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Does current DH need a visual tell? (Maybe a bit more subtle than Dabs4Dads)
Current DH is pretty... bemoaned. I personally can't complain, the current version is nearly a precise version of a suggestion I made. However, there IS a difference:
The, uh, dab animation.
DH is now a reaction/read to what the Killer is setting up to do. I don't see a reason to telegraph the dodge/parry that the Survivor is going to counter with on account of it being a much more skilled use of the Perks function. With how DH now requires a hard read, understanding of their situation, and good timing, there doesn't REALLY seem to be a point in making it play an animation when the dodge/parry function is active. If the developers REALLY want to use the animation for the sake of it, make it activate in the first split second AFTER getting hit, not before. The tell gives the Killer the ability to see last second that yes, that Survivor was expecting what they had coming. In most games, this would be met with the player making the read getting something out of it. With the Dab, however, this gives the Killer an unnecessary chance to hold back their attack last second in order to deny the Survivor the positive results of their accurate prediction.
So, just move the Dab to AFTER the hit has landed so it looks like they dashed through the hit instead of like they want some big angry person to check out their new demo before getting smacked for wasting their time. This would make DH more viable in general scenarios, NOT have any of the issues with previous DH, and allow DH to better reward the predictive capabilities of the Survivor using it.
Also, add Witch Time graphics when it lands. Yes.
I posted the gif as a joke, but looking at it, it LITERALLY does what I suggested. It plays the dodge animation AFTER the hit lands. This is on account of it requiring accurate, last second input, along with the time of the animation, but it basically shows precisely what I'm referring to. Go figure.
Comments
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I’d love for the animation to actually match the effect length. It just looks awkward now
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Well, the old anim is getting updated, but it would be kinda silly for them to update it for a specific scenario that shouldn't honestly exist (telegraphing the active parry frames). It would be better if they moved the anim after the hit and made it look like the Survivor ducked and dashed out. From there, they could use a 0.3(ish) second fade out into the normal run anim.
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The new Dead Hard has literally the exact same animation timing to dodge an attack as the old one (they both last 0.5 seconds). If you could dodge an attack with the old one you can do it with the new one, there is zero difference in that aspect, including that they even have the exact same animation.
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Same timing, but the original gave distance and played the animation on button press, ensuring it did something regardless of the situation. The new version only reacts to Killer input when activated. Therefor, moving the animation would not only be fine, but make the perk work better as it wouldn't broadcast its use before providing a benefit.
The original was more of a pure dodge. The new one is a parry. Dodges and parries are treated differently mechanically, and get separate telegraphs as a result.
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And giving distance was the issue and why it was overpowered. Now you actually need to time your Dead Hard correctly to get the value of blocking the attack versus always getting value regardless.
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Ya, I'm not arguing that. I just want the dab animation moved to "on hit" instead of "on perk activation" so it behaves more like a parry.
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I’m not sure why you think parry animations in other games aren’t shown when you press the button. Dark Souls, for instance, does their parry animation the instant you press the button, not “on hit”. Same with fighting games like Tekken.
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It is a cute animation that makes me feel pity for them.
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If we really wanted to use the analogy of dodges and parries, then dead hard should keep its current animation, so it has miss animation frames. Dodges and parries tend to have inactive frames at the end, to make them easier to punish if nothing got dodged or parried.
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It does a start up, then plays a different animation on success. In those games, the parries animations are often as fast or faster than the attack animations, allowing someone to pull them off at the beginning of an attack. Those attacks are also slower in Souls, and in Tekken, you can clearly see what the other person is doing on account of the camera. All of this is to say that parries still mostly work by not broadcasting they are going out before the attack is in motion.
The speed at which DbD works makes that harder to do, since fast attacks happen, well, fast. In any case, I don't think it would make DH broken to have it move the dab animation. It would just make it better for Survivors to use while still requiring skill and a good read.
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Could make a different animation to play at the end of the "missed" use of it. Would tell the Killer that it was used, and tell the Survivor they messed up the timing window.
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I’m not against changing the animation for Dead Hard to be something other than that dab, it definitely looks silly. It should still show an animation when its used though.
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The issue I have with the placement of the animation timing is that in DbD, quick attacks have very little commitment. They come out fast and can be stalled. It makes parrying without being almost frame perfect difficult. With lunges or projectiles, as well as special attacks that telegraph, current DH works fine because it gives the Survivor time to react. However, in the scenario where you'd want to READ the incoming attack, said attack comes out almost too fast to react to and, in the event of an animation that telegraphs the parry, is easy to hold. If quick attacks had a bit more time before hitting, then the current DH would be fine, as the Killer would be committed to the quick attack and couldn't prevent it from activating the DH. As it stands now, however, the attack has very few start-up frames and a long cooldown. Essentially, DH is now a parry in a game with a lack of attack commitment. The other games you listed, Souls and Tekken, either have longer start up frames to make attacks a commitment (Souls), or other defensive measures where parries can be used after the opponent has committed to a combo or block chain. DbD has none of this.
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TBH, I think you are right, and this is coming from a killer main. DH in the past had a real strangle hold on the game, and the way survivors everywhere crumbled in the first two days showed this, but in the time since most survivors have adapted and now loop again and everything seems to be proceeding fine, I think. Sure, a lot of people are salty, and the camping/tunneling situation needs to be adressed somehow, but everyone (most) is (are) experimenting with new builds and I think thats awesome.
So, when playing killer I have met exactly one survivor who was good at using the new DH and used it very well, and two others were I hit them once and wisend up afterwards. The new DH, if used right, is pretty powerful, but it takes a lot of skill and luck and isn't anything like the "get out of jail for free" card of the past. I also think that you are right and the dab-animation is a relic of the past that could pretty much go away without affecting the current state of the game. I think BHVR were a bit scared to take the animation away, just to avoid a situation where everyone said "again, they nefed something only to make it stronger!". But this is obviously not the case, so maybe just take the animation away and see how things work out?
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DH should either have inactive starting frames or inactive ending frames. Having a parry that has neither is ridiculous. People want the animation shortened to make it easier to DH to a pallet or window. This is specifically what BHVR said they wanted to nerf.
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Honestly, even that is fair, but the current animation just makes it incredibly easy for Killers to react by holding off on their quick attack.
I'm not saying the amount of time DH is active should be increased, far from it. Just that the speed of quick attacks makes the lack of commitment to the attack extremely difficult to do anything with if the Survivor does a big fat broadcast of their DH. DH only lasts half a second, but when you're rubbing them from behind and not in the middle of a lunge, you can see that and react to wait it out easily. Quick attacks simply don't come with the commitment of longer attacks. I just think DHs animation or the placement/timing of the animation should be adjusted accordingly, to make it so it rewards hard reads without changing the current timing or functionality otherwise.
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If a survivor whiffs a dead hard, the killer should be able to punish it if in range. Killers shouldn't have to wait out dead hard, then have to immediately deal with a potential 360 attempt, or pallet slam, or vault.
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Yes, and they still would. The timing would simply be slightly different to give the DH a better chance of working. A whiffed DH would still be a whiffed DH, it just wouldn't be as reactable on DH start-up. DH would still require a hard read, great timing, and last half a second as it does now. DH wouldn't suddenly become easy to use, it'd be the same as it is now it with a little bit more use against quick attacks.
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Quick attacks are supposed to come out fast enough to prevent people from using dead hard on reaction. It's literally the counterplay for dead hard on reaction.
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The answer is yes, if killers can wait it out, they deserves to swing weapon without fear of dead hard.
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It should still have an animaiton for beforehand. An animaiton for after it would be nice too tohugh.
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At this point, I'd go for that too as long as the activation animation was a bit more subtle. The big dab is just easy to spot and react to, even if you were about to click a quick attack.
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Yeah but at the sametime I get why they do it, Killers should still have some way of reacting to deadhard imo.
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Sure, I just don't like how "loud" it is. A more subtle animation could work both ways, letting Killers that are looking for it react while the ones not paying attention could miss it. Then the Killer reaction would feel a bit more in-line with the Survivor making the read.
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It should still have an animation. If you don’t use DH correctly as a survivor, you don’t deserve to continue to get passive value from it in the way of the killer not knowing you already messed it up.
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It was mentioned earlier, but a "miss" animation could be put in as well. At this point, I think the activation just needs to be a bit more subtle looking, with separate "hit" and "miss" animations depending on how things go. The timing of the the ability and all the other stuff is fine.
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Sure, reading quick attacks is harder, but it's not impossible. I've definitely seen survivors who can dodge quick attacks. (Whether or not some of them are using an auto-dodge cheat is another story.) And there is commitment to do a quick attack in that you have to close additional distance versus using a lunge. You're sacrificing extra time to get closer before attacking in order to increase the chance they don't block it.
Mind you, I'm not saying the new version of Dead Hard is or isn't a good perk. It's quite possible that blocking attacks on animation alone is just shy of being good enough to be worth a perk slot, in which case I could see them either lengthening the protection window to, say, 0.75 seconds and/or giving the survivor an increased speed boost after the block to make the reward of the block better. I don't think, though, the perk should be invisible to the killer when used, you should be able to see the survivor has just done something and react accordingly if they mistime it.
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"Remove the counterplay in knowing you baited out the DH early"
Yeah, no.
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I've honestly sort of settled into the idea of a more subtle animation on start up being a good compromise option, then more expressive animations finishing off the "hits" or "misses". Good Killers would see it and react, mindless ones would miss it and DH would get value.
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