Wolf74 my aim wasn't to nerf/punish killers. It was to speed up the (boring) process of camping while still leaving it an option to secure a kill. I think the emblem penalty is stupid and should be removed (my mistake for not mentioning this). What can be changed, if anything, to make this appeal to you?

About "camping"?
First off, I really dislike using this social combat term, but anyway…
Give killer a reason to leave the hook. Not punish them for staying.
A good way would be a permanent action speed penalty for them when they got hooked.
A higher debuff for the first hook and an additional lesser debuff for the second hook, because right now, getting hooked once or even twice means nothing to survivor.
It is rather beneficial to them to offer themself as a trade on the hook, to spread out the damage across the team.
Each survivor hooked twice is not a big deal , once person hooked for the3rd time on the other hand is a 25% debuff for the team and can start a snowball effect.
So 8 hooks spread across the team is meaningless, but 3 hooks on the same survivor means a lot.
That's a flawed gamedesign that leads to "camping".
The killer that seemed to perform better by hooking survivor 8 times, did not achieve anything compared to the "bad killer", that just hooked one 3 times or just camped that guy on the first hook and just removed him from the match.

KingB

@DocOctober are you saying camping is fun?